I just want to know how everybody knows everything.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by sorter

To question is the answer.

THIS! Thank you!

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by sorter

Finally! A thread that with some substance. They seem harder to find these days.

I'll refer to one of my other gems of a response:
Admit it, you really don't believe that you create your own reality...

It's all just stinkin' thinkin' as far as I'm concerned.
The reality is you repeat particular ideas to yourself,
trying to believe them, and doing that has affects.
If you like the affects, fine. If not, try a different belief.
Belief is just a tool. Truth has little to do with it. And that's the truth.

The problem people are the ones that stick to dogma and don't
care how their beliefs affect anything or anyone including themselves.

Knowing, probably more than anything else, just gets in the way of personal development.
To question is the answer.
.

There is no thinking involved in the moment to moment awareness.

Merrick

[HiImJeremy]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

There is no thinking involved in the moment to moment awareness.

Merrick

ahahah that sounds so corny

Are you in a non thinking state all the time? LOL

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Christa

I know how to drive my car, and add my 1s and 2s and tie my shoes, that type of thing, but that's not the really what we're talking about here, is it?

Really?

Originally Posted by Christa

The universe is in a grain of sand.

If the universe is in a grain of sand, can you really separate your car, your counting, your shoes and that type of thing from anything else?

Merrick

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by HiImJeremy

ahahah that sounds so corny

Are you in a non thinking state all the time? LOL

Well, is it necessary? Don't you bring something into your every day consciousness back with you, whenever you enter that state?

Merrick

[HiImJeremy]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

Well, is it necessary? Don't you bring something into your every day consciousness back with you, whenever you enter that state?

Merrick

perhaps you didn't understand...

what i said was a joke lol.

[momo3bur]

You guys...be HAPPY!

[Erin Pavlina]

This thread spawned an article:

How Do You Know?

[Christa]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

This thread spawned an article:

How Do You Know?

Thank you Erin.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

This thread spawned an article:

How Do You Know?

Good article, although, just to quibble, I'd say
"I know I have memories of my time before I incarnated"
is more belief than knowledge.

I think the test of anything that passes between our ears or through our hearts
is rather or not it helps. It sounds like you're saying that also.
Deciding if it's knowledge or belief is largely irrelevant.
Just because I get something that seems like it couldn't have come from "me"
doesn't mean it didn't.

I worry about people who "know" spirits are contacting them in some way.
That's pretty much the definition of schizophrenia.
.

[Christa]

Originally Posted by sorter

Good article, although, just to quibble, I'd say
[I]I worry about people who "know" spirits are contacting them in some way.
That's pretty much the definition of schizophrenia.
.

Perhaps schizophrenics are contacted by spirits? Who knows. Perhaps it drove them over the brink of 'sanity' in the first place.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by Christa

Perhaps schizophrenics are contacted by spirits? Who knows. Perhaps it drove them over the brink of 'sanity' in the first place.

Well, neither of us "know" so I can't argue.
Wait, that's never stopped me before.

I've definitely experienced stuff that seemed like it didn't come from me.
I think it didn't affect my sanity (well opinions vary) because I didn't
decide to know where it came from.
And I've read a fair amount on schizophrenia and how stress seems to be a key factor.
And I was stressed at the height of my experiences so I pursued relaxation techniques
instead of more contact with spirits.
.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

This thread spawned an article:

How Do You Know?

Oh thank you for telling me! Jeremy told me that he thought it might have influenced your article, so I just got done reading it and it was really wonderful. You are much better at expressing yourself clearly than I am! LOL.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

This thread spawned an article:

How Do You Know?

I know I am able to help others, and I believe that’s a good way to live a life. So I’m going to continue to do it. And if one day I find out that all the information I thought I was getting from spirit guides was actually coming from a bored alien on a spaceship who had nothing better to do than broadcast this information to me, so be it. I will have chosen to spend my time in service to others, and that’s a choice I would make regardless of what is real and what is not.

I like this attitude, Erin. However, I do not agree with you that we cannot know. There is an insurmountable difference between awareness and thinking, between reality and opinions. As far as I am concerned, how can we even talk about personal development if we don't understand the difference?

Awareness is the key. Without it, we really live in the realm of beliefs and opinions.

Merrick

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by Merrick1

I know I am able to help others, and I believe that’s a good way to live a life. So I’m going to continue to do it. And if one day I find out that all the information I thought I was getting from spirit guides was actually coming from a bored alien on a spaceship who had nothing better to do than broadcast this information to me, so be it. I will have chosen to spend my time in service to others, and that’s a choice I would make regardless of what is real and what is not.

I like this attitude, Erin. However, I do not agree with you that we cannot know. There is an insurmountable difference between awareness and thinking, between reality and opinions. As far as I am concerned, how can we even talk about personal development if we don't understand the difference?

Awareness is the key. Without it, we really live in the realm of beliefs and opinions.

Merrick

I think the issue here is the difference in the definition of "knowing."

For me, "knowing" something leaves one result and absolutely no possibilities open. Delving into the spiritual realm has surpised me, added to, and even changed my beliefs MANY, MANY, MANY times. There were things that I thought I knew.

When I was a kid, I used to know there was a big dude in the sky with a big white beard and a staff who was highly pissed at me because I ate candy even though my mother told me not to. Then I grew up, had lots of personal experiences, and now I know that I don't know any of that. LOL. I know that I believe that God is everywhere and in everything and is more of a collective experience and source than a being. I also believe it doesn't care what I believe. GOD I hope I am right about that. LOL.

I also used to know that Santa Claus put presents under my tree every Christmas and that if I didn't clean my room every night, he would know about it and give all of next years' presents to kids that were grateful for their toys. LOL. Then one Christmas we got no presents and my mom had to explain why. So that knowledge turned to former belief. And now I hear that Santa may have once been a real man, but I don't know for sure. I choose to believe it though because it's a beautiful, nostaligic thought.

I used to know that my father was a faithful, loving, and kind husband who just drank a little too much. Now I believe that he is loving and kind, but I know he's not faithful and I believe that he was an alcoholic, although he believes otherwise.

There are things I've known throughout my life, and those are just silly little examples, but there are things I've known even as an adult WITHOUT A DOUBT that all of the sudden change.

I don't BELIEVE anything is really set in stone. I also BELIEVE if we allow it to be, then we don't have room for flexibility and we rob ourselves of the possibility to learn to our fullest capacity. But I don't know any of that for sure and others might believe otherwise, and I'm ok with that.

[Merrick1]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I think the issue here is the difference in the definition of "knowing."

The issue here is awareness vs thinking.

The examples you have given (bearded dude in the sky...) aren't about knowing. They are about blind faith.

Originally Posted by momo3bur

I don't BELIEVE anything is really set in stone. I also BELIEVE if we allow it to be, then we don't have room for flexibility and we rob ourselves of the possibility to learn to our fullest capacity.

Everything is in a constant flux. To see it, we need to be aware.

Merrick

[dream]

We have all had heated discussions, especially on religion pointing out our point of view (or experience).

It also depends on the receiver, which is best to air on the side of caution as not to hurt anyone's feeling or ego. With that said we learn a lot from those who are like minded but we learn so much more when we are challenged by someone who is not as like minded in our own view.

I have had in depth discussions from two people in particular on this forum. One ended in respect on my part but they chose not to respond to me although I feel mature enough to handle what they have said to me. The other person I also gained a great respect for them and I feel it is mutual as we continue to comment and are cordial with each other. So I learned we all feel intensley about what we know, don't know and think we know.

All in all this is the greatest learning forum in my opinion and that I know. And no one better say different. (Just kidding for those who took me seriously). Like I said a lot has to do with the emotional make up of the person you are having a discussion with. I learned you air on the side of caution.

[dream]

I just thought of this thread and forgot to mention that this forum is made up of knowledgeable people in their own specialties. Just because we use our avatars I think it takes away from recognizing the fact that we do not know everything but everyone is a specialist on something. Which the post title is ironic to the forum title. (Kind of funny to me). But my point is that I see what your saying but there really are nutritionists, therapists, scientists, psychics, doctors, experienced parents and married couples, etc.

It's almost like the saying about too many Indian Chiefs and not many Indians. This forum has a lot of Indian Chiefs.

[momo3bur]

Originally Posted by dream

I just thought of this thread and forgot to mention that this forum is made up of knowledgeable people in their own specialties. Just because we use our avatars I think it takes away from recognizing the fact that we do not know everything but everyone is a specialist on something. Which the post title is ironic to the forum title. (Kind of funny to me). But my point is that I see what your saying but there really are nutritionists, therapists, scientists, psychics, doctors, experienced parents and married couples, etc.

It's almost like the saying about too many Indian Chiefs and not many Indians. This forum has a lot of Indian Chiefs.

I in no way meant to insult anyone's intelligence. I was referring more to things along the lines of spirituality and paranormal, life theories, etc.

I think I've said it above, but when I say, "I know nothing," I don't mean I think there is no valid information or available to us. What I'm saying is that I'm open to whatever. I will use my judgement based on my personal experiences to decide what is the best path for me to take; however, I am noticing that the more open to others' input and experience, the more I allow myself to learn.

So if we want to apply that to the nutritionist and doctors, for example, I could say I'm wanting to find the best diet available for me.

I'm going to say that I'm a raw foodist and this diet was recommended to me by a previous nutritionist. I've been raw for 2 years now and I visit the doctor, who says I have a low level of B12 and wants me to speak to a nutritionist. I can take multiple routes in response to this advice, but here are the two I'm going to use as examples:

1. I've been raw for 2 years, I know I feel better and look better than I have my whole life, I know this is the healthiest diet available for me, I do not need a nutritionist because there are studies upon studies upon studies backing up raw food. I refuse the visit because I'm using my experience, my resources, and my knowledge to make this decision.

2. I decide to speak to the nutritionist. Even though I feel awesome, I look awesome, I have loads of energy, my B12 is low and perhaps the nutritionist has advice for me that IS valid and could improve my health so that I do not have to have injections and do not put myself into some sort of health issue that I am not aware is possible. I am going to allow myself to admit that, being a nutritionist, that person may have some advice on how I can improve my raw diet to make it more beneficial to my health. I recognize that even though I'm pretty darn knowledgable about the raw food thing, I could possibly be doing something wrong, and this person may have information that could be very beneficial to me. Or perhaps this diet just isn't as healthy as I once thought.

So what I'm saying is that now, instead of saying, "You know what, I've been doin this for years and I'm fine. Raw food is the only way to go and I know this because I've experienced it," I will instead try to be open and say, "Ok, I will go to the nutritionist and listen to what this person has to say. My doctor has proof that my B12 levels are low, maybe this person can help me. MAYBE they know something I don't know or that the other nutritionist didn't know. I know I've experienced the benefits of Raw Food diet, but perhaps there is something more beneficial that I DON'T know about because I haven't experienced."

Being open will allow me to grow and learn, add a new experience to my list, and create a position for myself where I am able to make better nutritional choices. If it turns out that my choice of Raw Food is STILL better than what this nutritionist had to recommend to me, so be it. I would never know unless I tried.

I think the problem in this thread is that I haven't been able to fully explain myself and some of us are talking about different things and misunderstanding each other. LOL.

I'm really sorry about that.

Does this scenario, applied to something that's not necessarily so abstract as spirituality and paranormal, make it easier to see what I mean?

[nothuman]

Wow...I was gonna start a thread along similar lines and then stumbled across this one. My cognition is of late...that I find it darn near impossible to speak beyond my own personal experience.
Meaning a lot of spiritual or metaphysical discussion is redundant to me if it involves belief.
Speaking within your experience only allows for so much latitude however it does keep the ship on an even course.
I mean sometimes ( most times ) I wonder just what am I doing in a spiritual forum if I have no inclination to argue the toss over ego, nonduality, oneness etc. I simply realized that there is osmosis happening in these environments whether we are aware of it or not, a sharing is taking place. It is this level of understanding that interests me more so than mind interaction.
The accumulation of data is certainly very helpful but can be a restrictive process depending on the functionability of your mind. Realization through experience breeds an intuitive knowing that when recognised is absolute in its integrity. Rock on.

[Bonadea]

Hee hee, it's not just here.

[Moriarty]

Hi momo
Ive only just stumbled onto this thread so have missed too much to catch up.

Perhaps it all comes down to consistancy and being yourself. The truth of you rarely changes, only the ways of expressing it does over time. The brain will always want to challenge everything, and for good reason, it keeps life interesting and dynamic. Without it, we would have no need of this forum and exchanges with others. But anyway, I'm getting off topic here.

I think its more about the attitude with which we challenge others, rather then the challenge itself. Without the need to question, we would all just be happy to sit like zombies and nod our heads. Ideas, beliefs and opinions change like shifting sands unless one is staunch in wanting to cling to something because it helps them to feel safe and grounded into the world.

Its true that the more we know, the less we know. Science is always disputing theories, only to find another theory to research. I do think our universe is like a bottomless coffee, as fast as we come to resolve one avenue of thought, a new door is opened. Investing is fun...its only when our intent is to put down others, that its not.

I particularly resonated with what nothuman wrote above me. The challenge is in letting go of holding onto beliefs or wanting to prove oneself right. Once in this space...the chains aren't so easily rattled LOL . Its almost like we appear somewhat cold and detached.

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by Moriarty

Hi momo
Ive only just stumbled onto this thread so have missed too much to catch up.

Perhaps it all comes down to consistancy and being yourself. The truth of you rarely changes, only the ways of expressing it does over time. The brain will always want to challenge everything, and for good reason, it keeps life interesting and dynamic. Without it, we would have no need of this forum and exchanges with others. But anyway, I'm getting off topic here.

I think its more about the attitude with which we challenge others, rather then the challenge itself. Without the need to question, we would all just be happy to sit like zombies and nod our heads. Ideas, beliefs and opinions change like shifting sands unless one is staunch in wanting to cling to something because it helps them to feel safe and grounded into the world.

Its true that the more we know, the less we know. Science is always disputing theories, only to find another theory to research. I do think our universe is like a bottomless coffee, as fast as we come to resolve one avenue of thought, a new door is opened. Investing is fun...its only when our intent is to put down others, that its not.

I particularly resonated with what nothuman wrote above me. The challenge is in letting go of holding onto beliefs or wanting to prove oneself right. Once in this space...the chains aren't so easily rattled LOL . Its almost like we appear somewhat cold and detached.

Hey mate......yes the cyclic adventure of churning around dry concepts can certainly entertain and suck up a bit of time.....but ultimately.......
The idea of me imposing my belief on you and you either having to trade up or resist it is really just a mental pissing contest. I mean if all I have is a belief to wage war on yer lil green butt....then the whole thing is illusionary........heck this saved me a lot of time typing up a thread hahahahaha

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by nothuman

Hey mate......yes the cyclic adventure of churning around dry concepts can certainly entertain and suck up a bit of time.....but ultimately.......
The idea of me imposing my belief on you and you either having to trade up or resist it is really just a mental pissing contest. I mean if all I have is a belief to wage war on yer lil green butt....then the whole thing is illusionary........heck this saved me a lot of time typing up a thread hahahahaha

hehe

There's intelligence and there's knowledge. I don't believe that the two hold common ground...although some do. Intellect (outer)~~~knowledge (inner).

When intellect is used to confound and conform, it disintegrates into a word-war...I can sound more intelligent then you! blah...! Knowledge applies!

Glad I could be of service in saving you time on a new thread

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by nothuman

My cognition is of late...that I find it darn near impossible to speak beyond my own personal experience.

Get used to that.

Originally Posted by nothuman

Meaning a lot of spiritual or metaphysical discussion is redundant to me if it involves belief.

Yes. I've been shedding beliefs for a while now. I still apparently have some very deep, very subtle ones (they keep popping up to be addressed so they can be released), but for the most part, I mostly just have "best guesses based on current assessment of perceived experience" to go on. Happily, that seems to be enough. And the fewer beliefs I have, the more fluid my reality is, so it's all good.

Originally Posted by nothuman

I wonder just what am I doing in a spiritual forum if I have no inclination to argue the toss over ego, nonduality, oneness etc. I simply realized that there is osmosis happening in these environments whether we are aware of it or not, a sharing is taking place. It is this level of understanding that interests me more so than mind interaction.

So beautifully stated. I know exactly what you mean.

Originally Posted by nothuman

The accumulation of data is certainly very helpful but can be a restrictive process depending on the functionability of your mind. Realization through experience breeds an intuitive knowing that when recognised is absolute in its integrity.

I collect data now in the same way that I collect rocks. I like rocks, always have. I find them interesting. They're all unique, and some are really beautiful, and some aren't so beautiful but are still interesting. So I collect them. Same with knowledge data. It's interesting. I like to collect it. And while some of it is pretty darned sparkly and interesting, in the end I know that it's just like collecting rocks.

[momo3bur]

This is beautiful, guys. Thank you so much for revamping this thread and giving such wonderful advice and POV's.

I'm still in a place where I've accepted that I really know nothing at all, but that my personal experiences are given to me in order to grow mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc. I love this feeling, it is one of freedom and peace, so I think I'll stay here.

I understand why as human beings we have a desire to understand, so I'm done arguing with myself about WHY people get so caught up in meanings and philosophy. It's all about what each person needs at that time in their lives. All of these theories and beliefs that individuals conform to are fulfilling a need for comfort and understanding and allow living in such a way that is beyond the life they were living before. Enriching, if you will, and that's what this entire existence is about. Finding beauty and meaning in everything.

I think what's happened with me in particular is that I've had things thrown at me rapidly that have caused me to question my own beliefs. After playing target dummy one too many times, you just surrender and learn to take it all in as truth and accept that in the grander scheme of things, life, death, creation is beyond control of any human being. Of course we have some control, but those things that are there after us were here before us, and that will not change. I wish I knew exactly what those things are, but I don't, and I'm perfectly happy with that feeling.

So I guess I'm saying just ride the rollercoaster and throw yo hands in the air...and make sure to smile REALLY big for the blurry camera that catches you while you pee your pants on the big plunge.

[Angelz]

Momo,
All you can do is keep learning, even when you feel like there is nothing left to learn, keep seeking the knowledge. Many of us have this knowledge as you said from reading books, but mostly from our personal experiences and talking with others. We all have different gifts and experiences who shape us into who we are today and that is the true definition of our beliefs. If you have experienced something that another has not then you are of course going to defend what you know to be true. We are all very friendly here and I hope you will stick around and not only learn from us but allow us to learn from you as well.

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by momo3bur

This is beautiful, guys. Thank you so much for revamping this thread and giving such wonderful advice and POV's.

I'm still in a place where I've accepted that I really know nothing at all, but that my personal experiences are given to me in order to grow mentally, emotionally, spiritually, etc. I love this feeling, it is one of freedom and peace, so I think I'll stay here.

I understand why as human beings we have a desire to understand, so I'm done arguing with myself about WHY people get so caught up in meanings and philosophy. It's all about what each person needs at that time in their lives. All of these theories and beliefs that individuals conform to are fulfilling a need for comfort and understanding and allow living in such a way that is beyond the life they were living before. Enriching, if you will, and that's what this entire existence is about. Finding beauty and meaning in everything.

I think what's happened with me in particular is that I've had things thrown at me rapidly that have caused me to question my own beliefs. After playing target dummy one too many times, you just surrender and learn to take it all in as truth and accept that in the grander scheme of things, life, death, creation is beyond control of any human being. Of course we have some control, but those things that are there after us were here before us, and that will not change. I wish I knew exactly what those things are, but I don't, and I'm perfectly happy with that feeling.

So I guess I'm saying just ride the rollercoaster and throw yo hands in the air...and make sure to smile REALLY big for the blurry camera that catches you while you pee your pants on the big plunge.

Hey moomoo........I've bolded the really good stuff. So far as I'm concerned anyway.

To surrender to not knowing a darn thing in life for sure took me decades and was my salvation. It enabled me to question everything I had taken on and divest myself of it. I realized that I could not know anything for certain in life...so giving up trying gave me back a lot of attention units. What I found was that the unloading rather than the loading led to true understanding.

Your rollercoaster amalogy to me talks about allowing yourself to be a human having a human experience. It baffles the crap out of me at times why we grab a body to play this game and seem to spend all of our time trying to transcend the human experience......why??? Because we read somewhere that we should be above the bodies expressions....in denying this human experience does it lead us to .... true realization. For me I've found the opposite. By acceptance and as you say surrender we allow ourselves to open to all aspects of not only the tactile experience of having a body but all the gifts that come with it........God I carry on at times.......

[nothuman]

Originally Posted by ButterflyWoman

Get used to that.


Yes. I've been shedding beliefs for a while now. I still apparently have some very deep, very subtle ones (they keep popping up to be addressed so they can be released), but for the most part, I mostly just have "best guesses based on current assessment of perceived experience" to go on. Happily, that seems to be enough. And the fewer beliefs I have, the more fluid my reality is, so it's all good.



I collect data now in the same way that I collect rocks. I like rocks, always have. I find them interesting. They're all unique, and some are really beautiful, and some aren't so beautiful but are still interesting. So I collect them. Same with knowledge data. It's interesting. I like to collect it. And while some of it is pretty darned sparkly and interesting, in the end I know that it's just like collecting rocks.

Crikey Butterfly Sheila .......

Thank you for your thoughts.

I find now that I have a lot more "space" to operate as beliefs manifest to be addressed. They don't "bite" as hard as they used to and they are more to do with behavioural rather than the big foundational issues.

I don't think I am quite with the program so far as rock collecting is concerned, I have been enjoying dancing around outside of the mind as much as possible and smashing them more so than collecting them........things can change though........and they do a lot......

[Moriarty]

[QUOTE]

Originally Posted by nothuman

I find now that I have a lot more "space" to operate as beliefs manifest to be addressed. They don't "bite" as hard as they used to and they are more to do with behavioural rather than the big foundational issues.

And the deeper you go into letting go, the more detached you become from this world and its wobblies.