Is Astral Projection Real?

[forynav]

I find it strange that I find myself asking this question. But lately, I have become a leetle skeptical.

Reading Erin's experiences is truly fascinating and I am halfway through Will Buhlman's book and I feel a great joy within my heart coupled with a sense of awe and wonder. However, all this is poisoned by a little smidgen of doubt.

I have had lucid dreams and I wonder whether APs are just lucid dreams?

And discussing AP with my skeptic friends does not help

Is there a way we can prove AP? Like someone can visit me astrally and pm me on the forum my real name or something like that?

I dunno wat I am saying lol

Is this experiment feasible?

Eagerly awaiting responses!

[Anagogy]

Read Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe.

He had quite a few validating experiences which contain the type of evidence you're looking for.

But there's only one way you will ever know for sure.

Learn to do it yourself, then you can conduct all the experiments in the world, and learn about the various inherent difficulties of performing such experiments.

[forynav]

Thank you

[Albalida]

One Dr. Charles Tart conducted an experiment with an astral projector, only named "Miss Z" and she was able to read a 5-digit number while out of body: 25132. I try to find an article that can point out the methologial problems to this experiment, apart from insufficient sample number and repeats, but my Google-fu fails me.

Even after having had OBE's myself, I wonder sometimes if it's just a different kind of dream. Wouldn't there have been so many more experiments like the one above, that proved it? On the other hand, why do I always start out in the room I was meditating in during an OBE, and why did so many elements of that experience go so far beyond what I'd expected from just reading other people's accounts? Back to the first hand, why do I see people and creatures in my bedroom that are not physically there or not known to be found on this planet? Simplest explanation is: dream. But, that explanation just isn't as congruent with the rest of the experience as I need it to be to buy into it, either.

[The Mad Coder]

Ya know, it could be that dreams are a different kind of OBEs.

[yeyeman9]

Speaking of that tho, you might want to start asking yourself one simple question: In the end, what are dreams EXACTLY?

[Erin Pavlina]

I wrote an article about how to tell the difference between AP and LD's.

Astral Projection and Dreaming

Does Lucid Dreaming Lead to Astral Projection?

Read both of those for some insight.

[dwixi]

Originally Posted by Anagogy

Read Journeys Out of the Body by Robert Monroe.

He had quite a few validating experiences which contain the type of evidence you're looking for.

But there's only one way you will ever know for sure.

Learn to do it yourself, then you can conduct all the experiments in the world, and learn about the various inherent difficulties of performing such experiments.

Surely even if you do it yourself you still cant be sure.

[Erin Pavlina]

Ever heard the old saying, "How do I know if I've had an orgasm?" If you have to ask, you haven't.

Same is true here. There is nothing at all like astral projection. No dream comes close. if you've gone astral, you will know it. If you haven't, you might have experiences that come close but you will always wonder. If you wonder, you haven't done it yet.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Ever heard the old saying, "How do I know if I've had an orgasm?" If you have to ask, you haven't.

Same is true here. There is nothing at all like astral projection. No dream comes close. if you've gone astral, you will know it. If you haven't, you might have experiences that come close but you will always wonder. If you wonder, you haven't done it yet.

But back in the 1800s, women who were close to orgasm actually went to see a doctor, to get diagnosed with hysteria. It was completely natural, but not necessarily obvious, since apparently nobody knew what it was.
We can ask, "How do you know what's real?" and get someone like Descartes who was so skeptical of everything that he probably walked into walls.

With due respect-- If you wonder, couldn't it be that you're just someone who wonders a lot about things?

[SarahJaynee]

One day I will test one particular astral projection that I had.
Brief history is I had a "challenging" childhood. A violent and abusive mother and I left home at age 12/13 to live in a children's home. I haven't seen my mother since then but she is alive and well (I have a grandma who I see occasionally) and lives in Spain.
Anyway I got really into astrology at around age 20. I asked my gran for my time of birth and she told me around 08:30. Now this never fitted (cancer rising) but it was all I had to go on. Later in life a sister of mine contacted me and I did her astro chart, when I asked her for the time of birth she also said "around 08:30". then I realised that maybe my grans memory of birth times wasn't quite accurate! lol
Anyway during this time I had been developing my psychic talent, meditation, lucid dreams and astral projection. I decided to use one or all of these talents to find my real time of birth.
That's when I had an astral projection. The room I was meditating crumbled away in my mind and I was standing in a wooden kitchen. A woman was at the counter with her back to me. I "knew" she was my mother although she resembled her in no other way apart from being a white woman. She turned to me and said my name, then "I know you have been wanting to know what time you were born. I cannot remember exactly but it is somewhere between 11:35 and 11:45am". I didn't get a chance to talk back, she turned back to the counter and I was "sucked" backwards out of the kitchen back into my meditation.
Despite all the violence, angst, abuse, shouting, stress and despair of my childhood all I felt for this soul who was my mother was profound love and connection...
Now one day I intend to check out this projection and find out my time of birth from a being on this earth in this dimension. I did check out my new astro chart using the info and Im far more Leo rising than Cancer.
I'm not sure that during an astral projection we visit this dimension, but I do believe we connect with souls who may have a different bodily form in a separate dimension.

[bluestar]

.........Oh yes.
Like Erin said, if you have to ask, that means you haven't done it yet. When you have, you won't have a shadow of a doubt. It'll be as real to you as your breakfast!

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by bluestar

It'll be as real to you as your breakfast!

I'm occasionally sure of breakfasts, but I doubt my spoons a lot.

[Pyper900]

I've gotta cry foul on Astral Projection...dreams and nothing more.

[Erin Pavlina]

That's the dumbest thing I've read from someone trying to debunk astral projection. Really. And I've read a lot. So many false claims and arguments in there.

Just because science can't quantify or explain something or even detect it doesn't mean it can't happen. that's a deficiency in science.

[Pyper900]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

That's the dumbest thing I've read from someone trying to debunk astral projection. Really. And I've read a lot. So many false claims and arguments in there.

Just because science can't quantify or explain something or even detect it doesn't mean it can't happen. that's a deficiency in science.

Nice...

The reason it can't be quantified, is not a failing of science, it is a feature of the phenomena. The experience of so-called astral projection is entirely internal. There CAN BE NO PROOF outside of that person's experience, which by logic means that testimony can only be anecdotal.

So...exactly what evidence can be presented that should make me or anyone else believe that anyone's experience in astral projection, your's included, is anything more than a vivid dream?

Personal accounts (which again, are anecdotal) are clearly not sufficient, so coming back with an "I've done it, so I know" response is equally unhelpful.

For some reason I expected a more measured response from you.

[Erin Pavlina]

I'm sorry, that did sound sort of harsh. I just hear the same thing so many times it's driving me crazy.

I would never tell someone to believe astral projection on my word alone. I encourage people to try it. What I don't like is people who claim something can't be possible when they haven't tried it for themselves.

I mean, can you prove you had a dream last night? Show me your dream. Have it again if you can. Project it up on a screen. I didn't see your dream so how do I know you really had one? Yet so many people have dreams that we all believe it when someone says, "I had a dream last night." but science can't prove you had a dream. Science can show something interesting going on with your brainwaves while you sleep but they can't prove what you are dreaming.

[JanT]

Hi forynav -
I wasn't too sure about AP either - then began having some strange things happen to me. Of course, I have no way to prove it - but it was proof enough for me.

The first was my youngest and I were at BK for her kiddie meal fix, and a woman with an infant on her hip, walked up to me. She called me by name, and excitedly thanked me for going over to her house lastnight to help her with her son. I hadn't a clue who she was. I reached over to touch her young one's face, and 'saw' me holding him lastnight - which was impossible. I had been sitting on the couch with my husband, listening to some wonderful music.

The woman continued, telling me that the frozen washcloth helped her sons teething problems, and she was much relieved.

I was floored.

Next time, a friend had was in an auto accident one state away from home. I was at work (was a typsetter then), and on my computer screen, 'saw' my friend in a mangled auto. I imagined I stayed with my friend until help arrived.

A few days later, that friend's spouse called me to tell me about the accident. My friend was banged up pretty bad, was in the hospital and would be about another week before they could come home. Then the spouse told me that my friend must have really been in bad shape; my friend kept insisting to the spouse that I had stayed with her by the mangled car until the paramedics came. The friend swore up and down that I was there - and I was seen.

Both of those were many years ago - I no longer get weirded out when someone I don't recognize stops me to thank me for helping. I figured my doppleganger (AP self) was out and about again.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Nice...The reason it can't be quantified, is not a failing of science, it is a feature of the phenomena. The experience of so-called astral projection is entirely internal. There CAN BE NO PROOF outside of that person's experience

But... 25132... I think we just need more experiments like that. At this stage, though, I'll have to agree that truth doesn't need defenders so much as witnesses.

So...exactly what evidence can be presented that should make me or anyone else believe that anyone's experience in astral projection, your's included, is anything more than a vivid dream?

Just coming from a critical layperson, this video suggests that OBE's are neither an objective reality or a dream, but a side effect of sleep paralysis combined with REM sleep. From what I've read of Dr. Charles Tart's research, however, his subject estimated the time of occurrence of an OBE and Dr. Tart found that it corresponded to a period that she was NOT in REM. The brain activity, which can be observed, was different from the brain activity usually seen dreams.

However, this neither refutes nor proves that it's "all in our head" one way or another, since there is measurable brain activity in a subject being pricked with a needle and that doesn't discount the existence of the needle.

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Personal accounts (which again, are anecdotal) are clearly not sufficient, so coming back with an "I've done it, so I know" response is equally unhelpful.

For some reason I expected a more measured response from you.

Her response wasn't that bad

LOA is made of personal accounts.. is that obviously not real??

Let me ask you Pyper900 if you have a theory that brings together everything in the world to make sense without insisting that anything and everything in the world is illogical or lies??

(because you know your science buddy's don't, for they would have to quantify millions of prayers, millions of ufo siting's, millions of remembered past lives and the list goes on and ON and OONNN..)

I know your answer it is = to a NO

I on the other hand claim said answer.. I don't have to read your url to know it's all about skepticism and enforcing a reality of skepticism..

This brings up a question I too have about AP.. can you consult/have conversations with guides/teachers in astral?

[forynav]

Wow, thanks for the responses guys! I've been away reading up more literature on this.

Sometimes I wonder if whatever experience I'll have will be influenced by what I have read.

Either way, I've come up with some tests and am really excited about my first projection!

OK. FAIL. I should be calm when the vibrations come.

Deep breaths.

Deeeeeeeeeeeep breaths.

[Pyper900]

Originally Posted by themaster

Her response wasn't that bad

LOA is made of personal accounts.. is that obviously not real??

Let me ask you Pyper900 if you have a theory that brings together everything in the world to make sense without insisting that anything and everything in the world is illogical or lies??

(because you know your science buddy's don't, for they would have to quantify millions of prayers, millions of ufo siting's, millions of remembered past lives and the list goes on and ON and OONNN..)

I know your answer it is = to a NO

I on the other hand claim said answer.. I don't have to read your url to know it's all about skepticism and enforcing a reality of skepticism..

This brings up a question I too have about AP.. can you consult/have conversations with guides/teachers in astral?

It would be easier to respond if you 1) made sense and 2) stayed on topic.

If you refuse to accept that in order for one to relay their experiences in astral projection, one can only use verbal testimony to do so; as astral projection is entirely subjective and internal, and as such that testimony is both equally as fallable as human memory and entirely anecdotal in nature, then this discussion is already moot, for you subscribe to fantasy and wish-thinking, and no amount of logic and/or reason will dissuade you of that belief.

Phenomenon such as ghost sightings, UFO's, mythical creatures and anything else you want to throw in there (including dreams) are both prevalent enough throughout our collective cultures and are each quantifiable in their own rights. In my learned opinion, astral projection is the only phenomena that defies ALL attempts to document and measure.

With all due respect to Erin, what she calls false claims, are actually not. Anyone who chooes to actually read the article can see that no false arguments were made. In fact, the arguments presented are based on -the ever uncommon- common sense.

The issue that could be taken is the drawn correlation between near death experience and astral projection, however, this is documented and cited from an accepted source.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

If you refuse to accept that in order for one to relay their experiences in astral projection, one can only use verbal testimony to do so;

What about Dr. Charles Tart's research?

as astral projection is entirely subjective and internal,

I think I mentioned some of Dr. Charles Tart's research...

and as such that testimony is both equally as fallable as human memory and entirely anecdotal

But observed anomalies must not just be dismissed. What about Dr. Charles Tart's research?

in nature, then this discussion is already moot, for you subscribe to fantasy and wish-thinking, and no amount of logic and/or reason will dissuade you of that belief.

May I suggest you seem to be trapped in your own paradigm? See here for a list of logical fallacies. See:

confirmation bias: This refers to a form of selective thinking that focuses on evidence that supports what believers already believe while ignoring evidence that refutes their beliefs.

Anyone who chooes to actually read the article can see that no false arguments were made. In fact, the arguments presented are based on -the ever uncommon- common sense.

Really? I see...

Most commonly, this phenomena (and I use that word lightly, since I’m hardly convinced it isn’t an imaginary figment)

Confirmation bias.

The very fact that most out-of-body experiences are so closely related to periods of neural stress, indicates less of a likelihood for actual ethereal projection beyond the confines of the body and lends a great deal of weight to the correct hypothesis…hallucination.

Begging the question.

Meditation, guided visualization and, in some extreme cases, narcotic assistance are used to achieve this so-called astral projection intentionally, but what is more likely happening, is an intense dream state brought on by almost overuse of the subconscious imagination.

Argumentum ad ignorantiam.

Coincidence, subliminal observation and deductive reasoning can easily account for the claims of knowledge of things that occurred during the persons “away time”, and in the face of passionate rebuttal, no such reasoning will be accepted by the astral projector.

Ad hominem.

[Pyper900]

Dr. Charles Tart is who exactly? Some obscure internet personality claiming to be a Phd., offering instruction and explanation for some cognitive processes and parapsychology, though achieving only a lightly reasoned argument for any of it.

Instead of trying to impress with your common latin vocabulary, how about you actually present a contradictory position to that presented in my article.

I would like you to find and present a single "observed anomaly" that is directly related to astral projection, and which can be quantified and repeated in any significant way by any reasonable person. Evidence of remote viewing is not comparable by the way.

If you really want to participte in the argument, then participate, don't sit on the sidelines and throw stones.

[Albalida]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Dr. Charles Tart is who exactly? Some obscure internet personality claiming to be a Phd., offering instruction and explanation for some cognitive processes and parapsychology, though achieving only a lightly reasoned argument for any of it.

Funny how you go straight to the question of credibility, when I don't see the credentials of the writer of the article you linked to, the sample space, variables, or mechanics. It's all just opinion, and, as I pointed out with what you call

common latin vocabulary, how about you actually present a contradictory position to that presented in my article.

You would have us believe your source is logical on your say-so? I pointed out where it does, in fact, make logical fallacies.


I can understand open-minded skepticism of "give me something to consider before I accept this as a fact", but you propose an answer already:

I've gotta cry foul on Astral Projection...dreams and nothing more.

That is making an assertion, not questioning, so the burden of proof is also on you.

Edited to add: He actually graduated from some place?

[themaster]

Originally Posted by Pyper900

Phenomenon such as ghost sightings, UFO's, mythical creatures and anything else you want to throw in there (including dreams) are both prevalent enough throughout our collective cultures and are each quantifiable in their own rights. In my learned opinion, astral projection is the only phenomena that defies ALL attempts to document and measure.

Your statement doesn't make any sense.. it really doesn't your basically saying UFO's, ghosts, mythical creatures (let's say bigfoot but there's dozens) have enough evidence but poor old Astral Projection is just poppycock?

I mean really this is just you making a assertion that 1 out of a dozens ideas is not true.. you might want to try being more inclusive.. you might want to try the idea of this and that.. not this or that

For just as you produce 1 piece of evidence that AP is a hoax.. we can all find dozens of pieces of evidence proving ghosts, ufo's, mythical creatures etc. a hoax.. and it goes on and on and ON..

I'm going to tell you straight I have never done Astral Projection.. but I don't doubt its existence or idea just as I don't doubt the existence of a mythical island called "Atlantis" there is a reason these ideas and energies exist in our consciousness..

Most of us have never used a teleport but we have the idea.. tried a phasor but we have the idea.. played on a holodeck but we have the idea.. and what about telepathy or telekinesis.. all these ideas are in our society and almost all of us know what they mean.. including the idea "Atlantis" my point these ideas have a energy/a idea.. they’re very existence in our vocabulary in fact in a way proves there idea for us..