A question regarding astral projection

[Troubled Kid]

I'm a tad skeptical about this whole astral projection thing. I want to believe that it's true, however there are a lot of mental barriers which prevent me from doing so (thankfully none of them have anything to do with Mr. James "Amazing" Randi).

One of the most disturbing questions is this: how does a blind man, a deaf man or a maimed man astral project?

All the accounts of astral projection I've read (including Erin Pavlina's) are from people like most of us - able, healthy and possessing all five senses.

Now what if one such person suddenly becomes blind due to some unforseen accident? Will he/she still be able to astral project? Will the astral body be capable of...."sight" as such?

Assuming that there is an afterlife (moving on to some higher astral plane after death), what if we're killed in an accident where we lose a limb or two? How does this affect the astral body?

Something which disturbs me even more - Alzheimer's and other brain disorders.

My grandmother unfortunately had sodium imbalance a year back. As expected, she was spouting nonsense from her mouth and didn't even know it. A week in hospital fixed that and now she's back to normal.

And that's my whole problem regarding accepting this thing called consciousness. What is it? It seems to be affected to such a great degree just by a slight imbalance of brain chemicals. Just don't get it.

It would be awesome if somebody could answer these questions. It'll most certainly help clear a lot of doubts (or perhaps misconceptions) regarding psychic phenomena.

[Albalida]

There's no more physically incapacitating state than near-death. Erm, except maybe actually being dead. But, near-death experiences are probably the most famous kind of "astral projection", and those are doable if accounts can be believed.

The first account I've read of an astral projector, mentioned that her most rewarding experience was teaching astral projection to a quadriplegic. Phantom limbs can be interpreted either as the astral body staying whole after the physical part is cut away, or a neurological glitch.

Personally, I find it so strange how spiritualists go on about being "more than my body." Why must the spirit be more than? Why must they separate at all?
I do believe in reincarnation, because energy cannot be destroyed but only transferred... but I don't believe the memories are necessarily outside of our neurons. The same water in my cytosol, probably fell on the dinosaurs once as rain. Every carbon molecule was once in the heart of a star-- I am an incarnation of a star. Energy, information, is just as real as matter and I believe they are intertwined.

In regards to astral projection, I have had out-of-body experiences, until my concentration began to leave me so that I couldn't meditate properly. I was diagnosed with depression and prescribed sertraline, which helps loads in this personal investigation of mine. Or should I say, personal investigation of mind.
I prefer the term "out of body experience" to astral projection, because there is definitely such thing as an experience, whereas I feel that astral projection makes all sorts of presumptions and conclusion-leaps about that experience. I am merely investigating.

[Erin Pavlina]

Your body contains your soul. If your body is missing limbs, the soul still resides in the rest of the body. When you project you don't have a body so no missing limbs are, well, missed. You can form your astral body into the shape of a human body but that is unnecessary. If you are blind from birth, you should still be able to see once astral, however, even sighted people can have a hard time seeing while astral, since no one is using eyeballs but rather other senses. It can be fuzzy and garbled even for someone with 20/20 vision in the body. Working that out takes time and practice.

People with Alzheimer's have a deficiency in their physical brain, not their astral brain. So their soul and consciousness is intact. Think of it like turning on the television and hitting the mute button. The tv is still on, you're just not hearing it broadcast. doesn't mean there's something wrong with the tv itself, you're just blocking the sound from your ears.

[Troubled Kid]

@Albalida and Erin Pavlina - Thanks for the great answers! I suppose this means that you are able to take on any form (including the human form) when you astral project, like Erin said.

However, Erin, I still don't get what you said about Alzheimer's or perhaps I hadn't asked my question properly.

Let's say Bob is a person who knows how to astral project. He manages to reach a high level of proficiency in this area and manages to remember all of his wonderful experiences which he shares with his family and friends. He keeps doing so until one day he is unfortunately diagonsed with Alzheimer's. He keeps losing his memories one after the other until he turns into a grown-up infant. His astral "brain" (don't exactly get what you mean by this) remains intact however.

What happens the next time he astral projects? I find it hard to swallow that he suddenly remembers who he is and then forgets, once he returns back into his astral body. Or perhaps something far more interesting happens? Either way I'm curious.

Originally Posted by Albadida

I do believe in reincarnation, because energy cannot be destroyed but only transferred... but I don't believe the memories are necessarily outside of our neurons.

That sounds ridiculous doesn't it? If our memories were stored outside our neurons then why would sharp bumps on our heads cause amnesia? I wonder who came up with that.

[Erin Pavlina]

He doesn't forget his experiences, he simply becomes unable to express them.

It's like making a video of yourself and only being able to broadcast it on the radio. How frustrating would that be?

[codenamesmiley]

Troubled Kid,

I have no experience in astral, that I could even explain or understand. I just wanted to comment on the fact that you have posted the most interesting list of questions I have to date, witnessed in these forums.

Thank you for starting this thread.

Blessings,
Rebecca

[Troubled Kid]

@Erin -

Very! I sure WOULD make sure that I spent most of my time astral projecting then

But once again, what about important experiences which need NOT be expressed? Like the knowledge that you're going to be burnt to toast if you touch fire? Or the knowledge that swallowing pencil batteries is injurious to health? Kids do these things all the time, not too sure about Alzheimer's patients. Do we have any proof that Alzheimer's patients are aware of these things?

I'll try using your radio analogy here as well:

I want to broadcast an educational video regarding phenomena such as optical illusions which require significantly detailed visual explanations. Obviously I won't properly be able to get my message across if I only communicate through radio broadcasts. But I would obviously know what optical illusions are and would be in a position to recognise one when I see it. So while my audience isn't able to distinguish between optical illusions and reality, I am perfectly able to (despite the fact that I can't communicate my knowledge through radio).

So once again, back to kids and Alzheimer's patients. Kids need to be TAUGHT that touching fire, swallowing pencil batteries and standing in the way of a motorcycle are all fatal activities. Alzheimer's patients already know this but are unable to make us know that they know. But they know. They WON'T do any of these things.

So is that true? Is that really what they do? Or is it something like the memories are there somewhere, only inaccessible? So the patient feels like the person she's talking to is a close person though she can't quite remember who he is (he may well be her father). The patient feels that she shouldn't touch fire. Why? She doesn't know (she just feels it).

I don't think any of us here really know so anybody with previous experience with such patients are most welcome to substantiate on this.

My whole point however is simply this (since all my other queries have been cleared): if our so-called 'consciousness' is swayed so easily by a simple imbalance of brain chemicals, how is one expected to believe that it even...you know, exists (independent of the brain or any other organ)? A little less sodium and you're barking nonsense. A little too much potassium and you're barking even more nonsense. It's almost as if the existence of these inanimate things (or lack thereof) heavily influence this thing we called 'consciousness'. And since your astral body is primarily your consciousness (please correct me if I'm wrong here), how does this condition carry over? Erin said that your astral "brain" is unaffected by the going-ons in your physical brain but....

@Rebecca -

Thank you so much for that! I feel all warm, happy and...bubbly!

[MiBeloved]

How does a blind man, a deaf man or a maimed man astral project?

Such persons astral project using the same subtle body, the body used in actual dreams. First of all we have to realize that the gross body is different from the subtle one and that the gross one is created in the body of the mother on the basis of the subtle one, which Nature’s creative process uses as a blueprint for the gross body.
A blind material body does not imply a blind subtle one. And the same goes for a deaf or maimed one. In fact persons who loose limbs usually speak to their doctors of phantom limbs where they experience pain and movement in an imaginary lost limb. Actually the lost limb is actually there as a psychic limb and the pain is subtle pain, which is felt by the subtle body. When a physical limb is lost, the subtle limb remains intact even though it may be damaged, and thus one will feel that limb from time to time. This is corroborated where sometimes in a dream one moves a hand or foot and then finds that the physical member did not move. It means that the subtle limb moved independently of the physical counterpart.

Now what if one such person suddenly becomes blind due to some unforseen accident? Will he/she still be able to astral project? Will the astral body be capable of...."sight" as such?


Loss of physical sight is not loss of subtle sight, usually the subtle sight will continue. In some cases the subtle sight will be lost for a time. But even then it is usually for a short time.

Assuming that there is an afterlife (moving on to some higher astral plane after death), what if we're killed in an accident where we lose a limb or two? How does this affect the astral body?

The astral body is sometimes affected but for short periods of time. It heals itself quickly. Just as the physical body has a healing system of its own which is independent of our will power and in fact is even independent on our objectivity, so the astral body has its own healing system which is much faster than the one we experience in the physical body.
Sometimes in astral experiences one is attacked by someone who stabs the subtle body with a knife, but even though h a wound appears, it instantly heals. Would there be pain? Yes and No. There is pain if the person had a legitimate gripe, otherwise even though a wound might appear; it disappears faster than it was created without any feeling of pain.

Alzheimer's and other brain disorders.


If someone departs from the body after a short period of say about 6 months for the most with Alzheimer’s, then that person’s subtle body will not retain the psychological effects of that disease, but if it is for a longer period, then that person would have that sort of forgetfulness and spaceoutness in the subtle body and would, more than likely, take a new body with a spaceout demeanor in their youthful years.
If a person was on morphine or any other addictive medication for a long period, then the subtle body would retain an addiction to those drugs and in the next body in childhood , the person even though forgetting the last body and its history, will manifest a desire to have these drugs again.
Stated basically the subtle body retains the psychological effects of our condition. Whatever habits we have which are psychological, are retained in and carried in the subtle body, which is itself a combination of our mental and emotional demeanors.

One of my books would assist to (Michael Beloved) clear this up, and some others also discuss this. You may check them:

Amazon.com: Meditation Pictorial: Michael Beloved: Books

Amazon.com: michael beloved: Books

[Erin Pavlina]

I'm not sure I understand your latest question. no one is omniscient when they go astral.

Kids must learn how to interact safely with our environment, that's true. A kid who goes astral would still be a kid.

[codenamesmiley]

I used to astral all the time as a kid and I survived it. I just haven't had that ability since adulthood.

I wonder if that is what it means when the angel oracle tells me all the time to get back in tune with my inner child?

I do know that children are not aware that they cannot do certain things until we teach them otherwise.

for example, my brother used to droph is matchbox cars behind the upright player piano when he was like 3...and he would literally move that piano out from the wall to walk back and get his cars. It wasn't until my parents made a big deal out of it and made it clear that was amazing for a 3 yr old, that he was no longer able to move the piano. (This was huge and old and not on wheels..and on carpet. An adult man would struggle to move it normally).

I cannot prove it, but I think that children are born with an instilled ability to do all things spiritual that we strive to perfect as adults....after we have been programmed thru growing up, that it isn't normal or possible. (I hope that made sense.)

In my experiences as a child, I never could fly, but rather would froggy paddle thru the air as if I were swimming. I only got about 4 ft off the ground..but could flip thru the air like it was zero gravity, once I was off the ground.

Blessings,
Rebecca

[Troubled Kid]

@MiBeloved - Thanks! That clears a lot of things up!

Still I'm curious - is anybody born 'astrally blind' or 'astrally maimed'? As in, I'm born with no physical disabilities but my astral body is missing a limb. There are people born with such physical disabilities all the time - how reasonable is it to assume that people are also born with astral disabilities?

And what if an astral tiger bites your leg off in the astral world? Would such severe wounds be healed as fast as you as you said?

@Erin - I was referring to this thing we call 'consciousness' or 'soul'. With reference to Alzheimer's you said that the people don't lose their memories, they become unable to express them. But if they really did have their memories, they wouldn't do what kids do - touch fire, swallow batteries, etc. They would KNOW that such things are fatal. Kids don't and have to be taught. So DO they really still have their memories? If so, how can one explain the above?

A sodium deficient patient would bark nonsense. So in all these cases the 'consciousness' (which is supposed to be independent of our physical body and hence immortal) seems to be heavily affected by chemical changes in our brain (such as a lack of sodium). In such a scenario, it's a tad hard to believe that the 'consciousness' lives on after death (since it seems to be so heavily affected by physical, inanimate things).

@codenamesmiley - Wow, I think that's amazing! It just goes to show that you can if you believe you can.

Outside astral projection, the same thing happens with adults in all walks of life, as one can clearly see. Adults can't stand suckage even for a minute whereas children do it all the time. Take language for instance. Children will pick it up so easily. Doing what? Watching TV, talking with parents and friends and reading books. Yet when adults need to learn languages, its usually almost always about courses and vocabulary memorisation and boring, grammar drills. And when these things don't work, adults will blame themselves and say that they're not talented, they're too old and they can't do it. We seem to be experts at proving how we CAN'T do so many things.

OK, question of the day: can plants astral project? Plants are very much 'conscious' beings in that they appear to react to music and munch flies (Venus flytrap). And what does that mean for veggies? "We're game killing plants, but animals are a no-no" (no offence, I'm a lacto-ovo myself...or more accurately WAS, until my stomach started firing up).

[Anagogy]

Originally Posted by Troubled Kid

OK, question of the day: can plants astral project? Plants are very much 'conscious' beings in that they appear to react to music and munch flies (Venus flytrap). And what does that mean for veggies?

Plant consciousness is not structured like human consciousness. They don't feel the need to escape their reality the way many humans do. Also, the simpler plant life has more of a group spirit or consciousness (with the exception of larger trees), they aren't as localized to their physical apparatus as a human is.

A big part of the reason we perceive our own consciousness as local rather than omnipresent (as it really is) is the locus of our physical senses, which offers our consciousness the illusion that it is in one particular spot, as opposed to another. Plants don't have the same sensory apparatus to allow them this particular illusion of perception.

[Erin Pavlina]

When we are incarnated, we use our physical bodies. If something impairs the physical body, then actions in the physical world will be similarly impaired.

With the Alzheimer's patient, the brain becomes mush. The tangles and plagues smoosh together so a person cannot use their brain the way they did before. Things they used to know get muddled. When the person dies, they will be intact again as there is no brain interpreting the energy signals.

think of it this way. A radio station is broadcasting music. You have a radio so you can tune in and listen to waht's playing. But one day, your radio starts to break down, so everything that comes through the radio is static. Is the source of the transmission broken or is your ability to hear and receive it broken? When you "go to someone else's house" and they have a radio, you can hear just fine, but then when you go home to your radio, it's all static again. It also doens't mean there's something wrong with your ears (i.e. your memories) it just means you cannot listen to the music properly anymore.

Bottom line is... Alzheimer's is a physical condition, not an astral one. When the patient with Alz dies, they will be just fine.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Troubled Kid

if our so-called 'consciousness' is swayed so easily by a simple imbalance of brain chemicals, how is one expected to believe that it even...you know, exists (independent of the brain or any other organ)?

This reminds me of an entry in Julian Baggini's The Pig That Wants To Be Eaten:

Among all the talk about the mysteries of human consciousness-- of which there are many-- it can be easily forgotten that one fact is surely firmly established: thought is dependent on a healthy, functioning brain. The evidence that this is the case is overwhelming. Drugs, bumps on the head and degenerative diseases all affect our cognitive abilities. The mind cannot protect itself against attacks on the brain ... (but) ... this is very different from saying we are our brains.

Compare the situation with a musical score. It can exist only in something physical: sheet music, a computer file, perhaps even the brain of a musician. But it would be wrong to conclude that a score therefore is any of these objects. The score is, in essence, a kind of code which needs to be prescribed somewhere to continue to exist. But it is the code, not the somewhere, which makes it what it is. ... The notes and keys that make up the individual personality could be thoughts, memories and character traits that together define who we are. There is nowhere else for this score to be written but in the human brain. That does not, however, mean we are our brains.

Basically, there is the level where the mind is just a network of nerve cells sending each other ...meaningless messages-- like ants scurrying around inside an anthill. On another level, the anthill has a personality in its own right.

Douglas Hofstadter's Godel, Escher, Bach includes a sequence where Aunt Hillary, who is an anthill, has a meeting with Dr Anteater. When Dr Anteater arrives, the ants go into a panic... To Aunt Hillary, who operates on the emergent level, their panic merely represents "the knowledge that Dr Anteater has arrived."

The same action means one thing for the ants, but something quite different for Hillary.

The way I see it, just because these levels are different, or ... say... the latter level is "transcendent", does not mean that the mind is either utterly material or separately immaterial. It doesn't mean that the transcendent level is an illusion, or that the physical level is subordinate. It's hard to explain better than the examples I gave, on how I see two seemingly contradictory ideas as harmonized. I hope it helps you!

Can't speak for plants right now, though.

[Troubled Kid]

Thank you everybody for the helpful replies.

@Albadida - I get what you're trying to say but that quote is doing nothing but using an analogy. It still doesn't explain why such physical changes affects something metaphysical which should be independent of such changes.

I mean if the consciousness IS somehow dependent on the physical brain (which is what I think you're trying to say) then the idea of the consciousness living on after death doesn't make much sense, no? C depends on P and P crumbles. Therefore C will also crumble. C is adversely affected by changes in P which don't suit P. Where's the free will there? You can get a sodium imbalance anytime and your "consciousness" will start behaving hysterically (keeping astral mechanics aside for now).

[JoeO]

Originally Posted by codenamesmiley

I used to astral all the time as a kid and I survived it. I just haven't had that ability since adulthood.

I wonder if that is what it means when the angel oracle tells me all the time to get back in tune with my inner child?

I do know that children are not aware that they cannot do certain things until we teach them otherwise.

for example, my brother used to droph is matchbox cars behind the upright player piano when he was like 3...and he would literally move that piano out from the wall to walk back and get his cars. It wasn't until my parents made a big deal out of it and made it clear that was amazing for a 3 yr old, that he was no longer able to move the piano. (This was huge and old and not on wheels..and on carpet. An adult man would struggle to move it normally).

I cannot prove it, but I think that children are born with an instilled ability to do all things spiritual that we strive to perfect as adults....after we have been programmed thru growing up, that it isn't normal or possible. (I hope that made sense.)

In my experiences as a child, I never could fly, but rather would froggy paddle thru the air as if I were swimming. I only got about 4 ft off the ground..but could flip thru the air like it was zero gravity, once I was off the ground.

Blessings,
Rebecca

I believe I have flown, have memories of flying but everyone convinces me I was dreaming not until I have been having mental issues was I told that it might be astral projection to get away from the harm that was being done to me.

How do I figure out if flying is a memory or a dream??

There are about 5 memories and they are always the same when I dream about them...they feel the same, they smell the same and have the same people in them...

There are other dreams about flying that are not as real and I can clearly tell that they are just dreams..

How are you 100% certain its just not a dream?

[codenamesmiley]

Because I can control in real-time where I go and what I do. There are six senses in place, rather than usual five and in dreaming there is usually only one or two that I can recall from what I remember of dreams. In a dream, it is more like watching a movie thru character's eyes.

Unless, it was lucid dream that I was experiencing as a child. I could also control my dreams. Change them if one became unpleasant. Play alternate endings to them. I was totally in charge in dreams, as a child.

Erin would probably know what it was.

Blessings,
Rebecca

Blessings,
Rebecca

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Troubled Kid

I get what you're trying to say but that quote is doing nothing but using an analogy. It still doesn't explain why such physical changes affects something metaphysical which should be independent of such changes. I mean if the consciousness IS somehow dependent on the physical brain (which is what I think you're trying to say) then the idea of the consciousness living on after death doesn't make much sense, no?

Not really what I was trying to say, but I really can't think of any better way to explain So, I'll have to leave that for now. However...

C depends on P and P crumbles. Therefore C will also crumble. C is adversely affected by changes in P which don't suit P.

I see here... If we let C be "the reality/practice of astral projection" and let P be "theories about astral projection". Because we can't build a solid theory, the reality crumbles? That can't be right, because that's the same kind of logic that concluded: kangaroos use up more energy from hopping than they can ever get by eating, so they're all extinct; according to formal aerodynamic laws and calculations, bumblebees cannot generate enough lift to fly.

Either the theory is incorrect, or the reality has certain mechanics that the mostly-correct theory does not take into account.

[sups]

I thought I would ask my share when there already is a thread on astral P open .

I assume/know that we are made of several layers
the gross body and the astral,etheral etc body to name a few.
As I understand the Aura is the expanded astral body one sees/feels around the physical body.
1.So when one travels astrally does the physical body have no aura at all?

2.Would a psychic see the silver cord attached?

3.does then the higher self merge with the astral bosy during travel?

4.Erin and the ones having done Ap mention a few dangers/ attacks during AP, are the guides/angels unavailable to protect you then?

sorry if I sound silly, but i am just tooooooooooo curious to know.

[forynav]

About consciousness and chemical imbalances:

I'll try to use the same analogy as Will Buhlman.

We are multi-dimensional beings - in the same way as light is just one frequency of an EM wave.

So, you can block light by using something opaque, but the IR and UV rays would still get through.

Similarly, our physical "consciousness" would be damaged but our astral and other "consciousness" would stay intact.

[MiBeloved]

1. when one travels astrally does the physical body have no aura at all?

Physical body always has an aura when it is alive and it loses that aura when it is deceased. However when the astral body is separated from the physical body during astral projection, the physical body’s aura decreases and does not glow as much. This is because a portion remains with the physical body to carry on digestion, cell repair and even to some extent physical (brain) memory operations.

2. Would a psychic see the silver cord attached?

A psychic would see the so-called silver cord attached but only if the psychic is focused on the level of vibration of that cord. It is not always seen because the psychic perception of a person is not always on the same level as the vibration of that silver cord. In addition even though it is called a silver cord, it can be seen in other colors like cream or white, grey or even orange. It depends on the health of the person. Even though it is described as a cord and have become standardized as that, it is actually a stream of energy. At death of the physical form, that life force permanently leaves the physical body and remains with the subtle body only, at least until another gross body is developed for the person concerned.

[MiBeloved]

It does happen in the astral world, that one ends up in a scary dimension where violence of some type is applied to the astral body. In many such situations, the body heals immediately if the violence is accepted by it. Sometimes when someone or some animal attempts to inflict a violence it does not penetrate the astral form but on occasion it does.
In some astral dimensions however, in hellish ones, violence does last for a time and it does not necessarily disappear as suddenly as it is inflicted but that is due to some type of fly-back reaction which is due to someone because of a previous action which was inflicted on the psychological plane and which was not solved out in destiny up to that point.
You mentioned a tiger. Actually there are astral tigers. In fact even some of the extinct species of tiger like the saber tooth can be seen in some dimensions in the astral world. Even though they have no physical access to this planet, their astral forms still exist in adjacent dimensions and their predatory instinct t is still intact on that level.
The thing is however that when one is attacked by a tiger in this world, one is not able to run away or disappear physically because the tiger body has more running ability than the human one and a physical body cannot make itself disappear or appear into another dimension. But the astral body is able to disappear from an astral world. So if you are being chased by a tiger then you will find that your body vanishes suddenly from that world as soon as your fear increases to a certain extent. The tiger will not be able to follow you into that other dimension because there are thousands of such dimensions, and your subtle body will go into one in which the tiger cannot trace it out. This happens by psychic instinct.

There are people born with such physical disabilities all the time - how reasonable is it to assume that people are also born with astral disabilities?

Please permit me to write this in another way so as to clear up what the astral body is as compared to the physical one:

Since there are people born with physical disabilities all the time, should be assume that this has some basis in the astral body, which is not born but which continues through the birth and death of a person’s physical forms.

First of all the astral body is not being born and it is not dying as the physical ones do. The astral body is continuously being energized and de-energized life after life. It is the same body that is being used to create a series of gross or physical forms.
The astral body is easily understood if you can see it as the subtotal of your mental and emotional energies. These energies persist after the death of the physical body but they seek out another physical form because they have that instinct to function physically. I am thinking of this, for instance, but I have to put it into physical form for your usage. So the thinking part is like the astral part and the written form is like the physical part.
The astral body does carry in it the psychological good and bad energies which were not solved out in destiny. And therefore unless a person is 100% good, it is obviously that the subtle body will have within it defects. It is nice to posit that everyone is an angel but that is not true in real world. And even angels are sometimes found wanting. In so far as our psychological energies are corrupt, the subtle body will be corrupt.
Defects in the subtle body do manifest in the physical embryo, but added to that are genetic defects inherited from the parents because that is the way of nature. Therefore a person might have a defect which results from his or her psychological hang-ups or from parental genetics or from a combination of both factors. It is not easy to figure it out. Unless a person can see all the past lives or of all the persons involved in someone’s life, that person is at best, guessing about the matter.

[sups]

thank you Mibeloved for all the clarifications