Suicide and what happens after you die

[sgregory]

Let me clarify that I'm not suicidal in any way, I want to live as long as possible because there is just so much I want to do and grow from. But one day I thought, "What if one day something terrible were to happen to me like war, famine, debilitating disease ect. and there was no way to escape the suffering and I was going to die anyway. What were to happen to my soul if I chose to end my suffering myself?

Would my soul be in a lowered state because of this even though I truly wanted to live, but not suffer. When I reincarnate will I still have to learn my lessons, and it be harder the next time as Erin wrote in one of her Q&As on her site? Will I just have to go through intense suffering again in the next life if I choose to reincarnate?

[tboswell1216]

I don't think that you would have to re-learn all of the life lessons that you have already learned just because you kill yourself. I think that you would probabely pick up where you left off in the next life. You would already have a portion of your lessons completed, depending on where you were in your life and what lessons you had already learned, and you would just continue on with those lessons in the next life. I think that is what we do whether we kill ourselves or not. We decide what lessons we want to learn, and at our life review we see what we have accomplished and what we still need work on. I believe that we "carry over" the lessons that we need to work on from one life to the next until we decide that lesson is complete.

We all have lessons that we want to learn, and some may be better at accomplishing them than others. The more we accomplish, the more we grow, and it seems like the next life is "easier," because we remember where we came from quicker. Once we remember where we came from and use our abilities, life seems easier because we know that we are not alone and always have help when we need it. We also remember our true selves, and realize that our bodies are just a shell, not who or what we really are.

The problem with killing yourself is that you may have needed to learn a lesson from being paralyzed, or help someone else learn an important lesson. If you end your life prematurely, then not only are you cheating yourself out of growing spiritually, but you could also be cheating someone else who may really need your help.

Erin has also posted that if life is too much for us, all we have to do is ask for help. When we ask for help, I believe that if we are suffering so much that we do not think we can handle it, we can ask to die. By asking to die instead of killing ourselves, the "universe" has time to fill in the parts that we were supposed to complete, but we are still there to help until they can find a replacement. My understanding is that if you really want to die, after the universe finds a replacement for our "teaching," then it will do the rest (ie. kill us). It is kinda like what happens when we have completed everything that we were sent to do on earth. Our jobs are done, and we go back home (die).

[themaster]

It's my understanding.. that well suicide is a blessing compared to here.. (I do not claim expertise.. I just claim to pass on knowledge I've learned)

But interestingly enough almost all near death experiences you have had.. should mean that you did die.. infact it's my understanding it's possible to comeback after dying and carry on where you left off (though I wouldn't expect a lot to comeback.. I always say it like this.. if this is hell? what must heaven be like or non-physical) so basically if you have a near death experience on your totem pole.. expect that you have already died.. also expect that many multi-verses of you have died already..

[missing]

Originally Posted by sgregory

Would my soul be in a lowered state because of this even though I truly wanted to live, but not suffer. When I reincarnate will I still have to learn my lessons, and it be harder the next time as Erin wrote in one of her Q&As on her site? Will I just have to go through intense suffering again in the next life if I choose to reincarnate?

it seems wrong to me that the next life would be harder because of a suicide. If you killed yourself it's cause things were too hard and you tried to learn too much. Wouldn't it make more sense for the next life to be "easier" so you could learn your lessons a bit more slowly? You already proved once you had a limit, so what makes anyone think you can handle MORE than you already failed at handling? I suppose this might make for an effective deterrent, so people don't start offing themselves left and right to come back to an easier life. But if that were the case, than perhaps there is something wrong with a lot of people's "life planning" that needs to be collectively addressed.

When we ask for help, I believe that if we are suffering so much that we do not think we can handle it, we can ask to die. By asking to die instead of killing ourselves, the "universe" has time to fill in the parts that we were supposed to complete, but we are still there to help until they can find a replacement. My understanding is that if you really want to die, after the universe finds a replacement for our "teaching," then it will do the rest (ie. kill us).

The problem here is that your giving the universe permission to inflict a lot more suffering on you than if you were to chose your own method of death. Especially if you are young and unlikely to die peacefully. You're most likely in for either in for a bad accident or some kind of disease. The point here is that you want to die to end the suffering, you're not looking for an extra load of it before checking out. I suppose I just don't understand why suicide is viewed so negatively with this kind of spirituality. I don't see why we're supposed to take control of every other aspect of our lives but this one is "bad". It seems so arbitrary. Yeah it's selfish, but so is a lot of other things that are "permitted" and even good.

Even thinking about suicide is "bad"; no matter if you can help it or not. The OP needs to add the disclaimer "I'm not suicidal but...". What difference does it make to the question if one is suicidal or not?

anyway... good topic.

[Mato Kinze]

We incarnate with a plan and with a whole host of spiritual helpers to get us there.

When a person commits suicide, they derail the plan. Regardless of the "pain" or "suffering" you undergo, it is a part of the overall life plan.

To choose to end your "suffering" you're choosing to end your lesson - almost certainly before you've reaped the benefit of it.

Your life is not designed to be "easy". It is designed to teach you that which you need to understand - not just in an intellectual way, but in a visceral, REAL way - about existence and Spirit.

If you want to be strong, you must bear burdens. If you want to be humble, you must be humiliated. If you want to be patient, you must wait for that which you desire. If you want to be merciful, you must find no mercy for yourself.

This is true in this life and doubly true on a spiritual level.

When you commit suicide, you fail to complete your obligation not only to yourself, but to the rest of the Universe with which you've made a pact. Your responsibilities and obligations get shifted to someone/something else and you are left with a spiritual debt. Some call this "Karma."

Until your debt is paid and you accomplish fully that which you agreed to do before incarnation, you will not move to the next level. If you cannot accept this understanding of things, then not only will you not move to the next level, you will be unable to reincarnate because you will be unable to break the bond that ties you to this reality. (For a good "pop" version of what I mean, watch the Robin Williams movie "What Dreams May Come.")

[carenkh]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

We incarnate with a plan and with a whole host of spiritual helpers to get us there.

When a person commits suicide, they derail the plan. Regardless of the "pain" or "suffering" you undergo, it is a part of the overall life plan.

To choose to end your "suffering" you're choosing to end your lesson - almost certainly before you've reaped the benefit of it.

My .02 - I think this is true sometimes, and sometimes it is part of the pact and greater plan that someone would commit suicide. In other words, like everything else in life, there's not one "right" answer.

[missing]

Originally Posted by carenkh

My .02 - I think this is true sometimes, and sometimes it is part of the pact and greater plan that someone would commit suicide. In other words, like everything else in life, there's not one "right" answer.

that's my thinking. Mato is painting with too broad a brush. The tendency to shame people who are considering suicide seems to me inhumane and not compassionate at all. These are people at the end of their rope and you want to kick them when they are down? I mean I expect that from more fundamentalist religions but not those who are supposedly more spiritually enlightened. Of course it's possible that all suicide is a mortal sin on the "other side" but if so than I seriously question whether or not I want to be a part of such a universe in anyway, if there is any choice in the matter. Suffering for the sake of suffering does not seem to me like a good way to achieve spiritual growth. I think if you are suffering so much you'd consider killing yourself it's a sign you are doing something really wrong. At which point fixing things in this life might be futile.

But that's just my .02.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by missing

that's my thinking. Mato is painting with too broad a brush. The tendency to shame people who are considering suicide seems to me inhumane and not compassionate at all. These are people at the end of their rope and you want to kick them when they are down? I mean I expect that from more fundamentalist religions but not those who are supposedly more spiritually enlightened. Of course it's possible that all suicide is a mortal sin on the "other side" but if so than I seriously question whether or not I want to be a part of such a universe in anyway, if there is any choice in the matter. Suffering for the sake of suffering does not seem to me like a good way to achieve spiritual growth. I think if you are suffering so much you'd consider killing yourself it's a sign you are doing something really wrong. At which point fixing things in this life might be futile.

But that's just my .02.

Fair enough. You are free to feel and think whatever you want. But it's been my experience in dealing with the dead - both of their own choice and not - that I'm not painting with a broad brush at all.

We learn most from our pain and struggles - both as individuals and as a species. I have sat at the bedsides of those who were dying. I've watched as they've realized that their tasks were done here. I've also watched people fight for every last breath because they weren't.

I've crossed over spirits who were so heart-broken and anguished that I can't express in words the level of despair they've felt. And I've failed to break through the shell of hate an anger that enshrouded others to the point where they couldn't even accept that there could be something beyond their own hurt.

Almost universally - again "in my experience" - those who take their own lives out of shame, guilt or despair have such low vibrational states that they are unable to continue their journey alone without help.

That being said, I also watched people throw themselves out of the windows of the World Trade Center after the planes struck them to escape the flames and smoke. I have gone there and sought out those souls. I did not find them. This tells me that there are cases in which we DO have a choice in how we die if it's the time for us to do so. And I believe that our Guides, Angels and Allies are there for us when we make that decision.

[sgregory]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

That being said, I also watched people throw themselves out of the windows of the World Trade Center after the planes struck them to escape the flames and smoke. I have gone there and sought out those souls. I did not find them. This tells me that there are cases in which we DO have a choice in how we die if it's the time for us to do so. And I believe that our Guides, Angels and Allies are there for us when we make that decision.

Well, I was wondering what the state of my soul would be after something as horrific as 9/11. Lets say I'm kidnapped and forced to be beaten every day at sundown given a piece of bread and cup of water a day. The rest of my life would e the same, or escape. What would happen to my soul then? Thanks for all your help thus far!

[Mato Kinze]

As I said; we learn from our pain and struggles. You could choose to learn only pain and loss from such an experience. OR you could choose to learn something more constructive.

Many THOUSANDS of people have been in situations just like the ones you described and have chosen to continue to live. WHY? Did they enjoy the pain and loss they were feeling? I would think not. They felt they had more to learn, more to experience, more to contribute. They accepted that the reason for them being here was more important than whether they ENJOYED being here - that what they had to learn in this life may not be learned by being comfortable or even happy.

If you were to commit suicide during such an experience as you described then you would be choosing only to learn pain and suffering, and THAT is what you would take into your next experience and I believe that would hinder you in crossing over.

[Mew3692002]

I do agree with Mato Kinze that it depends on your attitude to each situation that depends on how much you learn from it. Although, to me, you don't really need to suffer to learn lessons, you could learn more from being in a state of peace and develop way more than if you were in a near constant state of suffering and non-enjoyment. In my experience, there are plenty of people that have committed suicide and are perfectly happy on the other side, they weren't punished (only if they punished themselves to what they did to their friends and family that mourned their lost life), so I think suicide isn't the answer, but if a person really feels like that is their last hope, then I wouldn't disagree with committing such an act. You don't have to go through pain and suffering to learn lessons, you could more easily learn the lesson or lessons from a state of happiness and joy than you could from a low state of boredom and suffering. Just my $100.

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Mew3692002

I do agree with Mato Kinze that it depends on your attitude to each situation that depends on how much you learn from it. Although, to me, you don't really need to suffer to learn lessons, you could learn more from being in a state of peace and develop way more than if you were in a near constant state of suffering and non-enjoyment. In my experience, there are plenty of people that have committed suicide and are perfectly happy on the other side, they weren't punished (only if they punished themselves to what they did to their friends and family that mourned their lost life), so I think suicide isn't the answer, but if a person really feels like that is their last hope, then I wouldn't disagree with committing such an act. You don't have to go through pain and suffering to learn lessons, you could more easily learn the lesson or lessons from a state of happiness and joy than you could from a low state of boredom and suffering. Just my $100.

But the key is to learn the lesson. In most instances (and I have yet to personally experience a suicide that doesn't support this) those that chose suicide did so to "escape" the lesson - Not learn it.

You could learn that fire was hot by being told by everyone that it was over and over again over years and years - and MAYBE you'd truly believe it. OR you could stick your hand in once. Either way, the lesson is learned. One could argue that if learning the lesson is the solely desired result, sticking your hand in is definitley the surest way to cement the lesson.

Our Guides are not overly concerned with our comfort or "happiness". They are there to make sure we learn our lessons - the purpose for which we came here in the first place.

When I was 15, my stepfather would drink all night long and pass out on the sofa in the family room. I'd get up in the morning to get ready for school and he'd be all sprawled out with beer cans strewn all around the room.

No big deal - by itself.

Unfortunately, he also liked to play with guns. So not only would he drink all night, but he'd have five or six handguns in various stages of assembly and functionality.

I was 15 and knew what a gun was and how it worked and what to be careful of, so again - no big deal.

BUT... my four year-old sister did not know what a gun was, what it could do or how it worked.

So, the morning I came into the family room and saw my baby sister playing with a loaded .44 magnum, I realized that she needed to learn.

How do you teach a 4 year-old what a gun is and what it can do?

I took her outside, took her favorite stuffed animal - the one she slept with every night and carried around with her like a security blanket - put it on the ground and told her, "Kiddo, THIS is a gun." I pointed it at the teddy bear and said to her, "This is what guns do," and I pulled the trigger.

The 145 grain, hollow point literally exploded the teddy bear and the noise from the gun had MY ears ringing for two days, I can only imagine what hers were like.

In this case, I NEEDED my baby sister to understand immediately in a very visceral and REAL sense what a gun is and what it does. I couldn't use words, I couldn't use reasoning, I couldn't just tell her it was a "no-no". There was far too much at stake for her to think anything else.

Did she like that lesson? Hell no. She cried for days because she didn't have her "Normy" anymore. Did I feel like **** because I'd had to do that her? You bet. But she and everyone else in my family was safer because she knew that guns were very dangerous and could result in a terrible loss that couldn't be fixed.

Our Guides are in the same position with us. And sometimes, there are things that we need to get, and we need to get RIGHT NOW and get in a way that is unquestionable in its meaning. Those lessons are seldom "painless" or without "suffering".

If we choose to end the lesson by suicide, then we choose failure.

[sgregory]

But can't I just suicide and then get another chance at learning lessons, maybe in a different body which didn't have to suffer all the time?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by sgregory

But can't I just suicide and then get another chance at learning lessons, maybe in a different body which didn't have to suffer all the time?

Perhaps - if you existed in a vaccum and nothing you did had any consequences to anyone else. Life is not that neat and tidy though. The lessons you are here to learn are intimately connected and enmeshed with everyone and evrything else's. When you duck out on your responsibilities in this life, you fail to uphold your agreement with all the rest of the universe.

So when you commit suicide, not only are quitting YOUR lesson, you're keeping others from experiencing theirs as well. When you do this, you create MORE lessons to learn in your next experience because you go into your next experience with a debt. Buddhists call this cosmic debt "Karma".

In short; "Suck it up." Every experience is a gift from the Universe to help you be the person you are meant to be. Don't short-change yourself or the rest of the Universe by being pathetic and selfish.

[kornefrog]

If you end your life prematurely, then not only are you cheating yourself out of growing spiritually, but you could also be cheating someone else who may really need your help.


that comment is from the 1st response. that struck a nerve with me.......a real what if!!

[Harmonium]

Originally Posted by Mato Kinze

Perhaps - if you existed in a vaccum and nothing you did had any consequences to anyone else. Life is not that neat and tidy though. The lessons you are here to learn are intimately connected and enmeshed with everyone and evrything else's. When you duck out on your responsibilities in this life, you fail to uphold your agreement with all the rest of the universe.

So when you commit suicide, not only are quitting YOUR lesson, you're keeping others from experiencing theirs as well. When you do this, you create MORE lessons to learn in your next experience because you go into your next experience with a debt. Buddhists call this cosmic debt "Karma".

In short; "Suck it up." Every experience is a gift from the Universe to help you be the person you are meant to be. Don't short-change yourself or the rest of the Universe by being pathetic and selfish.

Feels like you fell short on optimism when trying to get your point across, it feels really cold

Why do I feel so confused?

[Mato Kinze]

Originally Posted by Harmonium

Feels like you fell short on optimism when trying to get your point across, it feels really cold

Why do I feel so confused?

I hold little sympathy and zero optimism for those who would choose the cowardly act of ending their life instead of improving it. Those who would rob not only themselves but all the rest of creation of the purpose and benefit of their existance need neither. They need help, they need compassion, they need guidance, they need understanding.

If someone's life's so shitty that they feel they need to end it, they don't need optimism, they need a reality check. They need help in getting that they haven't "lost" anything because they never "had" anything to begin with.

Every experience in this life, every relationship is transitory. Everything we experience is meant to be a lesson in living - "good" AND "bad". Every person that comes into our lives has a gift to bring us. Maybe that gift is Love, maybe it's pain. But each experience makes us who we are and lays the foundation for what we need to become.

If we stop experiencing things, then we stop learning the lessons that are designed to make us what we need to be. It would be like stopping exercising because it doesn't feel good then blaming the Universe because you don't have any energy.

People who commit suicide lack the fundamental understanding of their role in the Universe. They fail to get how essential they are. OR they somehow don't care about anything but their own perceptions of good and bad and their own immediate comfort.

If you want to not be confused, stop confusing yourself. Your life is a journey. What you experience today is unique from every other day. What you experience tomorrow will be unique again. Live for the experience that the Universe has prepared for you so that you can be who and what you are supposed to be; both in this life AND the next experience.

[help4me]

After reading this thread I am taken back to my grade school years and high school years. I was horribly teased. I had a couple of friends, but most days I'd come home from school and cry because of the teasing. Many times I thought of violence as the answer... killing them and myself. I just wanted it to stop and I didn't know how else to make it stop. But all I did was think about such things.

Because of how I was treated in school, I learned many things. I learned that othe people's opinion of myself doesn't really matter. If I am being true to myself, then to hell with everyone else. I learned compassion. I treat people with kindness and a certain amount of respect because I learned how much it hurts to be shunned. I've learned to keep my ego in check. I celebrate my accomplishments, but not to the point that I forget my true self. Facing those struggles everyday in school laid the foundation for my inner strength and determination to grow. Now, twenty years later, is when I am seeing the benefits of that. Had I not had the childhood/young adult hood that I did, I would not have been able to deal with personal events that have happened over the last three years. It takes courage to live. That's the most universal thing that everyone can learn through any hardship, any suffering that crosses their path. Courage. Courage to keep trying. Courage to be the person they were meant to be.

This Saturday I am speaking to a group of young adults about this very topic. A group of kids that seem to have given up on themselves. A group of kids that think this is the best there is and that they have no power to make a difference. Because of my path in life, maybe I can change their mind. Maybe I can give them hope.

I've made a difference in the lives of my two children. I can understand their pain when they are teased. They know of the current struggles we as a family face, but because I keep trying, so do they. They are learning, by watching me, how to find solutions, how to keep trying, even when things seem hopeless. How do I know? Because they tell me, and I see it in the choices they make.

How would our lives be different if our "inspirations" had ended their life when the going got tough?

[lasti]

I think: We chose to incarnate, we chose our lessons and so we can chose to end our lifes, no matter what. We're responsible for what we do and that's it.
What if you run from your lessons?
Well, that's your choice - you don't have to learn anything here.

I have to say that I made the biggest growing experiences when I enjoyed my life, because then I could consciously chose to learn.
I don't want to live a life that has not the primary aim to bring joy to myself and to the world.

[missing]

Originally Posted by lasti

I think: We chose to incarnate, we chose our lessons and so we can chose to end our lifes, no matter what. We're responsible for what we do and that's it.
What if you run from your lessons?
Well, that's your choice - you don't have to learn anything here.

I have to say that I made the biggest growing experiences when I enjoyed my life, because then I could consciously chose to learn.
I don't want to live a life that has not the primary aim to bring joy to myself and to the world.

i don't know if we really "choose" to incarnate. It's certainly a plausibility, but if so, we aren't given any objective proof of the matter. All we have is faith or belief. What a lot of people express here as "truth" really has no more validity than a whacko fundamentalist saying gays are all going to hell. Perhaps to them it's "true". Perhaps God, or "guides" really do speak to them in a way they can objectively verify. How would I know? All I know for certain is that such entities are usually absent to me, or they are very, very quiet. I don't see this as a negative thing, but rather a sign that they trust me to make decisions in life on my own, without excessive guidance. I'm receptive to any messages from the "ether", but the ones I do get are very vague, mysterious and open ended compared to the concrete "rules" other people seem to get (or claim to get but really make up; how would I know?). There can't be a "right" or "wrong" answer to suicide to glean from the messages I get.

The general perception that suicide is "wrong" only comes from OTHER PEOPLE, not any higher spiritual entity. There are myriad things that would explain this, but I believe it all comes down to the basic fact that people are alive, thus it must be "good". It's simple self interest. Seeing others kill themselves is an affront to this idea; that it's better to be alive than dead. It's easier to stick with denial than to change deep seeded beliefs. So rather than question what makes people prefer death to life, people just revert to incessant shaming towards the whole practice of ending ones life (irregardless of circumstance). There is no greater social motivator than shame. Most people would rather die than experience too much of it. Talk about a negative feedback loop!

I think to be against suicide is to take a very authoritarian view towards existence. It's basically saying that you do not own your life, and you have no right to do with it what you want. Yes, ending your life could effect others, but not in all cases. What if the effect on others is not your responsibility? A parent who decides to have a child CHOOSES to bring this new life into the world, and invest a large part of their existence in this child. The child does not have a choice. A parent who commits suicide is being selfish, if they leave the child who depends on them. But the child who commits suicide, thus harming the parent? That's very different. The child did not ask to be born, and did not ask to have the responsibility of caring for their parents well being. It was FORCED upon them, by the actions of the world.

Sure, you can try and justify social convention via some "past-life-we-choose-our-existence-and-parents-thus-we-are-responsible" philosophy. This might be easier for those who have a hard time thinking for themselves, and would rather be told by others what is true. Hell, it might even be the truth, but it's not the reality we (or "I" personally) have been presented with. When it comes down to it, I have to make decisions based on what reality "is", not what it "might be" or what others tell me it might be. Based on this, I see no objective reason to be against suicide. Based on what I know about it on earth, I reject an authoritarian view of existence. I believe my life belongs to me. No other person or higher level entity can tell me what to do with it, including not end it. If there is a price to pay in the next world for this stance, so be it. I did the best I could here, and if that's not good enough for the PTB in the ether, than I'm not good enough for them. End of story.

disclaimer; I'm not suicidal so nobody jump to conclusions. But I'm aware circumstances can change and I like to be psychologically prepared.

disclaimer 2; i realize my view on this topic is not popular with some people. it is what it is, so don't waste your breath arguing me. I won't change my stance. I'm merely trying to provide an alternative viewpoint to the onslaught of knee-jerk, thoughtless (ie, people don't think about it, for good reason as under analysis it doesn't hold up) concepts that "suicide is bad". It's only bad if you decide it's bad, not if somebody else tells you it is. You're life belongs to "you", and unless you want to cede that power to others (many prefer this), you can do what you want with it.

[themaster]

It's nice to talk about suicide without the negative stigma of it..

I once wrote a paper when I was 15 or so on it.. and then re-wrote that paper when I was 17 showed it to the wrong person and got some health workers on me.. (ehh.. I hate health workers especially giddy ones)

I'm a big fan of Kevorkian and consider him one of my heroes at least I used to pre-LOA can't say for sure now.. I was to be honest thinking for quite some time about getting legislation done for people who wanted to leave

I absolutely believe that if people don't want to be here they should LEAVE.. But after LOA.. I also understand that if you want to LEAVE you might just come back anyway.. as I pointed out above..

For those of you who have guides or shall we say non-physical knowledge access.. you should ask if you have died? and have you chosen to comeback many times? I did this in a way the other day through a method I use.. I got direct answers to my questions..

[wachusettgirl]

Originally Posted by missing

The general perception that suicide is "wrong" only comes from OTHER PEOPLE, not any higher spiritual entity. There are myriad things that would explain this, but I believe it all comes down to the basic fact that people are alive, thus it must be "good". It's simple self interest. Seeing others kill themselves is an affront to this idea; that it's better to be alive than dead. It's easier to stick with denial than to change deep seeded beliefs. So rather than question what makes people prefer death to life, people just revert to incessant shaming towards the whole practice of ending ones life (irregardless of circumstance). There is no greater social motivator than shame. Most people would rather die than experience too much of it. Talk about a negative feedback loop!

This is a very interesting point, and one that I'd never really givin much thought to. It's true that most of us have been conditioned to believe that suicide is just not right, and somehow upsets a natural balance or order. I'm pretty sure that I learned as a child that taking one's own life was a certain way to not get to heaven. I could look at a teenage suicide and feel that it was a terrible waste by someone who was being short-sighted, because I truly value my life. But I can't really sit in judgement because I haven't known that kind of profound despair. With regards to lessons and karma, whose to say that the person who commits suicide isn't fulfilling that in some way. Maybe they are providing a lesson about love or forgiveness for someone who they've left behind...

[Elfwing]

When you're suicidal, a "reality check" might be what you need, but it's very likely just to make the suicidal feel worse. I've been there. And I felt the guilt knowing I was supposed to be better but didn't know how to get there, couldn't summon the courage to climb up that cliff face myself. And it just added to it.

Reality checks take a lot of courage to accept. And if you're suicidal, you don't give a rat's you-know-what if you're cowardly or not. You just want out. You just want it to end.

And I agree - suicide can be a lesson in itself. What if there were two people - A and B, I'll call them. A's incredibly depressed and wants to die. Just before they do it, B kills themself. A is horribly shocked and stunned. A finds a way and gets out of the depression, and ends up doing something major later and making huge differences to many people's lives. Which they couldn't have done if B hadn't died, because then A would have killed themselves.

I'm not saying "go kill yourself", or that suicide is good. I'm just saying it shouldn't be condemned, because as someone else said - condemnation is kicking them when they're down. Adding insult to injury. Really - I think that people who are saying "Suck it up" are people who need to develop compassion and patience. And I'll admit - that's something I need to develop myself. Even though I've both (badly - I wouldn't have died even if I didn't go to my parents to stem the bleeding after I freaked out and realised it wasn't what I was supposed to do) attempt suicide and had one of my best friends attempt suicide not long after I did, I honestly don't know how to help people down there when I look at them.

But like the person above said with the teddy bear and the gun - sometimes those lessons are needed. I needed to attempt suicide - it was the one event that, for sure, turned my life around. I didn't realise that death wasn't what I wanted until I'd sliced my arm open. And to drive the point home, my friend overdosed (but survived, thank the gods). Will I ever be there again? I sure as hell hope not, because if I ever will be, it means I'll have forgotten the lessons that I learned from both of those experiences.

Both of these lessons were risky. Gone horribly wrong, not one person, but two people would have died. (When my friend overdosed, I was the one who called another of his friends, who managed to convince him to go to the hospital with his parents.) I'm just very, very grateful that the lessons were executed perfectly, and that both of us survived. And neither of the two of us have ever been there again. I'll admit - there have been times since when I just wished I was dead. But I've never, ever hurt myself again and would never actually go through with it again. I've learned.

I was given compassion, and since that day I rejected it, I had my teddy shot instead. It was a one off thing, but I was playing with a gun at the time and needed to be shown. It's brutal. Sometimes brutal lessons are needed. But that doesn't mean we condemn it or judge them. I doubt Mato judged his sister when she needed that lesson - he just carried it out. That's what we need to do. Not judge them, but help them learn.