What do you think about Qi gong ?

[escapee]

YouTube - Qi,move things without touch!believe it?

I 've read plenty of Qi gong figthing in the Classic Mandarin "novels" which i thought are nothing more than just the eastern fantasy. but now I'm seeing advanced Qi gong demonstration in the youtube video that freaks me out. Is this Qi gong for real or it's just a planned magic show ?

[Dating Specialist]

Yeah I have a tendency to believe in that. Qi gong is really about knowing how to "deploy" and generate the internal energy in our body. But to attain that level needs many many years of practice.

[Ulrik von Bek]

I don't really know and it does not really matter for me. Qi gong can do (and has done for me) things that are a lot more miraculous than moving bricks. Superpowers will naturally follow if you can have mental silence, emotional freedom and good health.

I do not agree with Dating Specialist in that generating Qi necessarily requires years of practice. It really depends on the level of teaching. Of course the practice will grow and deepen during years of consistent practice.

[Richful]

Wow I just mentioned QiGong in the Spirituality forum... AMAZING!
Must be my Qi power!
Like I said in that post; many kinds of QiGong exist. Depends what you want it to do.
Unhealthy, use Medical QiGong. Seeking enlightenment? Buddhist QiGong!
Want kick ass Martial Arts? Iron Shirt QiGong! Or Taijiquan!
Immortality? Daoist QiGong! And the list goes on... and on....

Still all jokes aside it can be very effective and won't take forever to learn. You do need to practice continuously though if you want good Gong.
Gong - deep skill achieved through persistent practice (or thereabouts).
Above all find an instructor who knows what there doing, as with most energy work you can harm yourself.

And remmber kids:
Taijiquan: It's not just for old people

[TechnoGuyRob]

In other news, Criss Angel can cut a woman in half and put her back together again! Really. He's using his powerful Qi/Chi.

I guess sometimes we all wish telekinesis was possible, though!

[Zach]

I used to be interested in this stuff, until the website I frequented suddenly disappeared

[Richful]

While I do wish telekenesis was true Rob, I do see your point.
All I can say about qi is that I have felt it myself travelling through a pathway known in Chinese Medicine as the microcosmic orbit.

This runs from the tip of the tongue, down the front of your body to a point three fingers below your navel called your Dan Tien (elixir field). It then runs further down to your perenium and then up through the spine and around the head to a point just above the front teeth. You need to touch your tongue to the roof of your mouth to achieve a circuit, just like electricity, or Qi can built up in your head and cause headaches (which I have experienced).

I haven't felt much, but it is increasing over time. Can I lift cars? No. Cut people in two with my mind? No. Do I want to? No. There are plenty of claims made about the powers of QiGong masters, just watch any hong kong cinema. I can't comment on any given my level of experience. But I'm willing to suspend judgement till I've trained enough to have some effect. Even the QiGiong masters themselves disagree about what can be achieved.

There is a bunch of techniques in the chinese martial arts known as "vagabond skills". These are seemingly impossible acts that "ordinary" people can't do e.g. rolling (not slicing)a live blade across your stomach without harm, breaking bricks on yourself and other street performance style displays.
They are not mysterious, in each case it's an illusion to fool the unwary, there is no Qi power involved. Wonder why Vagabond skills?

I once attended a workshop where the instructor claimed QiGong could heal almost any illness. I was very skeptical, his advice to me and the group was this: Whatever benefits a system claims use that as your measurement for it's effectiveness, train as you're taught for a year and if you see none of the claimed benefits drop it. Either your training is flawed or the benefits are not real. But you must measure it from within your actions, we can talk all we want, but nothing can be judged except by action.

Isn't science based on trial?

[MartialDev]

Interesting video! Here are some others:

Qigong Category - Martial Development

[Michael Chui]

Most vagabond skills (never heard that term before) seem pretty easily explainable by physics. The whole breaking bricks thing in Karate is one such. It isn't actually anything special, except for the person who learns how to do it. I've always preferred Bruce Lee's comments on it. I've personally studied under Jim Mather at CKA; when he was younger, he went on television and caught arrows shot at him. Again, explainable by physics.

One book I enjoyed quite a bit was Fritjof Capra's "The Tao of Physics", in which he shows how some of the latest insights in physics are interpretable from Hinduist philosophy. It wouldn't surprise me to learn that Chinese martial artists discovered more applicable knowledge; a lot could have been transmitted between the various cultures, and pieces fall into place, sometimes.

I'd recommend training in Aikido or Tai Chi. The beginner stuff will do. It will show you that it's not a joke; the interpretation of what you experience is, of course, completely up to you.

[nikewong]

it's kind of martial art.. but you got to practise for a very long time in order to do that

[Michael Chui]

It's inaccurate to say it's a martial art; it merely has martial applications. It's a philosophy that includes the bodily-kinesthetic principle and is understood through experience.

Ever think that this guy might simply be good at Intention-Manifestation?

[Richful]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

It's inaccurate to say it's a martial art; it merely has martial applications. It's a philosophy that includes the bodily-kinesthetic principle and is understood through experience.

Ever think that this guy might simply be good at Intention-Manifestation?

It's true it is inaccurate to say it's a martial art, it has martial applications but many other applications too.
One of the deeper principles in QiGong and Taijiquan is that the mind/intent leads the Qi and the Qi leads the body, sound familiar? Where your awareness goes the Qi flows. You can move chi with movements and breathing, but the mind/intent is ultimately the highest way to do it.

If you step away from martial applications as an example the physics are harder to apply, especially in medical QiGong. That's been a hot debate for a long time... can't watch someone healed over six months of practice on youtube. You could periodically check in, but how do you know he's really feeling the Qi move?

I still say try it yourself, direct experience is the way to go. Might not prove everything correct, but it gets us closer to the truth.

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by Ulrik von Bek

I do not agree with Dating Specialist in that generating Qi necessarily requires years of practice. It really depends on the level of teaching. Of course the practice will grow and deepen during years of consistent practice.

Yeah agree. Sometimes time is not the factor to determine one's level of learning and enlightenment. Same goes for relationships! Love can't be measured with time, though the longer the relationship is, the more fond memories we should have

Originally Posted by Richful

I still say try it yourself, direct experience is the way to go. Might not prove everything correct, but it gets us closer to the truth.

Agree too! Only when we personally feel the effect of directing our Qi through the different techniques of breathing for example can we get closer to the truth.

Hey, I think Qi gong is also about learning to concentrate and focus with clarity in our minds too! What you guys think?

Originally Posted by TechnoGuyRob

In other news, Criss Angel can cut a woman in half and put her back together again! Really. He's using his powerful Qi/Chi.

I guess sometimes we all wish telekinesis was possible, though!

Well, true or not I can't say. But I have a friend who personally testified that he saw with his very own eyes a man bending a metal fork using his "eye power". My friend confirmed the fork was made of steel because no matter how hard he wanted to bend it, it stayed fixed, until this man used his power to bend it.

He further awed my friend by reinstating the fork back to shape using the same force. Could this be a demonstration of telekinesis?

[TechnoGuyRob]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Well, true or not I can't say. But I have a friend who personally testified that he saw with his very own eyes a man bending a metal fork using his "eye power". My friend confirmed the fork was made of steel because no matter how hard he wanted to bend it, it stayed fixed, until this man used his power to bend it.

He further awed my friend by reinstating the fork back to shape using the same force. Could this be a demonstration of telekinesis?

I have seen the exact same thing done. Literally, the fork was bending in front of our eyes, and he let us try to bend it ourselves. Turned out to be a magic trick, so I'm skeptic about these sort of things.

[WanderingOak]

While I have no personal experience with the applications of Qi-Gong demonstrated in the video, I do have some close friends who have had similar experiences and have even performed these feats themselves. I believe such feats are possible through the manipulation of Qi, Prana, Maegn or whatever you would like to call it. As to why a practitioner of such arts would debase himself by doing 'parlor tricks' on the news, even if there is actual talent involved, I have no idea. For those who are skeptical, Steve has a good article on that.

[julien]

I now live in China, not too far from the Wudangshan mountains where internal kung-fu was born (and this notion of Qi). One day, I was training pushing weights (series of 15 reps with 200Lbs, which is already quite good considering I weight only 160 Lbs). I saw this skinny 80 year old guy coming to me, adding some 20 Lbs + on the bar, and pushing it for 15 reps+. As I looked at him after the exercise, I really fought he was some kind of starving beggar or something. Thruth is, I was told afterwards that he is a kung-fu master (internal style).
After 7 years of karate, I plan to switch to kung-fu very soon, but deciding between external/internal style is difficult.

[MartialDev]

I can help you decide: there is no such thing as "external martial arts".

[Ulrik von Bek]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

Hey, I think Qi gong is also about learning to concentrate and focus with clarity in our minds too! What you guys think?

I think you're very right! Mental clarity ("qi gong state of mind," if you will) is a prerequisite for generating qi flow. When I practice, I don't do any movements if I find that my mind is confused and scattered, but will simply stand still (the Wuji posture). It has been said that Qi gong has three components: movement, breath and mind. Some schools use visualization for the mental aspect, but simple relaxed and clear mind works also very well.

The silence, clarity and concentration gained from practice will also carry on to your work, relationships and other mundane activities.

[oliodu]

I practiced Qi Gong before and believed in it. But this old guy is definitely a fake. I did a bit search and found he already admitted those were magic tricks. And yes, the secret is in that table. All sort of magnetism put into action. If you read chinese, here is the article.
http://big5.phoenixtv.com:82/gate/bi...778f2326420874


That said, QiGong is truly amazing. I saw many incredible things with my own eyes.

[oliodu]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

I can help you decide: there is no such thing as "external martial arts".

Every Chinese, even kids, know there are internal martial arts (內功) and external martial arts (外功)。 WuDang (武當) is the representative of the "internal" school, and Shaolin (少林) is the representative of the "external" school.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by oliodu

Every Chinese, even kids, know there are internal martial arts (內功) and external martial arts (外功)。 WuDang (武當) is the representative of the "internal" school, and Shaolin (少林) is the representative of the "external" school.

Even Chinese people are wrong sometimes!

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

Even Chinese people are wrong sometimes!

Why do you say that, MartialDev? As far as history shows, the internal schools of Bagua, Tai Chi & Hsing Yi classify themselves as internal schools, and the rest (Wing Chun, Shaolin, Baji etc) classify themselves as external schools.

Not to say that they don't have elements of each, Shaolin does qi gong for eg and Tai Chi has some pretty strong strikes.

Unless you mean that conceptually, all martial arts are one martial arts and there is no distinction between hard and soft, then yes, I'd agree. But that's a conceptual philosophy rather than a useful categorization that has been in use for centuries.

[Richful]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Unless you mean that conceptually, all martial arts are one martial arts and there is no distinction between hard and soft, then yes, I'd agree. But that's a conceptual philosophy rather than a useful categorization that has been in use for centuries.

I wouldn't agree with the "in use for centuries" bit there. Many martial arts, chinese martial arts especially, have a grand mythical fable about their beginnings way back in the day. But they've only been popularised in recent years. Like Taijiquan, not every second person practiced Taiji in china in the 19th century it only became popularised toward the end of the 19th and beginning of the 20th century. The man to thank is IMO primarily Yang Cheng Fu.

As far as internal and external goes, do we mean styles that us Qi vs. those that don't? Shaolinquan and other "hard" styles use Iron Shirt QiGong. Qi is lead by awareness. What about misdirection? If we learn how to lead our opponents attention then is that an internal style? Terms like internal and external are nice but we need to define what is specifically meant.

There's also NeiDan (internal) and WeiDan (external) QiGong, both move Qi.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by Alvin

Why do you say that, MartialDev? As far as history shows, the internal schools of Bagua, Tai Chi & Hsing Yi classify themselves as internal schools, and the rest (Wing Chun, Shaolin, Baji etc) classify themselves as external schools.

Not to say that they don't have elements of each, Shaolin does qi gong for eg and Tai Chi has some pretty strong strikes.

Unless you mean that conceptually, all martial arts are one martial arts and there is no distinction between hard and soft, then yes, I'd agree. But that's a conceptual philosophy rather than a useful categorization that has been in use for centuries.

Internal vs. external is not a useful categorization. The definitions do not stand up to any scrutiny. This categorization was invented by a bookworm, and has been perpetuated mostly by poseurs.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

Internal vs. external is not a useful categorization. The definitions do not stand up to any scrutiny. This categorization was invented by a bookworm, and has been perpetuated mostly by poseurs.

Bookworm? Why and how? What you say sounds interesting, but I wouldn't change my mind unless you can elaborate on your point.

[Richful]

Well right here we're writing in english, do chinese martial artists also use the words internal and external? What words do they use? Is it an exact translation, or does the word have several meanings, as most do.

MartialDev could you give us an example of these terms not standing up to scrutiny? BTW Cool blog.

[Michael Chui]

I've always defined an external martial art as one that relied primarily on muscle strength, and an internal one as one that did not. For instance, every attack I know if Shotokan Karate is purely muscle-based, though after I learned other styles, I started to weave other things in.

But the book I got the terms from is definitely not authoritative, nor do I really care.

What is meant by "useful categorization"? I would say that mine is one, but it hasn't been used by others in this thread.

[Richful]

Here's some styles I've always heard of as internal: Taijiquan, XingYi, BaGua, WingTsun (an earlier post said external, but I've never heard that), Aikido, Ninjutsu, Chin Na, Pinjat Silat.
Now external: Shaolin Long Fist, Karate, Tae Kwon Do, Muay Thai, Boxing, Bajiquan.
Here's the general theory I was originally told: Internal refers to cultivation of Qi energy within your body as a force in martial practice. Cultivate Qi, express Qi. External uses only muscular strength and thus is "weaker" or less powerful (End of theory).
Course there are examples of Qi (or Ki, mind energy, etc.) cultivation in "external" arts i.e. Shaolin, high level Karate. Of course everything is a form of energy, learning how to hit someone in the right spot is energy cultivation.

Qi cultivation requires mental cultivation for martial execution, mental cultivation oocurs in "external" arts. Tactics, visualisation and even training yourself to block mental disciplines, they becoome body/energy disciplines when you can simply choose for the action to occur.

My question to the forum: Is the difference between internal and external the culivation of Qi/energy? Or is there more to it?

[mind-energy]

I'm going to my first QiGong practice today.
I hope it will be good over time.

[Cael]

Originally Posted by Richful

My question to the forum: Is the difference between internal and external the culivation of Qi/energy? Or is there more to it?

I think that it goes like this. Back then there were two beliefs. You can either train yourself up internally which will then improve your external strenght, or you can train yourself up externally which will then help with your qi. And the ultimate state should be having both the internal and external state balanced.

I would think that it's because different person with different abilities may find one of the ways easier or more suitable to train up. But it seems like the teachings nowadays overly focused on just one side of the stories.