OBE's or Delusions?

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by Radical

Question Everything!

Take your own advice.

[Erin Pavlina]

What I really hear from you when I read your posts is that deep down inside you feel disconnected from others. You want so badly to believe there is something beyond just the physical, but you are afraid of deluding yourself because having false hope is worse than having no hope at all. I think you've decided to hedge your bets and are in the process of manifesting acceptance that there is no life beyond death, no soul, no paranormal because then at least you can relax and live out your life in peace, knowing you were not wrong, and not getting your hopes up too high.

But there is a part of you, deep down, that knows you have a soul. There's a part of you deep down that wishes -- to the God you don't believe in -- that you are not alone. It's like you're sitting there with your eyes closed, in the dark, afraid to open your eyes because what if you open your eyes and there is no light? Just darkness? Then you will know for sure that you are truly alone.

What I want to tell you is that there is light. And you will never experience it or see it unless you open your eyes.

If you are sitting in a room with your eyes closed and we all tell you there is a bright light all around you, you will still not see it through closed eyes. We can describe the light and how we feel in this light, but it will mean nothing for you.

I have great compassion for you. I have hope that one day you will lose your fear and join us in the light of hope and faith.

[Radical]

Well Arthur Eddington once said "Not only is the universe stranger than we imagine, it is stranger than we can imagine."

You speak with alot of wisdom and I am sure that to you OBE's and supernatural phenomena are very real.

I personally have never had any supernatural experiences. I have never seen a ghost or experienced any strange occurences beyond the realms of mere coincidence. That doesn't mean they don't exist, but when most of the worlds current knowledge of science contradicts supernatural phenomena and since I havent encountered anyone in real life with these experiences, what am I supposed to think?

You say I feel disconnected from others and perhaps I do, but isn't this just part of the human condition?

It is very hard for people like me without these experiences, to open themselves up to the possiblity that everything they think about the true nature of reality is wrong. So wouldn't proving objectively that these experiences are real, help people like me to be able to experience them subjectively?

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Radical

You say I feel disconnected from others and perhaps I do, but isn't this just part of the human condition?

Several years ago Steve told me he didn't understand the attribute of connection. How do you feel connected to people you don't know? He asked me on a scale of 1 to 10 how connected I felt to people on this planet and I answered a 10. He said, "How do you do that? You don't know them all?" But I told him I just close my eyes and I can feel the connection we all share. We have far more in common with each other than we have differences. I know that somewhere on this planet someone is crying in despair. I know that right now, somewhere on this planet, someone is feeling rage. I know that someone is thinking about suicide. And I know what all those feelings feel like even though I'm not experiencing them. And I have empathy and compassion for those strangers because deep inside, I know them. They are me.

I taught Steve how to feel connection and love from people he's never met and will never know. It was my gift to him. In return, he taught me courage to be who I am, and to trust that I can make a difference on this planet.

You don't need to have any supernatural experiences to feel connection and love. Just know that you are not alone, even when you are the only person in your room. We're all in this with you. We all walk this path together. No one gets left behind.

Steve explained it well in his recent entry: Soulful Relationships

[Sean.M.Connelly]

Originally Posted by Radical

Erin you are forgetting one thing, alot of the worlds population is made up of people just as skeptical as me.

Actually, very few people have an unhealthy amount of skepticism. Have you spoken to average people? Most people believe in God, believe in the soul, believe in life after death, believe in ghosts, etc...

At first I used to think like you. I thought that when I experienced OBEs, that people would think I was crazy. That I was the minority - that I was the strange one. When I finally got the balls to actually TALK to people and find out if my assumption was true, I was shocked to find people readily around me that have experienced things far stranger than I have.

Originally Posted by Radical

All the skeptics would start putting their energy into something more wothwhile, and people would be united by the sheer miraculous nature of this discovery. (That we are more than just our physical bodies).

No they wouldn't. If Erin provided "proof", then you (or some other skeptic) would invent another, more strict, critera. The reason this happens is because you do not have HEALTHY skepticism. You have obsessive skepticism. No matter how much proof you witness, you will still demand more. No matter how much proof is shown to you, you will ignore it.

How do I know this?

BECAUSE PEOPLE HAVE ALREADY PROVEN OBEs.

People have already gone through all these tests. All these experiments. All these things you demand of Erin - people have already done! And more! And the results are in - OBEs are real. But you don't know about any of that evidence. Why not? Because your mind is not searching for evidence, like you claim. Your mind is searching for a way to perpetuate it's obsessive skepticism.

Sorry if this post comes off as rude.

~Sean

[Radical]

It is true that the majority of Americans believe in god, but that doesn't mean the majority of educated thinkers do. In fact the majority of scientists do not believe in a supernatural god. Einstein himself did not believe in a supernatural god.

Also, I bet you didn't know that the founding fathers of America were in fact atheists. You claim my skeptism is "unhealthy", but I believe showing blind faith in something is alot unhealthier! Just look at the world around you, all the jihads going on in the name of religion, or blind faith. Now, you might claim that my blind faith in science is unjustified, however unlike other belief systems, science actually provides empirical evidence for its claims.

You also claim people have already undergone many of these tests. Then why have we not heard about the results? Surely an unbiased controlled experiment proving psychic phenomena (OBE's etc) to be real would have circulated in to the mainstream by now.

Stop bashing people who prefer to use their common sense instead of foolhardily accepting convictions without empirical evidence to back them up.

[Erin Pavlina]

I remember when I first went vegan and learned of the atrocities committed against animals. I told my mom and she said, "This can't be true. if it was, no one would eat animals anymore. If it was true, what you say, then it would be all over the news. People would know about it."

But it is true, and people do know about it, and the people who don't want to know about it blind themselves to its reality.

We don't have blind faith in what we claim, we have actual experience.

[Radical]

I have alot of admiration for people who proactively try and find out why certain things happen. Why does the sun come up? Why does the tide go in? why do we have seasons? (All these questions we now know) If it wasn't for people like scientists we could very well still be living in caves.

It would be nice if people such as yourself claiming to have experiences of supernatural phenomena, that the majority of the population havent had the privilage of having, could work with scientists to help further advance our understanding of the universe.

[Erin Pavlina]

They do. There are scientific experiments going on all the time related to this stuff.

I mean, it's very clear and obvious where you're coming from. It's like your'e sitting in the middle of the sandy desert and we come along saying, "we have fun playing in the ocean" and you say, "What ocean where? All I see is sand." To which we reply, "Well, you have to come see the ocean for yourself to understand it." And you say, "Bring the ocean to me."

I say... get up and go to the ocean and see if it exists. Go investigate and share your results. It's very clear to all of us that we can't convince you of anything and no one is going to try so you're wasting your breath. While you're sitting in the desert sand claiming this vast ocean of water can't possibly exist, we'll all be swimming in it.

You're welcome to join us any time you want. But we are not bringing the ocean to you.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

You're welcome to join us any time you want. But we are not bringing the ocean to you.

A photo will do.

[Erin Pavlina]

Originally Posted by Radical

A photo will do.

At least buy a bathing suit.

[Jill]

As an interested skeptic myself, I find this discussion fascinating.

I really like that desert / beach analogy, Erin!

[Athena]

this is true.

I feel like some on the board here, just like the whole world in general, seems to be very divided on rational/scientific and spiritual perspectives of the world.

One great thing that the Pavlinas bring in their writing is a bridge between the rational and the spiritual perspectives. For people like me, whose minds were previously grounded in rationality and science, their writing is a valuable channel to the spiritual world. Now that some channels have been opened, and I'm starting to explore the world of spirituality and try to understand that dimension, I still feel like I need to justify some things in the rational dimension.. not just in my mind, but in a world filled with people living in the rational dimension.


It would be a great service for all, if they could help those of us who are also trying to travel that bridge between rational and spiritual;

you don't have to conduct any scientific experiments or try to prove anything, but simply explain some things in a bit more detail.

that will help open up the spiritual channels, help us understand better, and bring more spiritual light to the world.

[sourceofmiracles]

@Radical

Dude, some people don't believe that we've been to the moon. Most people have had experiences that they can not explain and they alway manage to either ignore it as an anomoly of the brain, or completely forget about it.

Some skepticism is totally beyond me. There are 10 to the 24th power stars in the KNOWN (nevermind what we can't see) and we are the only life? Nearly every culture (regardless of race, religion, and geographical separation) has had OBE or describe something similar yet it is some kind of mass illusion or brain abnormality? Sorry but that is just too improbable for me.

cut to the chase and be skeptical about the reality of "reality" and the validity of perception. If everything is a really elaborate illusion, then the only thing left to do is enjoy the ride be it dreamtime, astral phenomenon or complete insanity.

[AndyMartin]

Too much talk of oceans -- I'm going swimming! See y'all later.

(P.S. Anybody coming?)

(P.P.S. I drew a message in the sand. Long distance good vibes to anybody who finds it!)

[Erin Pavlina]

Yes, back to the pool.... I'm a'comin!

[Sean.M.Connelly]

Originally Posted by Radical

You claim my skeptism is "unhealthy", but I believe showing blind faith in something is alot unhealthier!

Where are we telling you to have blind faith in what we say? We have consistently told you to FIND OUT FOR YOURSELF. We are not saying to blindly believe us. I agree that blind faith can be dangerous.

Originally Posted by Radical

You also claim people have already undergone many of these tests. Then why have we not heard about the results?

Because you haven't searched for them.

Originally Posted by Radical

Stop bashing people who prefer to use their common sense instead of foolhardily accepting convictions without empirical evidence to back them up.

Again: we are not asking you to "foolhardily accept convictions without empirical evidence". We are telling you this:

We have experienced a lot of strange stuff. A lot of us have personally done tests to prove these experiences to ourselves. We realize that our own personal proof has no value to you. We realize that anything we can type has no value to you. We realize that it's healthy for you to doubt what we say....

However - we are also saying that if you want proof, if you want to investigate this fairly, then the only thing that will satisfy your obsessive skepticism is to SEE IT FOR YOURSELF, which would require you to TRY SOME THINGS. Trying some things doesn't require you to blindly believe. Now, myself personally, I don't think you're searching for proof. I don't think you're searching for evidence. Which is why you won't try anything out for yourself. You are searching for ways to label us as delusional to perpetuate your obsessive skepticism. Which makes this conversation mostly a waste of time. But it is fun :-).

What we are suggesting is not unhealthy. We are not demanding that you believe us blindly. We are simply replying to your post - you came here, challenging us for proof, and telling us that we're delusional. We are not on a James Randi's message board. You came to us. Our reply is: we can't give you any proof, if you want to find out for yourself, then you'll have to invest some personal time into seeing it for yourself.

Again, I'm sorry if I come off as rude. If you still think I'm suggesting you believe or do something unhealthy, then please re-read what I've said. My suggestions are rooted in healthy skepticism. I'm also sorry if I've grouped others in with myself who don't want to be :-P. I tend to use "we" and "us" more than "I" and "my" :-P.

~Sean

[JiriNovotny]

I haven't read most of this discussion, just want to share a way how to prove OBEs. This comes from Robert Bruce's book "Astral Dynamics" (The best book about AP that I've read, although it's without the spiritual stuff and a bit scientific, just pure metaphysics and empirical), page 28.

The method is fairly simple:
Take a deck of cards, shuffle it, take a random card from it, do not look at it and tape it on a window, facing outward.

Now, when you project out of your body, fly through the window and look at it. That's it.

Some remarks:
1. Your phyiscal body should be at least 6 meters away from the card
2. DO NOT TRY TO GUESS THE CARD, otherwise it will manifest in the outer reality and you will see the card that you've guessed. Thoughts manifest quite quickly in the astral dimension.
3. Glance at the card only briefly and immediately return to your body while repeating it's name
4. To make this work you of course have to project as close to the physical reality as possible

Personally, I didn't have a chance to do this test, as I've projected from my body only once and I was a bit scared so I didn't try any cool stuff. Actually I thought that I was sleepwalking , regardless the fact that I've been studying this phenomena thoroughly and projected on purpose - it was just too real. It took me only a few months to experience that projection, but I was lucky - so be open minded about it, it's not that hard to experience it.

Now I know the proper technics and dynamics () of the projection, but don't have much time for it.

I can recommend the book Astral Dynamics to anyone who wants to project out of body, it's written very well. You will be able to relax deeply and work with your energy too. His NEW - New Energy Ways system is pretty effective.

[Erin Pavlina]

Actually Jiri, that brings up a memory for me.

This happened when I was 15-16. One night I woke in my bed in an astral state and sensed something was "wrong" in my house (a common occurence back then). I left my body and flew out my door (why walk when you can fly right?) and started heading downstairs. Our stairs went in an "L" shape, and I flew down the first set and when I turned the corner I saw my dad coming up the stairs!! Middle of the night! I didn't have time to swerve and flew right through him. Weird sensation that was! He looked shocked for a second. I snapped back into my body.

The next morning my dad tells me that he woke up in the middle of the night and thought he heard flapping sounds around the house. He described the sound of like a huge bird flying around the outside of the house. He said he got up to investigate and went downstairs. He also told me that he was walking back up the stairs and when he got to the bend in the stairs felt a cold chill go through him. I was totally freaked at that. We worked out the times and realized it was the same time.

I wasn't expecting my dad to be there at that moment so I wasn't manifesting his image. He was really there physically while I was there astrally.

[DKSprocket]

Originally Posted by Radical

I have alot of admiration for people who proactively try and find out why certain things happen. Why does the sun come up? Why does the tide go in? why do we have seasons? (All these questions we now know) If it wasn't for people like scientists we could very well still be living in caves.

I had pretty much the same view on psychic phenomena as you up until a few years ago. Then I started opening myself up to the possibility that these things were actually real. But still, I had a lingering doubt - if this was really real how come science hadn't proven it. If James Randi is offering a million dollars to anyone who can prove psychic abilities how come noone have claimed it. Of course I had never bothered looking for any evidence, but the Randi-argument seemed compelling.

Then about half year ago I started putting some pieces together and realized that the worldview offered by the "esoteric" spiritual/psychic schools actually make quite a lot of sense - and it made me realize that there's a lot of big holes in the current scientific worldview. I'm not saying science is wrong, just that the current basic scientific model of the world (which is now over 300 years old) has somme serious shortcommings.

I decided to look further into this and started looking for whatever evidence there was for (or against) psychic phenomena. And here's the shocker: there's a LOT of extremely hard scientific evidence that proves that there IS something going on beyond science's current model of reality. And the numbers are quite staggering.

Here's the most thorough book I've found so far that summarizes a lot of the key fields in the area: Amazon.com: The Conscious Universe: The scientific Truth of Psychic Phenomena: Books: Dean Radin

Here's a free article regarding some of the evidence on reincarnation coming from small children remembering their past lives: Carter Phipps: Death, Rebirth, <br>and Everything in Between

I also did a little research on James Randi and the history of people who have tried working together with him. It turns out he has absolutely no interest in exploring the possibility of psychic phenomena (although he claims otherwise) and that instead he acts as if it is his life's purpose to portrait anyone claiming to have psychic power as a fraud, no matter what means necesary. Anyone wanting to go for his million dollar prize has to sign documents waivering any rights to question the verdict of the experiment and giving Randi the exclusive power to decide whether or not the experiment was a success or not.

Originally Posted by Radical

It would be nice if people such as yourself claiming to have experiences of supernatural phenomena, that the majority of the population havent had the privilage of having, could work with scientists to help further advance our understanding of the universe.

I know that Carter Phipps (the author of the article on reincarnation) quotes a study that found that 1 in 7 americans have had an out-of-body experience of some sort. Yet there's hardly any research in the academic fields on this area - not even in the psychological departments (which you would expect to try to explain them using psychological terms).


Rasmus

[elainevdw]

Originally Posted by AndyMartin

Too much talk of oceans -- I'm going swimming! See y'all later.

(P.S. Anybody coming?)

Count me in... I was having a negative day yesterday, and the ocean always makes me feel better.

It's interesting seeing you in action, Erin. You've shared stories on your blog about approaching difficult situations with compassion instead of negativity (like the sorority dance group), but seeing it live, I can learn a lot. This level 10 connectedness with total strangers is powerful.

Radical, I meant to ask -- have you ever had a plain old lucid dream? In your initial post, you said that you "believe" in lucid dreams because they sound plausible. Maybe that would be a good first step towards making up your mind on out-of-body experiences. I've had a few lucid dreams (I learned it as a kid as a tool to prevent nightmares from getting out of hand) but have never had an out-of-body experience, and it always confused me that the two terms are sometimes used interchangeably.

I think Stephen LaBerge tried researching out-of-body experiences via lucid dreaming, but all of his OBEs, upon waking, turned out to be partially lucid dreams. You might be interested in the article if you haven't already read it. It's been a while since I read it, but I don't remember finding it very conclusive. Here's the intro:

"Out of body" experiences (OBEs) are personal experiences during which people feel as if they are perceiving the physical world from a location outside of their physical bodies. At least 5 and perhaps as many as 35 of every 100 people have had an OBE at least once in their lives (Blackmore, 1982). OBEs are highly arousing; they can be either deeply disturbing or profoundly moving. Understanding the nature of this widespread and potent experience would no doubt help us better understand the experience of being alive and human.

The simplest explanation is that OBEs are exactly what they seem: the human consciousness separating from the human body and traveling in a discorporate form in the physical world. Another idea is that they are hallucinations, but this requires an explanation of why so many people have the same delusion. Some of our experiments have led us to consider the OBE as a natural phenomenon arising out of normal brain processes. Thus, we believe that the OBE is a mental event that happens to healthy people. In support of this, psychologists Gabbard and Twemlow (1984) have concluded from surveys and psychological tests that the typical OBE experient is "a close approximation of the 'average healthy American.'" (p. 40)

[Hoejer]

Originally Posted by DKSprocket

Here's a free article regarding some of the evidence on reincarnation coming from small children remembering their past lives: Carter Phipps: Death, Rebirth, <br>and Everything in Between

Rasmus

If you take a look at the story about the 3 year old boy, where the parents are claiming him to have had past life, the facts are just not congruent.
A child just turned 3 years old, has only just started talking so one can understand them, but writing his own name, and even adding a 3 is over the top, for a 3 year old.

Maybe it's the parents telling a story, using their unknowing child as a mean for attention.






Some people hear voices, is that psychic abilities or just insanity?

[Jill]

Originally Posted by Hoejer

Some people hear voices, is that psychic abilities or just insanity?

Prolly depends on the person!

[ChrisC]

I've tried experimenting with lucid dreaming in an attempt to validate OBEs. So far to no effect. What I do when I find myself in a lucid dream is to observe some detail in my surroundings that I had never seen while awake. If I can commit it to memory, then upon waking I could go to that location and verify the same details - it could be a pattern in some bark or in some rocks - something that would not change.

Unfortunately, I have yet to get a positive result. It seems that whenever I focus too long on one point, I start to wake up before I can commit anything to memory.

That is one thing about lucid dreams, that I need to be constantly moving my eyes to stay in the dream state. It's as if the movement is needed to "repaint" the scenery - and maybe it has something to do with the association of rapid eye movements with dreaming.

So I cannot personally verify OBEs, but I cannot rule them out either.

[qutec]

When I was a young child I experienced an OBE while I was standing, awake and fully conscious. I remember seeing my body, and it looked very strange and surreal. Some time after this, I discussed this with my mother, who then told me that my father told her a story very similar before I was born. Later as an adult I experienced several other OBEs, and various lucid dreams. IMO, lucid dreams are not always a precursor to OBEs. My only problem with OBEs as I am to aware of the experience while it is happening and "panic" and quickly jump back into my body. Then my heart starts to race, and it simply reinforces the fact that I don't really know what I am doing when I am out of my body.

Does anyone know of any heredity information concerning OBE? As my father has passed away, I have no way of querying him for information.


Thx, Q

[Rocket Surgery]

Originally Posted by Radical

Credible proof for something like this would bring hope to millions of people who are lost, confused, and fed up with life. By proving the existence of OBE's you would be doing the world a great service.

Like Radical. Methinks that's why he's here.

But, Radical, there's a very good reason that we are unable to prove the existence of non-physical realms and existence: It's so that we maintain our focus here in the physical in order that we best learn the lessons we came here to learn.

Absolute knowledge of an afterlife -- especially one where all our fondest dreams and desires can become reality simply by thinking about them -- would be a complete detriment to the very purpose of physical incarnation, which is to slow down the vibrations of existence to more closely study the process; to study love, relationships, and the illusions of separation, to learn empathy and erase bad karma through leading difficult and challenging lives.

For the limited, waking ego personality to have scientific proof that there's a way easier, nicer, and better place to exist than this cold and seemingly uncaring Universe would be like telling your kids they don't have to go to school if they'd rather spend the day at Disneyland with a free pass! Human beings would be leaping from bridges and buildings left and right to get the hell out of here and back to where things are wonderful and blissful at all times.

Only problem is, once we arrived, we soon awaken to our higher selves, which would all realize what a mistake we'd made in abandoning our "education." Much like the emancipated minor who drops out of high school, scoffs at the idea of college, and then realizes when he's pushing 40 how much richer his life might be had he taken his education seriously.

The physical universe was set up this way for very good reason. We all need to focus on our current realities. Afterlife or oblivion awaits us either way. I choose to believe in reincarnation and karma and subjective reality because not only does it give purpose to my personal existence, but gives purpose to the existence of everything. Atheism is really just another illusion taken on by a personality who needs a device to keep them from misdirecting their focus on metaphysical realities. Why else would Radical be hanging around these forums. He's like a recovering alcoholic who still hangs out in bars but orders soft drinks and brags about how he's still on the wagon. But in reality, he's really there to smell the whiskey.

Radical, don't worry about all this stuff. Just go live your life and face challenges and overcome obstacles. It's okay to not believe in anything. All I would encourage you to do is simply to always allow for the possibility that you may be wrong, and that although not scientifically provable, it's at least possible that your consciousness will continue to exist beyond physical death. This will help you make the transition to non-physical realms much easier. You can still tell everyone your a loyal atheist if you like. What matters is that deep down, you maintain that it's possible.

Finally, if you want some scientific proof of something, consider this: It is IMPOSSIBLE for something to come from NOTHING. The Big Bang theory claims this; that before the Big Bang that created the Universe, there was NOTHING. As a scientist, you know this is impossible. You cannot get something from a complete absence of anything. That means that SOMETHING had to exist somewhere prior to the Big Bang. What that something was is debatable. And if it wasn't something physical, then it was a SOMETHING that was NON-physical. And what might that be but some huge, non-physical cosmic consciousness, perhaps? The Big G, perhaps?

What about black holes? Where does all that matter go that get's sucked into them? Nowhere? Something cannot become NOTHING anymore than the other way around. The only possible explanation is that the physical matter gobbled up by black holes is either transformed into a non-physical form (perhaps its vibrations are sped up to create new personalities and entities) or it's fed into other universes on other dimensional planes to create new physical matter.

All that will be as it is. What's important is for us to focus on the lives we currently live and to live out our full potential. ~ RS

[imhnyc]

I'm looking for a possible definition of what I experienced yesterday. If anyone could give me some info I would appreciate it.

I was in my children's room waiting for them to take a nap when I dozed off as well. Shortly thereafter, I became semi-awake and realized that it was probably time for me to go pick up my daughter from school. I became then fully awake and tried to get up off of the spare bed I was stretched out on. But I couldn't get my body to move. With some effort I "stood" up but it was then that I realized I was not in my body. I saw the room around me and my body but only partially - hard to explain - as if I had a blindfold that was falling away and shifting about so my vision would be clear and then a blackness which appeared in one corner of my vision and would grow to cover most of the view. I was off balance but not dizzy. I also felt sluggish when I tried to move my body. I tried several times to get into my body and get off the bed, but I wasn't happening. I (spiritually) made it out of the room and part way down the stairs before I realized it hadn't worked again so I returned to the room and laid back down into my body.

This has happened to me once before many years ago but at that time I became paniced and had a hard time "realigning" my body and spirit. I learned from that experience that I had to relax in order to properly "reenter" my body. This time, I did not panic, but I was extremely frustrated because I was going to be late. So I stopped worrying and calmed down and it clicked back.

The first time this happened to me (almost 10 years ago) I spritually travelled a great distance to be home (which at the time I was so very homesick) and upon returning to my body had the above mentioned trouble. At neither time did I see a full view of my body from outside.

I'm open and would like to hear anyone's opinion regarding this experience. Is it out of body or dream paralysis or a something else entirely?

Thank you.

[The Universal Call]

Originally Posted by Radical

I can bring myself to believing in lucid dreams, as that sounds fairly plausible, but the idea of your spirit (which I don't believe in anyway since I'm an atheist) actually leaving your body yet still attached by a thin thread, travelling to other dimensions and fighting with evil demons, sounds utterly ridiculous to me.

For someone that claims that they haven't experienced an OBE you oddly take an example that only a minority of OBE'ers have claimed. I'm not an authority on the subjects of OBEs or APs (I will leave that to Erin Pavlina or Sean) but I'm amused that no one has yet to comment on this. This I have heard:

When having an OBE no one did ever enter another dimension to fight an evil demon. You leave your body and project in your physical location, you can see your body and can move about in a somewhat, almost similar resemblance, to the world we know of. You are attached to your body by a (silver-)thread, yes. Further, from what I have heard you can lower your vibration and see lower, negative, entities - but you can also do the opposite, and visit a higher plane (i.e. positive entities).

I have heard of people having astral projections (AP) that has done some crazy stuff (maybe not as exaggerated as fighting evil demons, but close ), but by taking the meaning of an Astral Projection: your thoughts create your surroundings and circumstances (like a live Lucid Dream?), such crazy things could happen. Maybe you've heard a story about an AP? Even I am a bit sceptical of this sort of extreme but I acknowledge that it could be possible in an AP, however, be critical yourself (like we haven't noticed you are yet). I'd love it if I was corrected in my statement, but quite frankly I haven't heard anyone have an OBE to go fight an evil demon. To me it seems like you've got it wrong.

I can actually relate to that; I thought that taking my driver's license would be SO HARD and take up SO MUCH TIME, I was really worried about taking it, taking a driver's license (i.e. lessons and theory) + school?! In the end this worry actually got one of my major concerns, I gave it a big role before I had even tried it. Asked my dad how long it would take and what work would be put into it: I was shocked! It was far from how horrible I had imagined it. Now I'm not too worried at all about taking it, and this entire misunderstanding was brought into life because I had overplayed some parts of the story I had been told and neglected other.
Moving on...

Originally Posted by Radical

The only proof or evidence of OBE's you can seem to give me is that you remember the experience whilst you were asleep and unconscious, i.e. from your dreams. I too have strange dreams but that doesn't make them reality.

Once again, I don't think I have ever heard anyone confuse a dream to their OBE-experience. Having an OBE for themselves put no doubt in their mind the difference, and I think you would too.

Originally Posted by Radical

Another reason why OBE's are impossible is that consciousness loses all meaning outside your body, as you need your brain to interpret signals from your senses in order to be alert and aware of your surroundings. You claim that your consciousness travels outside of your body, then how can you remember anything, since memory is a property of the brain?

Impossible??
Please, it was your "precious scientists" who put a label on consciousness without having any proof of it, over time this got accepted as truth (compare: religion) even though it is by definition illogical and a mighty good assumption. If you are even remotely interested in what Steve Pavlina teach (reason why you came to this forum?) then I need not explain to you how we CAN NOT PROVE that this or that item has consciousness or not. Claiming that OBEs are impossible because of a "consciousness-issue" seems rather foolish to me, and as I said: 'It is not scientific.' As far as we are concerned (you included) consciousness might be possible out of one's body, which automagically: impossible >> possible.

Originally Posted by Radical

There are many things we don't understand, but that doesn't mean we have to follow some cult (i.e. religions) in order to get answers or believe in some unproven delusions in order to make ourselfs feel more omniscient.

As far as some religions go, I might in a sense agree, but I'd rather not voice myself on that since I haven't tested said religions, but can only assume. Now, this statement... I think the people on this forum (most of them) is intelligent enough to see if something works for them or not, don't you agree? This statement sort of implies to me that those who are experiencing an OBE are believing in an "unproven delusion", and further it doesn't seem to give space that their personal experience counts for anything. I'm quite confident that if Erin says that she has had an OBE she have experienced this by herself. And if she wouldn't have had I doubt she would be following a cult just because it is so damn fun to believe in an unproven delusion, which also maintains a "theory" about some sort of "OBE's" yet no one has experienced them before. Religions, or cults (or what have you) usually don't last long if they don't hold any value to a person, and to me it seems quite obvious that we who believe in OBEs might just not be deluded, but has experienced them and can verify their experience and gives us a sort of value. If this would not be the case (which you imply), then we would probably abandon it.

Originally Posted by Karma Police

I challenge you to prove to everyone here that your experiences in life are "real" and that you aren't simply processing an elaborate dream that you believe to be real.

As you formulate your proof, please keep in mind that I do not believe your experiences are real, and I won't attempt to recreate any of your experiences in order to verify them for myself.

Hahahaha! Right on! I love this sort of humour.

Originally Posted by Rocket Surgery

Finally, if you want some scientific proof of something, consider this: It is IMPOSSIBLE for something to come from NOTHING. The Big Bang theory claims this; that before the Big Bang that created the Universe, there was NOTHING. As a scientist, you know this is impossible. You cannot get something from a complete absence of anything. That means that SOMETHING had to exist somewhere prior to the Big Bang. What that something was is debatable. And if it wasn't something physical, then it was a SOMETHING that was NON-physical. And what might that be but some huge, non-physical cosmic consciousness, perhaps? The Big G, perhaps?

Gosh, I repent not replying in the thread "The origin of the universe", we had an interesting discussion indeed and I am surely interested in continuing it. As for your statement: Exactly! As you may already know, but will surely be explained later in above mentioned thread; only by observing that the universe is now, and that can be slightly concluded by your statement: 'WAS, no matter if a Big Bang happened', referring this existence (that the universe, simply: IS) to a consciousness seems like a fair theory to me.

[If any of my discussion seems jumpy or out of context, excuse me, I always have a hard time expressing myself when I'm tired]

[onebeliever]

Hi i don't know if obe's real or if astral projection is real or even lucid dreaming. But i know what i have been experiencing since i was around 10 years old is real.

One experience i've had is that i had loud ringing in my ears then once it stopped i looked around me and everything that was around me looked the same as i did before i fell asleep. Only thing that was different is that somethings like my wife for instance looked a little different but one time i looked at her and she was faced the opposite direction i was facing then i touched the back of her head then she turned her head, then when i came back out my dream state her face was facing me. Another time my wife my son and i were really tired so we layed down and i fell asleep. I got the loud buzzing in my ears again. Then i noticed i was saying who am I? Over and over again. Then i could hear my wife's voice saying a different name then what my name really is (well the first name was different but the last name was the same.) After that some how i was floating above my neighbours ceiling looking down on them. A minute later i was awake again. After anyone time any of this happens when i come back i feel so afraid that i can't go back to sleep right away i have to fight my sleep till i can't anymore.

[Guard]

Originally Posted by onebeliever

Hi i don't know if obe's real or if astral projection is real or even lucid dreaming. But i know what i have been experiencing since i was around 10 years old is real.

One experience i've had is that i had loud ringing in my ears then once it stopped i looked around me and everything that was around me looked the same as i did before i fell asleep. Only thing that was different is that somethings like my wife for instance looked a little different but one time i looked at her and she was faced the opposite direction i was facing then i touched the back of her head then she turned her head, then when i came back out my dream state her face was facing me. Another time my wife my son and i were really tired so we layed down and i fell asleep. I got the loud buzzing in my ears again. Then i noticed i was saying who am I? Over and over again. Then i could hear my wife's voice saying a different name then what my name really is (well the first name was different but the last name was the same.) After that some how i was floating above my neighbours ceiling looking down on them. A minute later i was awake again. After anyone time any of this happens when i come back i feel so afraid that i can't go back to sleep right away i have to fight my sleep till i can't anymore.

I will say this to you. I have not knowingly astral projected or had and OBE. Many say that we are astral every night while we are sleeping and are completely unaware of it. As far as the noise. I have heard a noise a few times just before I fall asleep but I am still aware that sounds like a whirling waterfall or something...then I hear it and I freak out and wake up. I have been told that this is the sound current we hear before having an OBE.