Supernatural phenomena are a product of the brain!

[Radical]

Who am I? Are we like a machine or are we more then a machine?

The question is what is that “I” that we refer to. Is it a body part? Or is it a characteristic or a property of some body part or an organ. Is it really separate from our body? What do we mean by separate from our body? Where does that “I” reside?

Let us take an example. Suppose you are healthy today. Then one day your hand gets cut off. You recovered and after that you will still feel that you have the same central entity “I” within you. You will say “my hand got cut off but I did not die”. So hand is not “I”. You will have same perception of “I” before and after the accident when your hand got cut off. Take another example, suppose you got a heart transplant and after your recovery you will say that I have now different heart but I am still alive. Here again your perception of “I” is still same. You still have same habits. You have all your memory still intact. “I” still is same before and after heart transplant.

These types of examples makes us feel that “I” is not part of the body because when an organ or a body part is cut off or replaced then the feeling of “I” does not go away. It still remains same within us. You remember your family. You have the same old opinion of “I” as before the organ or body parts was replaced. You still have your old desires and problems. You feel that “I” is still same. So you may feel that “I” does not belong to hands or legs or any other body parts.

What if the body parts that we talked about in previous paragraph refers to brain. Will you have the same feeling of “I” if your brain is damaged or if you had a brain transplant? I claim you won’t. At this time medically brain transplant is not possible. Science has not advanced that much that we can transplant brain from one person to another person. You should ask the question that would you feel the same “I”, if you go through brain transplant or if you were unconscious? If you ask the question, you will find out that you will not feel the same “I”.

We have known cases where person’s brain is damaged. Then at some point they recover. When they were unconscious then the feeling of “I” was not there else they were not unconscious. You can go through this exercise yourself. Suppose if you were unconscious for some reason or if you were under general anesthesia, would you have feeling of “I”? The feeling of “I” goes away. Only during waking hours or sometimes during dreams you get the feeling of “I”. This tells us that feeling of “I” is produced by brain cells. It is a property of the brain cells that produce this feeling.

So what is the “I” that we refer to ourselves? It is a feeling that happens in brain. It is not a separate entity from brain. Similarly we go through feeling of sorrow and pleasure in our brain. The feeling of “I” is not same as emotional feelings of pain and pleasure but it is another type of feeling that makes us feel that there is a separate entity called “I”. I am not expert in how brain works but in brain there are brain cells called neurons. Within these cells and among these cells there are electro-chemical reactions happening in the brain. The feeling of “I” may be caused by these reactions or communications between neurons or because of some entire different activity. What I am trying to point out is that it happens in brain and is caused by some brain activity.

This leads us to the conclusion that the feeling of “I” is part of the brain. The feeling is such that it has the characteristic that it makes us feel that “I” is separate from our body but it is the characteristic of the feeling. It is still a feeling that is happening in our brain. It is part of our body. The reason I am saying that it is part of our body is that because the feeling happens in our brain and brain is part of our body so that feeling of “I” is part of our body. But the characteristic of this feeling is that it does make us feel separate from our body but it is really not separate from our body. When brain is damaged or unconscious then the feeling of “I” is no longer there.

What are the implications of the above conclusion that feeling of the “I” is part of the brain which is part of the body?

What happens when we die? At some point and time our body is going to stop functioning and we are going to die. It is the same fate for all of us. By using science we can extend the life but ultimately we all are going to die. When we die our brain stops functioning. The feeling of “I” is no longer remains because the brain is not functioning. It is like when a computer’s central processing unit (the brain of the computer – we call it CPU) dies, it cannot process instructions. Similarly when our brain dies and when we die the feeling of “I” goes away. It is no longer there because brain is dead.

This leads us to a conclusion that the feeling of “I” is only temporary and happens in brain and it lasts only as long as we are alive and brain is functioning. After death the whole body and brain dies and there is no “I”. There is no permanent “I” or there is no central entity, which lasts after the death of the body and brain. The unique genetic combination in this universe that has produced our body and brain will no longer exist. “I” is a feeling, which also goes with the death of the body and brain. It goes forever.

From above discussion let me say what we mean by life.

We are born somewhere on this planet. It is sheer luck where we were born. Also the unique genes from our parents have produced our body. Our body has its own properties like a tree has its own properties. When a seed grows it takes the shape of a tree and when fertile human egg grows it takes the shape of a human body. Then our body goes through different stages throughout our lifetime. From childhood it grows and we enter adulthood. Then we enter in to mid life and our body ( we ) starts going down hill. At some point body starts deteriorating and then it dies. At that point the unique body that existed for short period of time on this earth no longer exists. The unique genetic combination in this universe that has produced our body dies and the game is over for us. The feeling of “I” also goes away with the death of our body.

This leads us to conclusion that we are just like a machine. We are our body. Our body is set of parts and organs. The brain is one of the organs. It produces these effects of “I”, identity, intuition, intelligence etc. When our body thus brain dies then the feeling of “I”, identity etc. all goes away since functioning brain is no longer there. This tells us that there is no permanent separate residual entity remains in us after the death of the body. Also when we are alive there is no separate entity in us. These feelings are just property of the brain. The brain produces them.

[Radical]

Question: what is a thought?

Answer: I am not an expert in how brain works. But thought is some kind of a process that happens in our brain. Exactly what is the process that causes thought, I do not know. It can be some kind of electro-chemical reaction or it can be some communication between neurons, which can be electro-chemical reaction or some other type of process. We are not here to find out what chemical or electro-chemical or what other process causes thought, but I will state that, like “I”, thought is some kind of a process that happens in brain. Similar to “I” when brain dies then thought also dies with death of the brain because thought can only exists as long as brain exists and functions. This is true for other emotions and feeling of “I” too. They go away once and for all, when brain dies.

Question: People describe out of body experiences? Don’t they exist?
Answer: Let us go slowly in to what you mean by out of body experience. Let us take an example of out of body experience. Suppose when you are sleeping then you get a dream that you are separate from your body and you are flying in the air.

Examine what is happening here. You have a thought that goes through your brain giving you the feeling that you are flying in air and you are separate from your body. But it is still a thought that is happening in your brain. Physically you are still there in the bed. Thought goes through your brain and makes you feel that you are flying.

The same thing happens when you are reading a book or watching a movie. When you are reading a book you feel that you are somewhere in the plot of the book. You are physically there. In a movie you feel that you are in a movie somewhere else. Physically you are still in your room or in a theater. The activity or processes which goes through your brain makes you feel that you are somewhere else but they are just some processes or thoughts going through the brain. You are still at the same place. They are just the thoughts going through your brain giving you the feeling of separateness.

Out of body experiences are nothing but thoughts telling you that you are separate from body and physically you are located somewhere else. The whole game is played in your brain. You are still in your bed if you are sleeping at that time.

Question: People talk about mystical, magical experiences. They also experience God and other different things. Don’t you think that they have any value?

Answer: Where does all these experiences happen? They are product of brain. Brain thinks and makes all those experiences. If a person is totally unconscious, he or she will not feel any of those experiences. The person should be totally unconscious under anesthesia. What this means is that our body is a machine. Like machine has different parts, our body has different parts. Brain is one of the part or organ of the body-machine. This body part brain creates all these experiences. That is all these out of body experiences, experience of seeing God, experience of some magical or mystical experiences, seeing angels etc. They are all product of the brain.

We are bored in our life. We are confused and we do not know what to do with our life. We generate all these things and believe in them so we have something to hang on to. All these experiences and all we talk about supernatural, magical and mystical things are useless. Brain is seeking something to hold on to. So it holds on to all these supernatural phenomena. Spirituality and all these magical beliefs are fairy tales. It has no value.

[Scott]

I don't think anyone here is questioning that these things are a product of the brain. The brain is one heck of an amazing machine. It gives us our experiences and causes us to question them. It's the only type of brain in existence (at least in my perception of existence) that is capable of studying itself.

Aside from the fact that you make no mention whatsoever of phenomena which involve interactions between multiple, real, living humans (e.g. telepathy), let me ask you this...

What's your point?

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Scott

What's your point?

Please reread my post. My point is very clear. My point is basically that anything supernatural is just a product of the brain, not reality.

[Erki]

Wasn't reality the product of the brain? :

[Savage]

@Radical: Your belief system is similar to what I believed when I was your age (19).

[Athena]

I wonder if Steve thinks that was a good sequence in the evolution of his belief system?

Maybe first we need to live in objective reality, in the dimension of science and logic first, and understand life there, before we can be fully open to exploring the dimension of spirit and subjective reality and the paranormal.

In terms of life phases, it's probably better to do so maybe in our teens and twenties, and maybe after we are more settled in the 'real world', in our late thirties and beyond begin to explore more of the spirit realm?

It's probably good to understand some of the principles of the spirit, but maybe it's better to explore it more when in the appropriate phase in my life. I feel the same way with the phases.. I was very hard atheist/egoist/objectivist in my first two years of college, but I think that phase was important for learning certain things about the world. I definitely think that opening up to spirit and the paranormal dimension is great and all, but all in proper timing.

Kind of corresponding with life phases of athlete/ego, teacher/spirit.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by Radical

Please reread my post. My point is very clear. My point is basically that anything supernatural is just a product of the brain, not reality.

If you edit your essay down to 1-2 paragraphs, the flaws in your logic will become clearer.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

@Radical: Your belief system is similar to what I believed when I was your age (19).

Then you got bewitched by love and married a psychic.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

If you edit your essay down to 1-2 paragraphs, the flaws in your logic will become clearer.

Please point them out.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by Athena

Maybe first we need to live in objective reality, in the dimension of science and logic first, and understand life there, before we can be fully open to exploring the dimension of spirit and subjective reality and the paranormal.

As a society, we do not allow "subjective reality" types to build our bridges, fly our planes, or practice surgery. The people who depended on them would die.

We do allow them to become writers, because in this profession they cannot do much harm to others.

If the Internet had been built on the theory of subjective reality, this website would not exist. So show a little respect for the sacrifices and hard work that made your solipsism possible.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Athena

In terms of life phases, it's probably better to do so maybe in our teens and twenties, and maybe after we are more settled in the 'real world', in our late thirties and beyond begin to explore more of the spirit realm?

Lol, yes live in the 'real world' whilst it suits you, then when your too old and decrepit to do the things that used to bring you joy, or perhaps you're just too sick and tired of failing to fill that never ending inner void, you can retreat to the comfort of your imagination (i.e. the spiritual world).

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Radical

Please point them out.

Gladly. You're saying that the brain creates these supernatural experiences out of need for something to hold on to, or even out of boredom. Who can say that the sound science you put so much stock into isn't created because of the same effects? Just because it appears to you that more people experience reality the same way you do makes it such that your reality is the only "correct" one? What if my reality happens to be completely different from yours? What makes your reality better than mine?

Before you continue to argue, ask yourself this: What if there were more psychics in the world than there were scientists? Would scientists then not be considered the "weird ones"?

[Savage]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

As a society, we do not allow "subjective reality" types to build our bridges, fly our planes, or practice surgery. The people who depended on them would die.

People do die from collapsed bridges, plane crashes, and surgery. An objective belief system doesn't eliminate those risks.

For a subjective belief system to be accurate, it must be congruent with your experience of reality. A genuine subjective belief system doesn't make you any less capable of functioning in the physical world. Overall it makes you more capable by reducing fear and encouraging more action.

Imagine playing a computer game. Does the knowledge that it's just a simulation prevent you from learning the rules of the game and becoming an accomplished player? Of course not. In fact, you may be more likely to become a skilled player vs. someone who is totally convinced the game is real, especially if the game involves risk.

The major difference between subjective and objective reality is a matter of perspective. There's nothing to stop someone with a subjective belief system from mastering the rules of the physical universe. It's much like deciding to master a computer game -- it takes a lot of practice.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Radical

Then you got bewitched by love and married a psychic.

Now you know where you're headed.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

The major difference between subjective and objective reality is a matter of perspective. There's nothing to stop someone with a subjective belief system from mastering the rules of the physical universe. It's much like deciding to master a computer game -- it takes a lot of practice.

Yes, we will never know the true nature of reality, only our perception of it. Our body-machine perceives the world through its 5 senses. Our brain interprets these signals. Perception is nothing but the interpretation of these signals by the brain.

However, this doesn’t negate the fact that we need a fully functioning brain in order to have these perceptions. So, to all the people claiming we don’t need a physical body with a fully functioning brain in order to be conscious and have thoughts, take a hammer to your brain and smash it in a bit, then see what perceptions you have.

The brain is physical, it is objective, it is us. When the brain dies, we die.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

All I am going to say is I do not agree with one word you said but you are entitled to your beliefs. I despise the way you speak as if what you say is KNOWN fact. EVERYTHING that you see, touch, feel, hear, smell is ENERGY. The SCIENCE you are so FAITHFUL in has already PROVED that energy cannot be destroyed, only changed... Besides that you act like you KNOW that the self is gone when the brain ceases to function...not even science knows what happens after death to our sense of "I" and they have not PROVED that it resides in the mind. Do some more research my friend. Also try and organize your thoughts in a fasion we can understand, I feel like I am talking to a 12 year old, no offense...

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Radical

So, to all the people claiming we don’t need a physical body with a fully functioning brain in order to be conscious and have thoughts, take a hammer to your brain and smash it in a bit, then see what perceptions you have.

The brain is physical, it is objective, it is us. When the brain dies, we die.

Well you need your brain and body to communicate with the material world...so if I smash my head in and destroy my brain I have NO doubt that I will still exist, but I certainly will NOT be able to tell you about it for a couple reasons. You already would believe me to be gone and no matter how loud I shouted your closed mind would NOT hear my calls or see the signs I would leave for you. PROVE that when the brain dies we die, prove it or stop talking like it is a fact. Thanks...

[Radical]

Originally Posted by DoAnyOfYouExist

Well you need your brain and body to communicate with the material world...so if I smash my head in and destroy my brain I have NO doubt that I will still exist, but I certainly will NOT be able to tell you about it for a couple reasons. You already would believe me to be gone and no matter how loud I shouted your closed mind would NOT hear my calls or see the signs I would leave for you. PROVE that when the brain dies we die, prove it or stop talking like it is a fact. Thanks...

I have already reasoned why this is the case, clearly though you are not interested in my posts, but are only concerned with defending your beliefs and no amount of reason, logic or common sense will convince you otherwise.

The biggest hurdle in questioning and reasoning is fear. You have a set of beliefs. Beliefs about heaven, hell, soul etc. If you will question your beliefs then you will have to let your beliefs go. As an example if I say that there is no such thing as heaven and hell. They are just imaginations to avoid the fear of death. If you question your belief about heaven and hell then you are making yourself insecure. You may be afraid that you do not know where you will go after your death.

The only existence we know of is this current physical existence. Our brain interprets signals from the senses and these interpretations are stored in our brain as memories. Life is this sequence of perceptions from the birth of the body to the death of the body. If we reset our memory somehow, maybe we suffer a total amnesia, then this self we identify with today would cease to exist. I can't prove that there is no existence after death, but I can make a hypothesis based on reasoning that when the brain dies we too will die (because brain and "I" are really the same thing).

[Reality Handbook]

Originally Posted by Radical

Supernatural phenomena are a product of the brain!

Steve brought up video games and I think it's a good metaphor to use.

Imagine a person seated on a sofa playing Super Mario Brothers. Every move that Super Mario makes precisely correlates with a signal received on a Nintendo controller--that's the way it works. Yet if Luigi were studying Mario from inside-the-Nintendo, it might be very difficult to "see" the person sitting on the couch who is playing. Everything would appear to originate from "the controller"...so phenomena like the fingers pushing could be discovered only as tiny cul-de-sacs and footnotes of "gamepad science".

I am reminded of this poem about blind men and an elephant:

Blind Men and the Elephant (a.k.a., "Blindmen") (by John Godfrey Saxe).

There's no doubting it: the brain is clearly a bottleneck by which our presence in the physical world using the "5 senses" is accomplished. Just like you-as-Mario can't be animated without a controller, you-as-Radical can't be animated without a brain. But the broader question is about where the identity lies...and what do you want to study. Are you interested in Mario, or are you interested in the person playing the game seated on a couch?

Neither is an intrinsically invalid place to start. While you are playing the game you become Mario. So it might seem that a study fixated on the paradigm of the Nintendo controller as the "source" is sensible, all else is irrelevant because it is only techniques that affect the controller that further you in the game. Yet some people are interested in other questions...like are there other game cartridges, or is there beer in the fridge.

[Dharma]

Originally Posted by Radical

However, this doesn’t negate the fact that we need a fully functioning brain in order to have these perceptions. So, to all the people claiming we don’t need a physical body with a fully functioning brain in order to be conscious and have thoughts, take a hammer to your brain and smash it in a bit, then see what perceptions you have.

The brain is physical, it is objective, it is us. When the brain dies, we die.

The brain is the point of RECEPTION on the physical plane for the mental body. The mental body has the thoughts regardless of whether we are in physicality or not. Injure the brain and you remove the reception of consciousness on the physical plane. The consciousness is still there, it is always there, but not received in the physical.

[DoAnyOfYouExist]

Originally Posted by Dharma

The brain is the point of RECEPTION on the physical plane for the mental body. The mental body has the thoughts regardless of whether we are in physicality or not. Injure the brain and you remove the reception of consciousness on the physical plane. The consciousness is still there, it is always there, but not received in the physical.

Thank you. Radical I have NO problems questioning my "beliefs" and I do it on a daily basis, I question EVERYTHING I see on a daily basis. I know NONE of this is "real" but yet it is....thats all, it just IS. I AM, bottom line and I WILL BE always... I've been to the edge and back...theres a gap to jump and next time I venture to the gap I am JUMPING, I'll be back to tell you what I discovered...What is REAL to me is the experiences I have...they ARE MY REALITY plain and simple...you have your reality...why do you keep limiting your reality...there is SO MUCH MORE to the puzzle...you just need to make the pieces fit...its all in your hands....

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Dharma

The brain is the point of RECEPTION on the physical plane for the mental body. The mental body has the thoughts regardless of whether we are in physicality or not. Injure the brain and you remove the reception of consciousness on the physical plane. The consciousness is still there, it is always there, but not received in the physical.

Geez, the lengths some brains will go to, to avoid the fear of death.

In that case what about brain damaged people? Does their consciousness somehow get damaged in the so called non-physical plane, or are they just faking retardation?

Also, when we are asleep we are not conscious, and our brains don't have any perceptions. We may have dreams, but they are just hazy thoughts floating around from previous perceptions.

If our "mental body" has thoughts regardless of our state in the "physical plane", then being brain damaged or asleep/unconscious shouldn't affect our ability to perceive, and yet it does - explain that!

PS The self we identify with in the "physical plane" i.e our brain, is all we know. It has learned through experience, gained memories, and changed perceptions. So the question of whether or not some intangible entity exists in a non-physical plane is irrelevant. The death of the brain will be the death of the "I" that we know and love.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by Radical

The self we identify with in the "physical plane" i.e our brain, is all we know. It has learned through experience, gained memories, and changed perceptions. So the question of whether or not some intangible entity exists in a non-physical plane is irrelevant. The death of the brain will be the death of the "I" that we know and love.

Call me crazy, but I fail to see how this disagrees with most of the ideas that have been presented on the Pavlinas' sites. Nobody is claiming that we're all born as humans with a magical ability to connect with spirits, etc. etc. (though there may be a few people like that). Take Erin's site, for example - her whole theme is about learning to reconnect with God/Source. If you never attempt this, then of course you're not going to know anything beyond what you experience in your physical body. Make sense?

By the way, for someone whose signature is "Question everything!", you aren't asking a lot of questions. I humbly suggest taking your own advice with your own beliefs before trying to make broad generalizations about the beliefs of others.

[Parthon]

In this thread there's a lot of attacking and defending of beliefs, explaining beliefs in detail and generally trying to convince someone of something else.

And these aren't your usual "do you believe in god" beliefs, these our our life contexts. Things we don't just believe in but we think are real. You get what you look for and you look for what you get. Radical really believes he lives in a mechanical, scientific and objective universe, and from there it really does look like the "I" that we associate with ourselves comes from the existant of the physical brain.

But I ask: Why believe in something? Why change your context at all? Why defend your beliefs?

The main reason to believe in something is because you are getting something out of it. Most people who aren't enlightened believe in an objective universe because it stops them from having to be responsible about their role in life. Many people who are enlightened believe in it too because in an objective world allows them to achieve great results in a mechanical world. These would be scientists and the like.

Now, look at what you get out of each belief, each context of life. The only way to do that is to try it.

And I believe the greatest thing to get out of any belief/context is power. Power to create what you want for the world, and for myself that context is a subjective universe where all is one, and you are connected to everything else. There is no limit to what you can do, just a limit within yourself as to what you can perceive that can be done.

So before you feel a need to defend your own beliefs from someone who has different beliefs, realise that that's your ego holding onto an idea and use that opening to be compassionate to others, their beliefs could be holding them back or pushing them forwards in ways you can't see. Remember that every moment is an opportunity to grow.

Radical: I like your post, it's rather well thought out. But what does looking at the world in that way allow you to do? It seems rather restrictive and isolationist from what I've experienced.

ps. I know I sidelined the conversation, but I didn't see any people talking about growth, just defending positions.

[munish]

After trying it for 2 months,I feel subjective reality is the only way to live sanely in this world.I listen to Steve's podcast every day.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by Radical

So, to all the people claiming we don’t need a physical body with a fully functioning brain in order to be conscious and have thoughts, take a hammer to your brain and smash it in a bit, then see what perceptions you have.

Or you could skip the head-bashing and just ask a dead person. Suicide is considered a very bad idea on the other side -- it only makes things harder for you once you cross over.

[escapee]

Ha .. This is pretty much what i thought during college year ..

For now I do like the analogy of WORLD WIDE COMMUNICATION presented by Dr Van lommel . It's very logical and "scientific" .

In trying to understand this concept of quantum mechanical mutual interaction between the invisible phase-space and our visible, material body, it seems appropriate to compare it with modern worldwide communication. There is a continuous exchange of objective information by means of electromagnetic fields for radio, TV, mobile telephone, or laptop computer. We are unaware of the vast amounts of electromagnetic fields that constantly, day and night, exist around us and through us, as well as through structures like walls and buildings. We only become aware of these electromagnetic informational fields at the moment we use our mobile telephone or by switching on our radio, TV or laptop. What we receive is not inside the instrument, nor in the components, but thanks to the receiver, the information from the electromagnetic fields becomes observable to our senses and hence perception occurs in our consciousness. The voice we hear over our telephone is not inside the telephone. The concert we hear over our radio is transmitted to our radio. The images and music we hear and see on TV are transmitted to our TV set. The internet is not located inside our laptop. We can receive what is transmitted with the speed of light from a distance of some hundreds or thousands of miles. And if we switch off the TV set, the reception disappears, but the transmission continues. The information transmitted remains present within the electromagnetic fields. The connection has been interrupted, but it has not vanished and can still be received elsewhere by using another TV set (“non-locality”).

Could our brain be compared to the TV set, which receives electromagnetic waves and transforms them into image and sound, as well as to the TV camera, which transforms image and sound into electromagnetic waves? This electromagnetic radiation holds the essence of all information, but is only perceivable by our senses through suitable instruments like camera and TV set.

The informational fields of our consciousness and of our memories, both evolving during our lifetime by our experiences and by the informational input from our sense organs, are present around us,and become available to our waking consciousness only through our functioning brain (and other cells of our body) in the shape of electromagnetic fields. As soon as the function of the brain has been lost, as in clinical death or brain death, memories and consciousness do still exist, but the receptivity is lost, the connection is interrupted.

[Sean.M.Connelly]

I know there's nothing I can say to change your mind, Radical. And I doubt there is something I could say just to make you think twice about your belief system. Maybe I'll just say what I personally did, and you can do whatever you want with that information. Of course, I'm a little long winded, so maybe you won't even read this post :-P.

Looking back, I suppose the main reason why I changed was because I wasn't happy being a mechanical-atheist. I simply wasn't happy. Maybe there is something inside of us that tells us that the truth will ultimately make you feel really good :-P. But I thought I had truth, and I didn't feel really good :-P. I argued with people, and told them how stupid they were, and explained everything they experienced from my mechanical perspective. But I was not happy. I didn't enjoy life, and I found it very hard and difficult. I suppose that was the root that caused me to change.

From there, my curiosity led me to research psychic abilities. I went on forums, and heard people asking for help, because a ghost had invaded their house and caused things to fly across the room. I would think to myself, "Good lord! These people are really delusional! Don't they realize ghosts don't exist? These people need serious mental help." I suppose the desire to prove people wrong led me to researching psychic abilities quite a lot. I think I was part curious, and part just wanted to prove everyone was stupid in my head :-P.

Over time, a lingering question started to appear in my mind. I had met and seen a lot of people who believed in psychic abilities, and who could claim to do psychic feats. Sure, I could explain each individual away using coincidence, or that they were lying, or delusional. And I did :-P. But there was an underlying problem: how could there be so many delusional people? How could that be? How was it that everyone around me was stupid, and I was the only smart one? Now sure... you can say "coincidence", or "you're a nut", or "you're lying"... but after a while, those words start to lose meaning. You can only say that so many times before you start to think to yourself, "Hmmm ... maybe there is something else going on here? Because I sure am resorting to those three explanations quite a lot. These situations just seem more complicated than that."

Once that question entered my mind... I got the balls to actually TRY some exercises these supposed "nut jobs" were telling me to try. I had never tried them before, because I already "knew" that nothing would happen. But I was a bored teenager, and I had this lingering doubt, so I had to give it a shot. And when I did, I started experiencing some things they described.

Now for the kicker.

I don't think it was the actual psychic experiences that convinced me. I think what actually convinced me was that I would explain my own simple experiences with other mechanical-atheists. And they're reaction was that I was delusional! It felt like I was arguing with myself! I wanted to reach out, and say, "NO! I'm not one of those delusional nut jobs... I'm one of you! I'm on the good side! It's just I can't explain this experience completely... Just listen to me for a second! This is serious!"

When I finally saw my own personality from the outside looking in... that convinced me. When suddenly I found myself being labeled as the delusional one, and I saw how the mechanical-atheist wouldn't listen to one word that I said... that's when I realized that that was how I acted to others. And it sucked.

I didn't leave the mechanical world by choice. The mechanical-atheists pushed me out because my experiences didn't align with their beliefs. It's easy to label others as delusional nutjobs, or liars, or label an experience as just random luck. Until you personally experience it. And when you do, try explaining your experience to another like-minded mechanical-atheist :-P.

~Sean

[Brutha]

Originally Posted by Radical

In that case what about brain damaged people? Does their consciousness somehow get damaged in the so called non-physical plane, or are they just faking retardation?

Take the Mario example. Lets asume the controller is defect and sometimes when the player presses the button nothing happens. Sometimes when the player doesn't press the button, the controller acts like when it is pressed.
When Luigi observes Mario he must come to the conclusion that Mario is retarted.

Also, when we are asleep we are not conscious, and our brains don't have any perceptions. We may have dreams, but they are just hazy thoughts floating around from previous perceptions.

How do you know that your brains don't have any perceptions when you sleep? Simply because you don't remember them? I had experiences where I acted conscious and had no memory of it afterwards. One was shutting my alarm clock of in a polyphasic sleep trial. The other was a bid more serious.
I woke up in a hospital, with some machienes attached to my body. I knew that I should be operated, but the last thing I remembered was going to bed the day before the operation.
My doctor told me that 6 days had passed. When I awoke at the OP-day I have had to be fully consciouis, but I had no real sleep in those 6 days so the memorys weren't saved. In your sleep your brain does memory saving.
Sure I thought that the doctor was nuts, their were no way that 6 days were simply disappeared.
But it turned out that those six days simply were not in my memory.

So to conclude that because you can't remember being conscious while you sleep, that you actually are unconscious is difficult.

But you would argue that your brain produces the perception of the ghost. The mind could as well produce the perception of a "physical plane".

Originally Posted by Radical

The only existence we know of is this current physical existence.

There you are wrong, you have no way to know that the physical plane exists. All you have is some perceptions. And it is quite possible that those perceptions don't resemble something phyical.
You would also think that when someone sees a Ghost that Ghost doesn't exist in the "physical plane". Seeing Ghosts through taking drugs is quite easy and a phenomen that you should be able to accept.

Originally Posted by Scott

Before you continue to argue, ask yourself this: What if there were more psychics in the world than there were scientists? Would scientists then not be considered the "weird ones"?

If you count all prists and shaman into the group of psychics I would think that there are more psychics than scientist. You have to take into account that most people in this world don't live in Europe or the USA.