What do you guys think about James Randi's test?

[Minerva]

I have been doing a lot of reading and such cause there is that skeptical side of me and I noticed that John Edwards and Sylvia Browne are main targets of the skeptics. I mean, goodness people are really out to get Sylvia Browne. I won't post up my opinion of her, but I can't understand all the negativity towards her....actually I do in a sense since she keeps claiming over and over of her abilities and keeps getting things wrong with the actual skeptics themselves: Randi, Leon Jaroff, and with others.

But besides that, I wondered about Randi's test and how Browne said she would do it like three times and kept backing out. And others who have tried never passed the preliminary tests.

I want to know why is this the case? Why are psychics afraid of James Randi or do not prove themselves very well with the skeptics or don't get far with his tests? It makes me really wonder. Kind of like what happened with Houdini and the pack he made with his wife before he died and not one medium or psychic was truly able to connect with him.

Thank you for your ideas and opinions.

[VinceG]

James Randi is serving a different cross section of society than Sylvia Browne/James Edwards. It's likely the latter's received specific instructions on how to handle Randi. All are doing wonderful service to humanity.

[ChrisL]

Minerva - To be truly intuitive, we need to drop our need to be right about anything and just be an open conduit to receive information. The difficulty with any psychic test, as well as with picking the winning lottery numbers, is that we have a huge need to be right about the information, which will block any real information - not just accessing information in the first place, but then our interpretation of it.

Anytime I'm working with students, the need to be right has to be covered in the beginning portion of the training. Our need to be right is also connected with our need to be loved/approved, to be externally-validated, because since childhood we started trading our authenticity to "fit in" to survive and succeed. Our need to be right can really show up when we try accessing information about ourselves (i.e. "That's not me!", "I'm not wrong", "I didn't say/do that!", etc) - and we really have to deal with it if we're going to be in service to others.

The need to be right is a huge conflict in our collective mind - like a virus. I've seen it kill relationships quicker than anything else, as well as stop us from attracting what we want, and block us from seeing ourselves and progressing spiritually.

And the energy of the client as well as the environment can make a huge difference for the intuitive reader, especially to those people who are empathic and really "feel" energy. I remember when I first started out, I was doing free readings for a fundraiser for the Battered Women's Shelter in Atlanta. One women came up with her arms crossed and said "Read me". Her energy was so completely closed that I gave up after a few attempts and said "You win - I can't do this". The next person was so happy to see me, she said "I've been waiting all night to talk with you!". I started getting information before she even sat down.

I've also seen intuitives give information in a way that the clients could accept. One woman I watched was giving Tarot readings, but what she was saying was vastly different that the interpretations I knew from the cards. After she was done with the client and we were alone, I smiled and said "You did a great reading - and you weren't reading the cards at all were you?" She smiled and said "Actually no, don't tell anyone, but I use the cards so that the client thinks I'm reading them, but I'm actually feeling the energy of the person". We both laughed and agreed that whatever worked for her was great.

[Minerva]

@Vince: Good point there about both are helping humanity.

@Chris:

To be truly intuitive, we need to drop our need to be right about anything and just be an open conduit to receive information. The difficulty with any psychic test, as well as with picking the winning lottery numbers, is that we have a huge need to be right about the information, which will block any real information - not just accessing information in the first place, but then our interpretation of it.

Ah, Good point! Thank you!! That makes a lot of sense.

Anytime I'm working with students, the need to be right has to be covered in the beginning portion of the training. Our need to be right is also connected with our need to be loved/approved, to be externally-validated, because since childhood we started trading our authenticity to "fit in" to survive and succeed. Our need to be right can really show up when we try accessing information about ourselves (i.e. "That's not me!", "I'm not wrong", "I didn't say/do that!", etc) - and we really have to deal with it if we're going to be in service to others.

The need to be right is a huge conflict in our collective mind - like a virus. I've seen it kill relationships quicker than anything else, as well as stop us from attracting what we want, and block us from seeing ourselves and progressing spiritually.

So true!

And the energy of the client as well as the environment can make a huge difference for the intuitive reader, especially to those people who are empathic and really "feel" energy. I remember when I first started out, I was doing free readings for a fundraiser for the Battered Women's Shelter in Atlanta. One women came up with her arms crossed and said "Read me". Her energy was so completely closed that I gave up after a few attempts and said "You win - I can't do this". The next person was so happy to see me, she said "I've been waiting all night to talk with you!". I started getting information before she even sat down.

Oh, I have heard about things like that.

I've also seen intuitives give information in a way that the clients could accept. One woman I watched was giving Tarot readings, but what she was saying was vastly different that the interpretations I knew from the cards. After she was done with the client and we were alone, I smiled and said "You did a great reading - and you weren't reading the cards at all were you?" She smiled and said "Actually no, don't tell anyone, but I use the cards so that the client thinks I'm reading them, but I'm actually feeling the energy of the person". We both laughed and agreed that whatever worked for her was great.

That is extremely true. When I first started tarot that confused the daylights out of me. I was like, "I thought that card meant this." But I learned it is not so much what the card means but what the individual reader gets from it-- intuition Hey, I actually think I remember you telling me this story on the phone one time That is so cool!

Thanks guys!

[Summerbreeze]

'Unpopular' science ( also governments) already know about this stuff, but finally everyone makes up his own mind with whatever they do in their life (media conditioning vs independent experience for example). Wanting to be right - important point, I catch myself still doing it so often, roll my eyes and say "I forgive myself".
Do you remember kids in kindergarten debating over something being true or not? It's not that much different, just that the stakes are higher.
I think that there are several factors making it difficult, for example when a belief system of someone who is against something is participating in creation of something that would be against his beliefs, just take here quantum physics as example that different observers create different outcomes.


~sb

[Lauxa]

I'm impressed that no one has crashed this thread yet with "we've talked about this before, yada yada yada" and the responses so far have been sincere and thought provoking. Thanks for that.

[Minerva]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I'm impressed that no one has crashed this thread yet with "we've talked about this before, yada yada yada" and the responses so far have been sincere and thought provoking. Thanks for that.

You guys talked about this before? Where is the search button so I can find the original topic?

[Erin Pavlina]

LOL this subject comes up once every few months and we've discussed it to death on other threads.

[Minerva]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

LOL this subject comes up once every few months and we've discussed it to death on other threads.

haha I can just imagine. Well then I know what I will be doing tomorrow: scanning around for those threads

Thanks guys!

[Le Roi]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I'm impressed that no one has crashed this thread yet with "we've talked about this before, yada yada yada" and the responses so far have been sincere and thought provoking. Thanks for that.

Lol, that was my first reaction too when I saw this thread topic come up! Maybe we should put a sticky a FAQ in the Psychic forum and links to the old threads. .

[desertrat]

It is my understanding that James Randy does not rely have the $1 mil. and takes it as more as a joke. This is what I have heard. desert rat

[ButterflyWoman]

Originally Posted by Le Roi

that was my first reaction too when I saw this thread topic come up!

Me, too.

Originally Posted by Le Roi

Maybe we should put a sticky a FAQ in the Psychic forum and links to the old threads. .

That's a great idea, IMHO.

[HiImJeremy]

The man is a fool. Naturally the challenge is also a lie.

[Richful]

Originally Posted by HiImJeremy

The man is a fool. Naturally the challenge is also a lie.

Hmm, gotta disagree with you here man. James Randi isn't a fool, he's a magician and most of them are pretty clever people. That and the way the rules are set for the challenge suggests he's at least as clever as your average corporation, all details in the fine print which you may or may not get to read. I don't think the challenge is rigged but I suspect the million dollars might be.

Skepticism itself isn't foolish, it's very clear headed. The world is full of illusions and the clearer you see the better you're able to navigate this life.

Originally Posted by VinceG

All are doing wonderful service to humanity.

Thing is some people think the same thing of James Randi. There are fakes out there and this man is dedicated to proving they are. Anyone who is faking being psychic is doing humanity a great disservice.

Randi himself isn't a paragon of justice and I suspect (call it an intuition ) that he's actually a very angry man. Not sure what psychics did to provoke his ire though.

[HiImJeremy]

Originally Posted by Richful

Hmm, gotta disagree with you here man. James Randi isn't a fool, he's a magician and most of them are pretty clever people. That and the way the rules are set for the challenge suggests he's at least as clever as your average corporation, all details in the fine print which you may or may not get to read. I don't think the challenge is rigged but I suspect the million dollars might be.

I actually never meant to say anything against the mans intelligence. I went and looked up 'fool' and realised what it meant :S lol.

Fool, in Jeremy's world anyway, means to me ' ........' or '.....' lol. Sorry for the misunderstanding.

EDIT: I replaced the words with dots. Let's just say i'm not a fan, instead. lol

[desertrat]

It is my guess that James Randy does believe in psychic and occult matters and is using them to protect him self or some one would have done something to him just to prove a point , but that is just my guess. desert rat

[Richful]

Originally Posted by desertrat

It is my guess that James Randy does believe in psychic and occult matters and is using them to protect him self or some one would have done something to him just to prove a point , but that is just my guess. desert rat

Yep he must be a master wizard in secret. How else could he be fending off all those attacks from angry witches and wizards??

Or he's a cynical man, taking a stand against what he sees as potentially damaging magical thinking and being a jerk while doing it. Naturally he has no fans in a forum titled Psychic & Paranormal

I'm all for testing for psychic powers, especially with channelers. What is wrong with trying to be accurate?

[Andrew Gubb]

Well, I've heard from people who tried to claim the money that the contest was rigged. The rules are set so it's impossible to win.

Otherwise, I'm sure someone would have claimed the money already. There are plenty enough people capable of providing total and final proof of so-called supernatural abilities.

[Joebenz]

Remote viewer Ed dames wanted to take this challenge. But everytime he called randi, he never got an awnser back...

[desertrat]

We might project into his mind the web adress of this forum or a phone number of a forum member, just to see what would hapen . I do think tho that he is using some form of psychic protection. desert rat

[Lauxa]

I just remembered that as well as being "discussed to death" on these forums, Erin dedicated a whole blog post to the topic. Here it is if you're interested:

Ask Erin: If psychic phenomenon is real, why can’t it be proven?

Maybe another item to add to the sticky?

[Minerva]

Originally Posted by Lauxa

I just remembered that as well as being "discussed to death" on these forums, Erin dedicated a whole blog post to the topic. Here it is if you're interested:

Ask Erin: If psychic phenomenon is real, why can’t it be proven?

Maybe another item to add to the sticky?

Thank you Lauxa!

[desertrat]

Here are some links James Randi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Challenge Application desert rat

[Blueskied]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Otherwise, I'm sure someone would have claimed the money already. There are plenty enough people capable of providing total and final proof of so-called supernatural abilities.

Where are they? All the dowsers and people who can detect electricity running through cables with their bare hands have failed miserably when tested so far.

[Minerva]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

Where are they? All the dowsers and people who can detect electricity running through cables with their bare hands have failed miserably when tested so far.

That's true and the challenge doesn't seem rigged. It made sense with how many the guy with dowser had to get right to overcome the factor of guesswork and he agreed to the terms of the dowsing.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by Richful

Thing is some people think the same thing of James Randi. There are fakes out there and this man is dedicated to proving they are. Anyone who is faking being psychic is doing humanity a great disservice.

Randi himself isn't a paragon of justice and I suspect (call it an intuition ) that he's actually a very angry man. Not sure what psychics did to provoke his ire though.

Those with access to information from psychic sources find a sense of certainty that's needed to progress usefully through life. Those without need to cultivate that certainty somewhere else, and figures like Randi allow them to.

[desertrat]

With gold at $1600 or more an oz. I may just get out my dowsing rods and go look for gold. There is the Bradshaw mts. north of me and it is said there is still a lot of gold in them , so who needs James Randi's $ 1 mil. desert rat

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Blueskied

Where are they? All the dowsers and people who can detect electricity running through cables with their bare hands have failed miserably when tested so far.

There are plenty of people who have succeeded in scientific tests to demonstrate distance viewing, healing by prayer, affecting random numbers with the mind, etc. Skeptics just learn to avoid this evidence just like you have

[Richful]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

There are plenty of people who have succeeded in scientific tests to demonstrate distance viewing, healing by prayer, affecting random numbers with the mind, etc. Skeptics just learn to avoid this evidence just like you have

Do we need to have a talk about "small effects", "experimental design" and "P values"?

I don't avoid evidence, nor do I avoid chasing down scientific studies and reading them in context. I'd be curious about any studies you've read of "healing by prayer" being successful, because I have read several and the conclusions were "no more than chance" effect, meaning nothing at all

The successes you refer to are based around the concept of rejecting the null hypothesis. Meaning rejecting the hypothesis that "no relationship exists between two measured phenomena". This is all statistical analysis and the "successes" are at the very limits of what can be called "statistically significant", in both affecting random number generation and distance viewing.

So even taking these as "proof" is a giant leap away from "certainty" about anything psychic. To make an analogy, the assumption is that the "hits" being detected are like listening to a radio that is tuned between frequencies - you can almost hear the music, but there's so much white noise you can barely make it out - in fact it could all be noise, it's too weak to tell with any certainty

[Andrew Gubb]

Well, if you've seen someone move an object with their mind, wouldn't that be proof?

I've seen enough proof in my own life to be sure - and I was skeptic before. And I've heard of studies that have been enough to convert other skeptics - diehard ones like you. One of these studies was conducted by a skeptic to try and prove these ideas wrong. Instead he proved them right. It was a test with random numbers effected by the mind if I remember correctly.

I can't be bothered to do a google scholar search because you can do it yourself. If you want to explore, do it. If you don't, then enjoy being right and not having to challenge your beliefs.