OBE's or Delusions?

[Radical]

Although some people on here claim to have experienced astral projections and OBE's, I'll have to be a bit more sceptical. I can bring myself to believing in lucid dreams, as that sounds fairly plausible, but the idea of your spirit (which I don't believe in anyway since I'm an atheist) actually leaving your body yet still attached by a thin thread, travelling to other dimensions and fighting with evil demons, sounds utterly ridiculous to me.

I will never be able to believe in OBE's unless I either experience them myself or some scientist somehow comes up with a credible scientific explanation for them. People claiming to have experienced OBE's will never be able to prove them as anything other than a delusion, and to an intelligent logical person with no personal experience of them, OBE's sound no more probable than the existence of the Easter bunny.


[Moved from here: Lucid dreaming, astral projection, out of body experiences, etc.

[Jill]

You will never be able to prove them as anything other than a delusion, and to an intelligent logical person they sound no more probable than the Easter bunny.

They do sound difficult to believe, but you're basically saying that people like Erin aren't intelligent or logical, which doesn't seem quite right.

Just because you haven't experienced something, or it sounds too difficult to believe, it means it's dumb?

[RandomJohn]

I find a lot of intelligent and logical people who believe in the existence of OBEs and astral projection.

There is the common notion that parapsychology has the best designed experiments in any field because the design is more scrutinized than any other field when the results are made public.

[Radical]

You're right they do sound difficult to believe, but does that make them dumb? Yes, unless you have some credible proof for there existence other than a few people who claim to have experienced them. Many great scientific minds have spent their lives trying to understand the universe to give us the laws of physics. Astral projections and OBE's would totally undermine this and so it is not unreasonable to be very sceptical.

[Jill]

and so it is not unreasonable to be very sceptical.

No, it's never unreasonable to be skeptical.

But it is unreasonable to call stuff that you don't understand dumb. Or to call those who do understand it dumb.

[Radical]

I'm not calling anyone dumb, I just have more faith in the convictions of the world's greatest scientists than a few so called psychics whose beliefs undermine everything they stand for. I am a strong believer in truth, and will not delude myself into believing something without credible scientific proof.

[Erin Pavlina]

Someone once said, "When you decide what is you close yourself off to what may be."

If you strongly believe something is impossible, no amount of proof will persuade you.

I think skeptics owe it to themselves to try something out for themselves before they decide it's not possible.

I too am skeptical of anything I haven't experienced myself. But I remain open to experiences and believe that anything is possible.

[Vinny]

First of all, one must have an open mind. Some poeple need to shut their mouth and open their minds. There is so much out here learn and absorb. If you don't like it, use it as food for thought. Don't knock it till you try it.

[RandomJohn]

I'll take my personal experience over those of Galileo, Newton, Einstein, or even Watson and Crick any day. You can also add Steve and Erin Pavlina to that list

As it turns out, I've experienced the truth of what each and every person on this list has said, and I experienced it because I was skeptical enough to say "I need to try this and see how it works for me." In other words I don't leave it to anyone, including God or the "world's greatest scientists" to carve the commandments into stone tablets and hand off to me. When it comes to Truth, appeal to authority on any level just doesn't cut it for me.

YMMV.

So when I asked about other people's experiences with trying to induce an OBE through a lucid dream, it wasn't so that I could read it and feel all warm and fuzzy inside, it was so that I could try it out. It doesn't bother me that James Randi or Richard Dawkins or Radical considers it "improbable" or "not scientifically tested."

[Radical]

"what we want most earnestly, we believe most easily."

I too crave escape from the mundane reality of life, but that does not mean I will delude myself in the existence of some concocted fantasy dream world that can only be described as something out of a bad science fiction novel.

The only proof or evidence of OBE's you can seem to give me is that you remember the experience whilst you were asleep and unconscious, i.e. from your dreams. I too have strange dreams but that doesn't make them reality.

Another reason why OBE's are impossible is that consciousness loses all meaning outside your body, as you need your brain to interpret signals from your senses in order to be alert and aware of your surroundings. You claim that your consciousness travels outside of your body, then how can you remember anything, since memory is a property of the brain?

There are also people who claim to have spoken with god and then there are people who claim that everyone is involved in some kind of conspiracy against them. The former are treated as blessed and are welcomed with open arms amongst the majority of americans, while the latter are sectioned as schizophrenics.

This is not just an attack on astral projections and OBE's, but any illogical dogma that is accepted as true without any credible proof or reasoning.

We are human beings, no more than an intelligent hairless ape. We have come a long way since we first stepped out from the jungle, but are by no means at the pinnacle of human evolution. There are many things we don't understand, but that doesn't mean we have to follow some cult (i.e. religions) in order to get answers or believe in some unproven delusions in order to make ourselfs feel more omniscient.

"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

[RandomJohn]

The only proof you can seem to give me

I offer you no proof. It seems to me that you are practicing a "hungry ghost" brand of skepticism which will never be satisfied, and which is based on the fear of being wrong. (I work in a field which requires this kind of reasoning, because the costs of being wrong are so high.)

If you come to this board looking for proof, you will walk away empty-handed. If you are coming looking for a watertight argument, you'll find nothing. (Though TechnoRob is giving it a really valiant effort in another thread.) What you will find are people sharing experiences, tips, and advice. It's up to the consumer of those experiences, tips, and advice to turn them into knowledge or discard them. If you find all of it illogical dogma, you are certainly welcome to that opinion and are free to ignore it. I'll ignore or challenge your illogical dogma and baseless assumptions ("...no more than an intelligent hairless ape..." although we don't understand the consciousness of apes) as well.

[Radical]

I put it to psychics that their profession is nothing more than a delusional sham (no offence) and I challenge you to prove me otherwise.

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Radical

I put it to psychics that their profession is nothing more than a delusional sham (no offence) and I challenge you to prove me otherwise.

Go for it, Radical!

[Radical]

Just standing up for what I believe in.

In his book The Power of Now, Eckhart Tolle claims "Humans are a dangerously insane and very sick species."

And after reading this psychic garbage (no offence just my opinion) so do I.

Although Eckhart Tolle no doubt believes in supernatural phenomena.

[Karma Police]

Radical,

I challenge you to prove to everyone here that your experiences in life are "real" and that you aren't simply processing an elaborate dream that you believe to be real.

As you formulate your proof, please keep in mind that I do not believe your experiences are real, and I won't attempt to recreate any of your experiences in order to verify them for myself.

[RandomJohn]

Actually, I have affected Radical's existence. I tried to engage him (her?), but just get trollbait in return. From the language I've seen here and in the Intention-Manifestation forum, it's seems to me that Radical doesn't really want to engage in skepticism, as TechnoGuyRob did with his thread (and I found interesting), or even the skepticism found in the Power v. Force thread, but rather making sweeping accusations of fraud. I'm personally done with it, and Radical is on my ignore list. I hate to do that, but I recommend others do it as well.

Unfortunately, this thread has been completely hijacked to address this nonsense, and so maybe we can lock the thread and I'll try again. Or something. We can debate the authenticity of psychics in another place. Here, I want to learn about people's experiences with OBEs and astral travel, especially if they involve lucid dreaming.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by RandomJohn

Actually, I have affected Radical's existence. I tried to engage him (her?), but just get trollbait in return. From the language I've seen here and in the Intention-Manifestation forum, it's seems to me that Radical doesn't really want to engage in skepticism, as TechnoGuyRob did with his thread (and I found interesting), or even the skepticism found in the Power v. Force thread, but rather making sweeping accusations of fraud. I'm personally done with it, and Radical is on my ignore list. I hate to do that, but I recommend others do it as well.

Unfortunately, this thread has been completely hijacked to address this nonsense, and so maybe we can lock the thread and I'll try again. Or something. We can debate the authenticity of psychics in another place. Here, I want to learn about people's experiences with OBEs and astral travel, especially if they involve lucid dreaming.

I'm sorry you feel that way, it is hard when people challenge your beliefs and I apologise if you or anyone else is offended by my posts. I am just making a stand for science. Feel free to pick holes in any of my arguments.

[AndyMartin]

OBEs could be delusional. It might be true that nothing exists beyond that which can reliably be measured mechanically. I honestly have no way of knowing for sure. I've had experiences I think might have been OBE, but I don't know if that's the case. It's really not important to me to name them OBE or something else. They are what they are. Being right about it won't make me a better person, won't help me make a positive contribution in the world.

The question is, whether we are subject to our beliefs or whether our beliefs are subject to our will. To be practical, what good does it do a person to believe one thing over another? To believe something just to be right has the benefit of ego gratification, and ego development can be very helpful in seeking wealth, power or fame. On the other hand, the path of spirit -- believing that there is more to your existence than what can be evidentially proven to the mass collective -- has been shown by the likes of Ghandi to work well for those who seek to bring truth and compassion into the world.

Do "ego" and "spirit" exist in the scientific reductionist sense of being quantifiable phenomena? I have no freakin' clue! Maybe? Does it really matter? Like I said, I don't really care if I'm right; that's not the point for me.

[Jim]

I'm a bit slow and just now realized that OBE means out of body experience.

Take a look at my new post that addresses a study done regarding OBEs.

[Adam Sargant]

Originally Posted by Radical

I will never be able to believe in OBE's unless I either experience them myself or some scientist somehow comes up with a credible scientific explanation for them. People claiming to have experienced OBE's will never be able to prove them as anything other than a delusion...

Radical, you seem to have set up a recursive set of mutually exclusive criteria... if delusional, why should believing them by virtue of experiencing prove anything?

Would you be able to accept that the OBE description is a useful model for some people who have a consistent experience that no-one has been able to offer a plausable alternative explanation for all aspects of the experience?

In love and light
Adam

[andrew]

I think of the few things I've read of Erin's stated something along the lines of "if my conscious is not there, but it happens to my body in "real life", I don't really experience it. But a dream I take part in and remember it happening and experienced it, is just as real as if it hapened, and more real to me than what happened to my body that I didn't experience." Rough summery, but you get the point.

I felt that really hit home to me and made a lot of sense. Just one of the things is what happens if you forget everything? It's like you're not alive or something.

I'm just saying some food for thought.

[escapee]

I would also recommend reading cardiac arrest near death experience as it's related to OBE . If we can indeed prove that authentic NDE experience is within the human mind or consciousness rather than outside of body , then there shouldnt be any supply or input of spirit and ghost to the world that haunt many us around the world .

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Adam Sargant

Radical, you seem to have set up a recursive set of mutually exclusive criteria... if delusional, why should believing them by virtue of experiencing prove anything?

Would you be able to accept that the OBE description is a useful model for some people who have a consistent experience that no-one has been able to offer a plausable alternative explanation for all aspects of the experience?

In love and light
Adam

If I somehow ever experienced an OBE, I would have to either radically alter my beliefs about what is possible, or consider the possibility of being delusional.

One way I've thought people having OBE's can prove they exist is to set up an experiment: Someone very sceptical and anti-supernatural (such as James Randi) writes something on a piece of paper that only he/she could possibly know about and puts it somewhere in a locked room. Then the person claiming to experience OBE's can be induced to sleep. Then they can prove whether they are delusional or not by travelling to the room, reading the piece of paper and then when they wake up will be able to recall and relay the exact transcript on the piece of paper. All of this done under controlled scientific conditions of course.

[Sean.M.Connelly]

Originally Posted by Radical

If I somehow ever experienced an OBE, I would have to either radically alter my beliefs about what is possible, or consider the possibility of being delusional.

Why not practice, then? It takes some time, but it's certianly possible to learn to experience an OBE. Anyone can learn... it took me 6 months, personally. You have to admit that there is a lot of people who claim it is real, so I'm not suggesting you blindly believe them... but it might spark enough curiosity to see for yourself.

There is nothing you could read on the internet or on these forums that would convince you. Which is good! No amount of written word should be able to shake someone's fundamental beliefs that much. Only personal experience has that power. That's healthy skepticism.

So - you have issued a challenge for psychics to "prove" it to you. I issue you a counter challenge - I challenge you to practice and see for yourself, because we both know that there is no amount of "proof" that can be presented to you via the internet.

Practice. What have you got to lose? If you're willing to waste your time arguing on these forums, then surely you have enough time to practice OBEs :-).

~Sean

[AndyMartin]

Originally Posted by Radical

If I somehow ever experienced an OBE, I would have to either radically alter my beliefs about what is possible, or consider the possibility of being delusional.

One way I've thought people having OBE's can prove they exist is to set up an experiment: Someone very sceptical and anti-supernatural (such as James Randi) writes something on a piece of paper that only he/she could possibly know about and puts it somewhere in a locked room. Then the person claiming to experience OBE's can be induced to sleep. Then they can prove whether they are delusional or not by travelling to the room, reading the piece of paper and then when they wake up will be able to recall and relay the exact transcript on the piece of paper. All of this done under controlled scientific conditions of course.

Very true; the most we can hope for anyone is that they're willing to examine both possibilities equally.

Actually experiments of exactly the sort you talk about have been performed, though I can't point you to any papers on the results. One of the problems, of this of course, is the induction of the state under controlled scientific conditions, which are not necessarily conditions of comfort, relaxation and safety that are required to achieve the state. If you're interested in exploring the topic, I'd recommend reading some of Robert Monroe's books, like Journeys Out Of Body. Interesting stuff.

Afterthought: Studies in quantum physics have shown that the intentions of those conducting an experiment sway the outcome. A qualified study would be conducted neutrally, not as a competition between opposed believers.

[Erin Pavlina]

I will say this about my astral experiences. I began learning and studying astral projection around age 12 or 13. But it wasn't until I was 15 that I finally had one. When it finally happened it was like nothing I expected. But once it did happen, I was able to do it more easily in the future. It's like finding the muscle that controls just your left eyebrow and practicing for months to be able to lift just the one eyebrow. Once you find the muscle it's easy.

So it took me 3 years, and that's once I started trying to experience an OBE.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

I will say this about my astral experiences. I began learning and studying astral projection around age 12 or 13. But it wasn't until I was 15 that I finally had one. When it finally happened it was like nothing I expected. But once it did happen, I was able to do it more easily in the future. It's like finding the muscle that controls just your left eyebrow and practicing for months to be able to lift just the one eyebrow. Once you find the muscle it's easy.

So it took me 3 years, and that's once I started trying to experience an OBE.

I have a challenge for you Erin. If you truly believe in the psychic world and can freely have OBE's as you claim, then why not put an end to all the skepticism?

Set up a scientific experiment similar to the one I descriped in my previous post, and prove once and for all that psychics aren't delusional. Wouldn't it make you feel great to have all the skeptiks, i.e Randi, Dawkins etc eating their words?

Better still televise the experiment, for all the world to witness.

[Erin Pavlina]

If proving astral projection exists was my purpose in life, I probably would go to great lengths to try to prove it. My purpose is to bring our planet back to a state of love, peace, harmony, and compassion. Whether astral projection exists or not will be probably be of little consequence to that goal.

[RandomJohn]

Who cares about Richard Dawkins and James Randi? If they want to get caught up about whether (OBEs|homeopathy|God) exists or not, let them spin their own wheels.

There are more important things to do, and I've come to the conclusion that trying to satisfy (a certain creed of) skeptics is useless and a waste of time.

Radical, if YOU want to find out whether OBEs exist or not, why don't you do your own hard work and try to experience it for yourself. Other people have more important things to work on, and we don't need silly stunts such as challenges, or $1 million prizes, or accusations of fraud.

I got an idea. Since you seem to be "in tune" with the great scientists and also with the skeptics (yes, I separate them out, though there is overlap), certainly you are familiar with how to design and run an experiment in a blinded and controlled fashion. I think you might have suggested one or two on these boards. Why don't you run one and report the results, positive or negative? That way we all have something concrete to discuss in a scientific fashion, rather than vague notions of fraud, or what the "great scientists" say. And the discussion, I assure you, would be much more productive for all of us.

EDIT: By the way, I happened to do this a couple of nights ago with an applied kinesiology technique and reported the results at http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/spirituality-consciousness-awareness/419-whos-read-power-vs-force.html#post3200

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

If proving astral projection exists was my purpose in life, I probably would go to great lengths to try to prove it. My purpose is to bring our planet back to a state of love, peace, harmony, and compassion. Whether astral projection exists or not will be probably be of little consequence to that goal.

Erin you are forgetting one thing, alot of the worlds population is made up of people just as skeptical as me. So if you manage to prove that OBE's are possible then that would force everyone to question what is possible and whether their current beliefs accurately describe the territory.

I believe everyone is just doing the best they can with what they have, so if you can provide a more accurate description of the territory to help people live better lives, then what's a more noble cause than that?

Credible proof for something like this would bring hope to millions of people who are lost, confused, and fed up with life. By proving the existence of OBE's you would be doing the world a great service.

All the skeptics would start putting their energy into something more wothwhile, and people would be united by the sheer miraculous nature of this discovery. (That we are more than just our physical bodies).