Consequential Proof of Astrology

[Fullcrum]

This is an experiential proof. 1st hand experience in my living room.

If you are the type who only listens to scientific studies involving 1,000 or more people, leave now. If you are the type who requires surveillance to make sure there was no cheating, leave. If you are the type whose mind cannot be changed, leave. This post is not for you.

This is an exercise in true astrology, not horoscope hogwash or sun-sign paraphernalia. For all you who wonder what goes into a chart, this is for you. For all you whose minds can be changed with proof, this is for you. For those who will take my word and not just say I'm lying, this is for you.

For the rest of you open-minded skeptics, this may open your minds:

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My step-father (let's call him Phoenix) is a very experienced astrologer. He's been doing it since 15, and he's now in his 50s, doing it professionally. I'm nowhere near as good, but I decided to test something. Coming from the frame of a true open-minded skeptic to his true abilities, I drew up the chart and aspect list for Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart in Sunfire v5.

I didn't label it as such. I just labeled it "Person". All Phoenix could have known about the chart was that it was a natal (birth) chart; the person was born in Salzburg, Austria on January 27, 1756 at 8:00 PM (Phoenix doesn't study music and couldn't have known who was born there); and this person is famous (or I wouldn't ask him to analyze this person born in the 1700s).

It was a blind reading. For any astrologers, if you want to see a chart, this link provides. This is so you can see and understand some of the aspects I'll be bringing up. The link is a detailed chart analysis; I'll be bringing up few aspects because my intended audience, the open-minded skeptic, could care less right now. Mozart -- The Astrological Saga of Wolfgang Amadeus Mozart: Genius before his Time -- by Shelley Jordan

Well, when I asked Phoenix what he thought of this mystery person's chart, the first thing he looked to was sun-sign and aspects the sun was making. The sun tends to represent core motivation. The sun was conjunct mercury and Saturn in Aquarius in the 5th house, which can represent creativity, shows "That this person was intensely creative, with a desire to structure the creativity into a form and make others see it." He then looked at Midheaven aspects, and saw a triple trine from the sun moon and saturn conjunction with the midheaven, showing "That his creative energy is tied up both in this person's career and sense of identity."

He then saw an opposition from neptune to the sun-mercury-saturn conjunction. Neptune, in the 11th in Leo, shows that this intense creativity will "often be stifled by some sort of rank, nobility, or power." A moon-pluto conjunction (separated by only 2 minutes) in the 4th in sagittarius shows that "the circumstances surrounding the death of this person will be mysterious, but probably cataclysmic or iconoclastic in nature."

In the end, before telling Phoenix who this person was, he said that this person

• Is intensely creative, probably an artist or musician, but leaning towards the process of writing and formal structure.
• The circumstances surrouding this person's death will be mysterious but iconoclastic and cataclysmic.
• This person's creative process was of a solitary nature.
• This person was prone to acting emotionally "crazy" at times.
• This person's sense of identity was tied up in their creativity and career.
• This person had a knack for structuring their creative output (saturn conjunct sun and virgo rising).
• This person's creativity, though intellectual in nature, expressed deep felt emotions rather than being an intellectual exercise in creativity.
• This person communicated quite emotionally but this often put him at odds with those in charge, nobility, or people with more power than him.
• This person was loved by the people.
• This person often tried too hard to please those around him; there was a constant seeking of identity in his seek to please others.

This was all before Phoenix had any idea who this person was. When I told him it was Mozart, he kinda smiled but didn't seem shocked. He's been doing this for a long time and isn't surprised by his own abilities.

You'll see that the conclusions Phoenix came up with may differ slightly from the website's conclusion, but that they are equally accurate and essentially the same.

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This is just ONE example of true astrology at work. A detailed analysis of a natal chart can lead to surprising insight into how a person functions.

What do yall think?

[Fullcrum]

Maybe this is the wrong forum? I saw the previous astrology thread here and wanted to relate this post to that thread.

[Erin Pavlina]

We should probably move it to Psychic and Paranormal.

[Dan.Linehan]

Anyone famous dead person would have had to have been creative to be remembered, right? Could you have him do the chart for a famous dictator who lived more recently?

[Dan.Linehan]

How about Augusto Pinochet?

[Dan.Linehan]

Also - and not saying this is what happened, but just putting it out there - you could Google a birth date and find out what famous person was born that day pretty easily.

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

This is just ONE example of true astrology at work. A detailed analysis of a natal chart can lead to surprising insight into how a person functions.

What do yall think?

I think I'm sold! How cheaply can I get a chart?

[Fullcrum]

Awesome, responses!

To answer your questions:

I was next to him while he was telling me all this stuff. He had no chance to do anything. It was like 1 in the morning or something. This shocked me more that it was so detailed so late - he's a true pro.

And no, I do not think a famous dead person would have to be creative. They could have been a world leader. Or a KKK member. Or a US president or governor. It could have been a military leader from back in the day, or a Pope. All these things interest me - my step-dad would know enough that I would pick someone of interest to me, but he couldn't have known who. My interests are too diverse for that.

To continue with who it could have been, it could have been a spiritual leader, who's main identity was wrapped around justice or compassion, like Gandhi. But it's evident from the chart that creativity was the center of Mozart's life.

The reason I wouldn't show him a recent dictator is because he'd probably recognize it. He has very good chart memory, but I know his interests do not extend into classical music and he wouldn't have seen Mozart's before. Everyone and their uncle has studied Hitler's stuff - you can find many analysis on Google.

I'm not trying to advertise for my step-dad, but if you're interested I'll ask him. My intention was to show people that astrology does work, it is quite accurate and logical and all that.

The only thing I cannot explain is how it works. I do not know, I'll admit that. All that stuff about universal energy being reflected in the planets millions of miles away doesn't make sense to me.

But I do know it works.

Hope I explained this well

[Sentient]

I used to think this stuff was bunk until recently my girlfriend had her chart done by someone I respect.

He picked out a few pretty crazy dates out of nowhere. In particular he made a comment during the session about how something was going to go down in October of 2009 for her (he mentioned Saturn's return for people who may know this stuff a bit..I don't obviously). Then he went on to say "there'd be some upheaval and you should avoid acquiring property because you will likely be going to move."

Turns out October 2009 is exactly when the lease on our current apartment is up. We'd just started formulating plans to get up and leave the city and move somewhere else in the world at that point. Coincidental, maybe. But I sort of feel like after a few hundred coincidences that you objectively have to admit have a very low probability of occurring there comes a point where you gotta admit that there is something to it (I'm probably over my coincidence limit at this point )

He had about 2 or 3 other "coincidences" like this in this session alone, though I won't share those since they're of a more personal nature. I have to admit though, I was pretty impressed.

One question I still have about Astrology is this. How similar would a chart expect two people to be who were born in the same hospital at the same time? It seems unlikely to me that you could take a large urban hospital that serves people from very diverse backgrounds and everyone who was born there would have strikingly similar inclinations and attributes. Is this something that an astrologer/astrology would expect? From someone who knows this stuff, is there something basic I'm not understanding?

[Fullcrum]

I wonder about that, too. I'll ask around .

[Erin Pavlina]

Also find out about twins born just 1 minute apart. My sister and I are so different. Can one minute make that much of a difference? Wouldn't most of our planets be in exactly the same position?

[Fullcrum]

You have an identical twin Erin?

Here's a link Twins and Astrology

Here's another perspective from a Vedic astrologer. I'm more skeptical of this, but it's here for you to read nonetheless. I've not studied Vedic astrology in great detail. Identical Twins and Astrology :: Article by Vic DiCara of 108 / Vraja Kishor

Here's another article; a general attempt to prove astrology to skeptics, using experiential evidence like I do. I'll quote the part about twins here: What Do Skeptics Say About Astrology?

Even identical twins have slightly different horoscopes, since they are never born at exactly the same time - usually several minutes, or sometimes even hours, apart. Their Ascendant will not be at the same degree, and may often be in the next or previous Sign.

I know a pair of identical twins in my home town who were born with a different Ascendant sign (also known as the Rising Sign). Although they are identical in their DNA and physical bodies, the one with Leo Rising wore her hair long and shaggy, like a lion's mane; while the one with Virgo Rising cut her hair short and conservatively. Just looking at their hair style was a clue that the long-haired twin had her Ascendant in Leo; and then to see the horoscope of the other twin with Virgo Rising was enough to guess that she was the younger one by at least a few minutes (or even up to two hours), since Virgo always rises after Leo.

I'd personally like to see a chart of my own and analyze it with my step-dad before I give a concrete answer. This kind of subject, similar to psychic powers or lucid dreaming, means little unless you use it and experience it.

[Erin Pavlina]

We're not identical, we're fraternal. She's left-handed, I'm right-handed. She has blue eyes, and I have brown. I think I got the dominant genes

[Fullcrum]

Interesting.

Besides the links, I asked my mentor about twins and he said that there are often differences when you start analyzing midpoints, which are the points that are hal-way between two planets that make an aspect. This applies especially to the midheaven, ascendent, and moon position. Planets that lie on midpoints may change on a minute to minute basis. For example, the ascendent moves one degree of longitude every four minutes. Hence differences.

He said he's analyzed twins before and those tended to account fo the major differences between them. Interestingly, none of this was mentioned in the previous links.

[Hyperchiller]

This post from Noble Realms was definitely interesting. The forum is now closed but you can still browse the archives.

It is about the different markers of one's destiny. I think astrology is just one piece of the puzzle when you are talking about this sort of stuff.

The poster is druid.
"I respect astrology, although I consider it is one marker of our destiny.
I see mainly 7 or them.

1)our physiological frame (shape of the head and torso and belly as a whole)
2)our socio-educational programming and its relations to heredity (family, friends, education, large family gene pool and vibratory spiritual frequency, although one must not thikn of physical waves or rarefid matter here, it is an etheric spiritual level imprinted by astral and ego)
3)our temperament (phlegmatic, choleric, sanguine, melancholic)
4)our character (moon, mercury, venus, sun, mars, jupiter, saturn)
5)our sex (our etheric body is of the opposite sex)
6)fallen elementals that are too attached to us (we make elementals fall when we are not looking at the world properly, that is when we are not looking at the world as being spiritual and soulful. Developing and using technology put elementals on a downward falling path)
7)the geographic double (the quality of telluric emanations coming out of the earth, depending on where we live (is the an underground base near where you live? mountains? volcanoes? telluric fault lines and/or instabilities? In America, perticularly in the South-West of the USA, geomagnetic sorces are highly coherent with the quality of ahrimanic forces).

Beside astrology, we must consider at leaast all of these factors that are highly influencial, if not determining destiny, our temporal vehicle made up by our own karma and outer environmental conditions (pollution, poisoning of the water, etc.)."

[Fullcrum]

I don't know about a lot of that other stuff. I can't comment on how much of that other stuff is pseudo-science (in my estimate it probably is), but I know from experience that astrology is not.

Though I'm open to being proved wrong, of course. I wouldn't know how to do it.

[dougyitbos]

Hi Fullcrum.
Interesting stuff - and I don't want to poo-poo your work but...

I never studied music (a least not enough to know anything about the great composers) and I think I could have come up with most of that.

Most people that are somewhat well read at least know that Mozart was born "a long time a go" in Germany/Austria/whatever.
I would imagine that would apply to your step father as he's 50 and if he's smart enough to study astrology - it's probably reasonable to assume he knows at least that much of Mozart from his 50 years.

Your Criteria:
- Famous.
- Austria
- 1700s

I think even I would have come up with:
- Probably mozart (or somebody like him.)
- We'd only remember him if he were a great artist or science geek.
(given the first item probably artist)
- Probably a him.
- Death of a great 1700s person would be a big part of the story.
(maybe died t0o young or in the middle of something - some great work left undone etc)


I'm not saying your results are invalid... just that you'd have better proof if you picked a more recent, less known name. (but someone you known enough that you could get good validation for)

Still... very interesting.

Try this for Christa McAuliffe and report back - I'd love to see the results. Just make sure you are as careful as the last time - don't let him goolge anything.

[danman85]

I do believe Mozart may be somewhat of an easy guess for a chart reading based off of the birth facts and some aspects, but we don't know what other people know. You can't say that all 50 year old people know who Mozart is (a relative of mine in her 50's thought I wanted to be a rapper when I told her I was studying music), so try not to rely on the fact that YOU know who Mozart is.

I have seen this done before. A tv reporter locked herself away and took a crash course in astrology for a week, and was assigned to guess a living celebrity from his chart, and she did it correctly, with lots of astrological reasoning. I am looking for the video right now, will post when I find it.

[dougyitbos]

I'm not relying on the fact that I know who motzart is.
Just that most would.

And if I (a guy who never studied music) could get it - most well read people who've been around PROBABLY could. Thus the data would have been more compeling with a different target.

And I'm not sure what your aunt's take on your musical aspirations are supposed to point out - but I'd guess that she's heard of the name Mozart.
I could be wrong of course... but I stand by my take that a less obvious target would provide more compelling evidence.

And for the record - I'm not implying that astrology is fake.
My point is just that if your goal is to do an experiment I think there would be value in choosing some other target.

[Fullcrum]

You're right.

This was a spur of the moment thing.

I don't know when I'd get a chance to reproduce this. He does tons of charts for various clients and is really busy. But many people often call back months or years later to say how accurate he was, or rather, his interpretation of the chart was.

[danman85]

I haven't found the video yet, spent a while searching.

I believe astrology works. I also believe that for other people its a total farce. It's totally dependent on your viewpoints, and maybe a little bit of law of attraction. Tests like these have been performed for centuries, some prove the existence of astrology as true, and some as false. I think we all just have to make our own decisions about it. But as far as experimenting goes, there should be much more of a stable experiment for us to embark upon.

[Hyperchiller]

I got my natal chart done from astro.com a while back and I read through it and it definitely gave me insights. I read it again a while later and got more out of it. I think you just have to be open to what's in the natal chart and see if it reflects an aspect of yourself.

If you're talking about destiny, I think astrology is only one piece of the puzzle. The major factor of course is your own freewill. You can definitely develop into someone that is not representative of what your natal chart tells you.

[tin]

My following comment may seem sarcastic or derisive to some, however that is not my intent. Just want to get some more input on 'idea of Astrology'.

I just want to know what is birth time ? If someone claims a 'particular moment' as birth time, Why & HOW is 'that particular moment' claimed as Birth time?

A person's Charecteristics, mood swings, timelines, career, etc etc are said to be deciphered from NATAL Chart which inturn rests upon BIRTH TIME

Birth time is Fulcrum on which the whole Astrology rests upon! the natal chart is formulated on Birth time.
quote from sujai blog(one of the blogs I read):

"
What is birth according to these stars and planets, the moment of conception or the moment of seeing the outside world, or is it when the tether at the baby’s navel is cut off from the mother? Is the boundary of such termination just the skin of human or is it something more (like heart, brain or soul)? So, are we to assume that these planets are aware of each individual who is born on earth? If so, are they aware of each living species on the planet? There would be many billions of living beings on the planet, would they consider the fate of each of those living organism? Or these planets are especially interested in humans only? What about our cousins the chimps, gorillas and orangutans?
"
If interested visit my post... rumination on the idea of Astrology, Fate etc:
Astrology, FATE, Mr. GOD & its derivatives

[Brutha]

Astrology is based on how certain famous lived their lives. Taking the same people that are used to calibrate astrology is a bad idea when you want to test it.

* Is intensely creative, probably an artist or musician, but leaning towards the process of writing and formal structure.

Mozart was no writer.

# This person had a knack for structuring their creative output (saturn conjunct sun and virgo rising).

You can say that about anyone.

# This person's creativity, though intellectual in nature, expressed deep felt emotions rather than being an intellectual exercise in creativity.

Again, that statement contains no information.

#
# This person often tried too hard to please those around him; there was a constant seeking of identity in his seek to please others.

Classic coldreading line.

# This person was loved by the people.

Mozart wasn't loved as much back in his day as he is now.
In addition nearly every famous person was loved by some people.
Most of those statement contain no information.

To test an astrology you have to take life story of people and the brith dates of them. Afterwards you give a astrologist the task to match the stories to the birth dates.
That the way to know whether the patterns you see are due to baised perception or due to true information that gets provided by astrology.

[1onewonjuan]

* Is intensely creative, probably an artist or musician, but leaning towards the process of writing and formal structure.
* The circumstances surrouding this person's death will be mysterious but iconoclastic and cataclysmic.
* This person's creative process was of a solitary nature.
* This person was prone to acting emotionally "crazy" at times.
* This person's sense of identity was tied up in their creativity and career.
* This person had a knack for structuring their creative output (saturn conjunct sun and virgo rising).
* This person's creativity, though intellectual in nature, expressed deep felt emotions rather than being an intellectual exercise in creativity.
* This person communicated quite emotionally but this often put him at odds with those in charge, nobility, or people with more power than him.
* This person was loved by the people.
* This person often tried too hard to please those around him; there was a constant seeking of identity in his seek to please others.


i think that describes someone i know.

[danman85]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Mozart was no writer.

Mozart was indeed a writer. Writing music is just as much communicative as is writing words.

Noone knows what happened to Mozart surrounding his death. It is speculated that his body was thrown in a trench with other peasants who could not affort a burial.

Composition is a very solitary art (I can say this, I am a composer). It takes me at least 4-6 hours DAILY and ALONE for me to do what I do, and I am no Mozart.

As far as structuring creative output, Mozart wrote 40 COMPLETE SYMPHONIES!!! Writing ONE takes YEARS for many composers, they are not easy, they are long, and require a lot of thought and organization. Mozart also wrote THOUSANDS of other pieces of music, for many different ensembles. He put together entire church services (which were based LARGELY around the music presented), rehearsed and directed it every week....WITH DIFFERENT NEW MUSIC. Mozart's output is ridiculous, he could write very good music, VERY QUICKLY. Now if that doesn't take structuring of creative ability, I don't know what does.

Mozart was VERY emotionally crazy, not all the time, but he was known for random outbursts of extreme anger in some of the courts in which he was employed.

Mozart's music was very refined and structured, and a lot of music theory touches on rules derived from Mozart's writing (As well as Bach, Beethoven, and a lot of other legendary composers). The amazing thing about Mozart's writing was that since it was so structured and formulated, audiences were surprised to hear such emotionally substantial content as well. It's still amazing to this day how Mozart made such structured music so emotional.


....So some of these things predicted from Mozart's natal chart DEFINITELY applies to his life. I have studied Mozart for years, and there are some things that may be generalities, but a lot of the prediction from his natal chart posted in this forum is true, guys....come on, how many of you have actually sat through entire classes of Mozart and his life in much detail????? And how many of you who haven't are negating ideas posted about the predictions from his chart??

(I'm also a firm believer in and practice astrology, as well)

[Fullcrum]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Quote:
* Is intensely creative, probably an artist or musician, but leaning towards the process of writing and formal structure.
Mozart was no writer.
Actually, he was. His creative output was, in essence, a written form. I wouldn't say that about a painter. I also wouldn't say that about someone who primarily plays instruments. But he wrote music - structured and creative with written form.
Quote:
# This person had a knack for structuring their creative output (saturn conjunct sun and virgo rising).
You can say that about anyone.
No, you can't, actually. There are many people who are creative but are, in the classic sense of the word, crazy. They may flit from one thing to the next without actually making something of lasting value. That's how many creative works never see the light of day. Mozart was different. There are other people who are not very creative at all. They may excel, for example, at stabilizing or administrating things around them. Mozart sucked at administrating. Some people may be very materially invested in this world and have the ability to make money, or at least they care a lot about money and stuff. Mozart cared more about his music. The key question here is "Where is the energy going?" Is it going towards administrating, giving humanitarian aid, teaching, being a charismatic leader? No. It's going towards creative output. And that's why this is not a simple cold-read but more accurate than that.
Quote:
# This person's creativity, though intellectual in nature, expressed deep felt emotions rather than being an intellectual exercise in creativity.
Again, that statement contains no information.
There are musicians who made music into an intellectual exercise in creativity. Bach comes to mind - he made Contrapuntus and wrote two fugues for every key, major and minor. His works are of a more intellectual nature than Mozarts - they are more complex musically and structurally. But Mozart definitely showed more emotions in much of his work. Bach showed some emotions, and mozart of course structured his work, but the emphasis is different.
Quote:
#
# This person often tried too hard to please those around him; there was a constant seeking of identity in his seek to please others.
Classic coldreading line.
Haha. No. If only. Bach was not a people pleaser. Neither was Beethoven, really. Many artists and musicians couldn't give a damn about pleasing the people around them. Mozart was an emotional wreck later in his life, and this was partly due to his people pleasing nature. Only the other people, the aristocracy, wouldn't listen to him or his antics. This is not a cold-reading tactic and it is quite plausible that someone is not a people pleaser. I'm no people-pleaser, and it shows in my demeanor and how I act.
Quote:
# This person was loved by the people.
Mozart wasn't loved as much back in his day as he is now.
In addition nearly every famous person was loved by some people.
If I were to cite someone not loved by the people of his day, Van Gogh would come to mind. Mozart was actually loved and appreciated by most of the common people, especially mid-way into his career. Mozarts' own emotional instability distanced him, however, from the people who mattered to his livelihood, as demonstrated by the position of Neptune compared to the sun and the house placement of each. Seriously, it's Neptune. That's how we could tell he'd be at odds with the leadership of his time.
Most of those statement contain no information.
I'd reconsider that.

[danman85]

oh wow where did that come from

[Fullcrum]

Where did what come from? Haha. This quoting-20-parts-of-a-post thing is tough sometimes .

[ar81]

Originally Posted by Fullcrum

In the end, before telling Phoenix who this person was, he said that this person

• Is intensely creative, probably an artist or musician, but leaning towards the process of writing and formal structure.
• The circumstances surrouding this person's death will be mysterious but iconoclastic and cataclysmic.
• This person's creative process was of a solitary nature.
• This person was prone to acting emotionally "crazy" at times.
• This person's sense of identity was tied up in their creativity and career.
• This person had a knack for structuring their creative output (saturn conjunct sun and virgo rising).
• This person's creativity, though intellectual in nature, expressed deep felt emotions rather than being an intellectual exercise in creativity.
• This person communicated quite emotionally but this often put him at odds with those in charge, nobility, or people with more power than him.
• This person was loved by the people.
• This person often tried too hard to please those around him; there was a constant seeking of identity in his seek to please others.

According to a study that was reported by Reuters, artists and psychiatric patients show lack of inhibition to external stimulation.
Same regions of the brain turn on.
So describing an artistic and crazy personality is too general.