Believers: Explain to me this...

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Hi Khristine,

I do know exactly what you're talking about as I've had similar experiences.

Back in high school when my paranormal abilities were at their most heightened state I ended up in a very long battle with a demon and there were a few times when I experienced what you're talking about, where something was strangling me in my bed and I knew I would die in real life if I didn't get free.

I didn't know it then, but I was vibrating in a fear state so I was attracting all of these negative entities and experiences to me. If I were you, I would work on raising your vibration to a state where these entities cannot reach you. YOu've got to close the door on them, so to speak.

Cleanse your chakras, call upon the archangel Michael, and ask your guides to assist you whenever you are feeling fear.

Now I know you said you are not afraid... neither was I. I was determined to take that demon down, and eventually I did (took about 4 months though). But the truth is that I was resonating with a fear energy and attracting them to me.

It's okay to fight demons, but it can be exhausting and it can really drain your energy. So be careful out there. You might want to ask your guides why the demons are attacking you. Could be insightful.

I'm sorry but I think these comments are delusional?

Demons, devils, evil spirits, penetrate religious activity, but where do they come from?

Traditional belief systems. Belief systems pre-industrial revolution where their primary goal was to dominate the peasants that bought into their beliefs.

Read Machiavelli. He says a virtuous Prince will rule with the face of Christ on his side, but betray him to serve himself. This is the capitalist model.

I just cannot believe an adult woman who is intelligent and well read can really suspend disbelief about these issues IN A LITERAL SENSE! I can understand interpreting a dream as a metaphor, I just had a dream that was very literal: I left a college party because I thought they would get in trouble from smoking marijuana with little children around. I left the room and outside a security guard was there doing nothing. I walked back to my room where, outside of the complex, a bunch of drunk kids were lying around the door. They all laughed at me as I waded through the crowd, but I laughed (at them) as it happened, feeling no emotional attachment to these people I did not value. I got to the door, realizing I left my backpack at the beginning of the crowd, and instead of wading through the crowd again, I asked them to bring me my backpack which they did. I assume that since I wasn't outcome oriented, I gained their respect.

That's about as literal as they get (strange as I've been having many of these recently) and it was very meaningful. I went to bed last night asking the question, "Why am I afraid of doing the things I tell myself I want to do?"

I guess I answered the question with a subconscious affirmation.

Anyway, Erin I don't mean to be disrespectful but I honestly want to know how you reconcile the context of your beliefs with the beliefs themselves. Do you believe that these beliefs arose from an external (supernatural) entity?

I think this makes sense but I have never heard of a paranormal activity that isn't directly related to traditional beliefs in paranormal activity (again a mechanism of dominance within patriarchal societies). Demons, dragons, ghosts, Loc Ness. They are all things we've heard of and then experience, not experience and then tell others about.

I thought, when I was three, that I would be reincarnated as a butterfly, after I died. Did I have a pure belief in reincarnation? No, I adapted the metaphoric change of a caterpillar into a butterfly into a religious experience.

Again, I don't mean to be immature or disrespectful but I have a hard time grasping how highly educated people can buy into this stuff.

Here's how I reconcile these beliefs in general. I accept a partial philosophical belief in idealism--that the ideas of an entity, if believed strongly enough, can penetrate reality through your mind. I think we all ascribe to these beliefs if we believe in intention manifestation.

I've had these things happen. I've been so paranoid about balding that it literally saturated my reality and thinking. It has been an emotional battle to champion these irrational beliefs.

So why do some people subject themselves to Hamlet-isms? They improve your life, via your belief system. You, Erin, are clearly a HARD idealist (ENFP, I think). These beliefs/sights/delusions make you happy.

But I don't like it when people say that these things come from someplace other than here, from some history other than ours. I find this thinking to be ignorant in a very literal sense (ignoring).

I'm very interested in what you all have to say.

[shesaboutspirit]

No doubt Erin will have lots to say here...

I just wanted to chime in for a second though. This post reads pretty strong my friend...and does come across, in my opinion as a strong put down. You absolutely have the right to your own experience and judgment. If you've not had an experience for yourself, how could you know or believe? I would just encourage you to keep an open mind...

Also, my experience has been that whatever I judge...is that next lesson coming around the corner.

You might want to tend those bridges carefully

Blessings to you on this journey of opening and discovery.

Pam

[Khristine]

Very interesting point of view. And I respect you for what you believe in your life (reality).

The beauty of each of us as an individual is that we do ALL have the right to "create" our own realities - we are creators in a sense. This does not make anyone any more or less intelligent than the next person.

You are also a creator in your reality, you "choose" what you do and do not want in your own reality. It's your decision to believe what you wish to.

Personally I do not believe everything that everyone tells me - it's my choice as to what I wish to believe. I do my best to love, honor and respect others who do not believe the same as me.

In any case, we will all know the truth in the end.

[Erin Pavlina]

I understand why if you've never had a paranormal experience as intense as the ones I've experienced that your ability to believe they are real would have to be based on faith alone.

The simple answer is that if something demonic is attacking you, you don't really have time to question whether it is possible, you have to react to it. You figure out afterwards what the heck it was.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by my beliefs. I would say it's my experience that determines what I believe, not the other way around.

Like I mentioned in my Chakras blog entry, until I was well into my 30's I thought the whole chakra thing was a bunch of new age nothing. But I was willing to check it out for myself, and lo and behold, there really was something to them.

My main philosophy in life is that anything is possible. When we decide what is we close our mind to the possibilities of what may be.

And when you're staring down the business end of a demon, you don't really have time to phone a theology professor.

[thef0x]

I was strong minded in my language, as I am as an individual, and I apologize for the harshness that was expressed.

I feel that, if we realize that these realities we create are based on a system of belief often unquestioned and instilled within us (usually fairly young), we do not have the ability to discern what is a real paranormal event from an external source, other than ourselves, and those events that we create for ourselves, internally.

I believe, regardless of what happens to you in your experience, all experiences are generated internally. This is a Jungian understanding of psychology.

Therefore, no God or spirit or ghost or boogie-man can get a hold of me because they come from within me. They might be as real as they can be, I have personally experienced a VAST array of INTENSE emotional and psychological hallucinations, but I realize they were all generated within my reality, my paradigm of thinking, and the context of my past.

Ultimately I believe we can never find God, even if we have insane experiences, because God cannot be detached from an internal reality I have. (Since I already have a notion of God).

Borges, the famous Argentinean writer, writes about seeing a unicorn. We all have this idea of what a unicorn is, but what happens if we see one in front of us? How can we tell what it is if we haven't seen it before? I can say its a lot like a horse and the bike my little sister got when she was six, but how can I classify it without first having an idea of what it is?

The same applies to God. How can we call a strange event an experience from God when we've never had that experience before? We can't.

And if we do call it something, isn't it derivative of my social context, which has taught me that 1) there is a God/gods and 2) God(s) have this characteristic.

There seems to be the biggest paradox within spirituality, in my opinion.

I think Kierkegaard answers these questions in the most rational way any theologian has before, but I still cannot suspend disbelief when I rationally know that 1) almost all cultures have religion and 2) they all believe in religion in the absolute. Even though I'm certain of my own beliefs (which are actually a belief in the phenomenological world, I'm a post-modern Aristotelian) I cannot know they are the truth because all cultures, throughout time, have believed with certainty that they had the right answer (my belief system actually does acknowledge these beliefs).

All our experiences are a product of our beliefs, and who controls your beliefs?

Don't begin to tell me your parents had nothing to do with them. If you rebel against your parents, what are you doing? You're reacting to their systems of beliefs. When you have an experience you’ve never had before, how do you describe it? You relate it to other systems of beliefs (unicorn example).

Regardless of who we think we are, we have not chosen the totality of our lives (we must recognize others – “Hell is other people” –Sartre). I cannot fly. I cannot make you all disappear. We are limited.

It’s our job to decide what to do in these limitations. Personally I find that ignoring these ideas is choosing a delusion because it’s safer. Avoiding the truth because it serves you. Steve talks about this and he says that once you overcome these misconceptions, you reach a certain clarity.

Realizing these beliefs when I was 13 has dramatically impacted my life.

I ask all of you to not brush these ideas off but really consider them and if they have any merit. Maybe you will learn something.

(I can describe my hallucination experience later, if anyone would like).

[Steve Pavlina]

When I started having my first astral experiences, I encountered mostly negative, demon-like entities. I've never seen anything like that in the physical world, but the astral realms are loaded with them. If I'd never experienced it for myself, it would be hard for me to believe experiences such as Erin describes.

Even today when I have an astral experience, I still encounter negative entities more often than not. I'm not very good at controlling my astral experiences -- usually I get attacked right away, and I do whatever I can to return to my physical body. Most of my astral experiences don't last more than a couple minutes. Erin's level of skill with AP is way beyond mine.

I wish I could say AP was as fun as lucid dreaming, but my AP experiences have been mostly negative. Even so, AP still fascinates me.

If you don't believe there are demon-like creatures in the astral realms, consider yourself lucky for never having met one. It's not really something I'd encourage people to try.

[Radical]

Steve, are you absolutely 100% sure in your beliefs that OBE's and astral projection exists, and are not just delusions?

Because for someone who respects science and has never had any kind of paranormal experience, it all sounds abit ridiculous.

[Antarananda]

In classical Tantra, there are descriptions of an elaborate hierarchy of all sorts of spirits, and other disembodied entities. There are even certain rituals which allow you to use the more benign ones as your "slave", however those practices are fraught with danger, and you must know what you're doing. There are even female spirits who are extremely enchanting, and lure you with sex which allegedly exceeds all known human concepts of what pleasure can be; however, they suck from you your very life force in the process.

I know this sounds like someone's wild hallucination, but I assure you, it is not. Read the book by Robert Svoboda, Aghora: At the Left Hand of God for a fascinating account of a young American who studied with a Master in India who was skilled in handling etheric realm entities.

[Erin Pavlina]

TheFox... I considered that the events I was experiencing (and continue to experience) were delusions or hallucinations or just internal experiences. But how do you account for 3 people in separate locations, with no prior discussion having the exact same dream on the same night and describing events the exact same way, including the fact that we all saw each other doing the various things each of us saw ourselves doing in our own dream (did that make sense?)

I grew up with no religious background at all. Culturally Jewish, I never attended Temple. I had no paranormal beliefs at age 4, yet I was having paranormal experiences at age 4 and long into my teen years.

I don't know where the experiences come from. I only know I have had them. And these experiences lead to conclusions or at least behaviors (sometimes protective behaviors). I mean, really, if a demon walked up to you and was about to blow fire in your face would you just say, "hey, dude, you don't exist. I don't believe in you." If so, I admire your moxy.

[shesaboutspirit]

Thank you theFOx for acknowledging the harsh tone of your note. I feel like Erin, Steve and all of us are very vulnerable here because we share deeply. A bit of additional tenderness from each of us creates this safe space. I for one am deeply grateful for this community and am working on being less timid with my own sharing. It does scare me though...to put myself out here.

Anyhow, my point is that I wanted to invite you to share about those hallucination experiences you mentioned in your note, if you feel like it.

blessings,
Pam

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

TheFox... I considered that the events I was experiencing (and continue to experience) were delusions or hallucinations or just internal experiences. But how do you account for 3 people in separate locations, with no prior discussion having the exact same dream on the same night and describing events the exact same way, including the fact that we all saw each other doing the various things each of us saw ourselves doing in our own dream (did that make sense?)

I grew up with no religious background at all. Culturally Jewish, I never attended Temple. I had no paranormal beliefs at age 4, yet I was having paranormal experiences at age 4 and long into my teen years.

I don't know where the experiences come from. I only know I have had them. And these experiences lead to conclusions or at least behaviors (sometimes protective behaviors). I mean, really, if a demon walked up to you and was about to blow fire in your face would you just say, "hey, dude, you don't exist. I don't believe in you." If so, I admire your moxy.

I've had some extremely scary experiences (convinced I was dying, society had caught me in its internal struggle, that I would never escape that nightmare). I know how terrible these things can be, how irrational and real and scary. They've taught me a lot and once I calmed down enough to accept the reality I was in, my ego expanded to others (or my projection of their otherhood) and I felt the most euphoric calm I've ever experienced.

But I knew what I was getting into (even though, once it happened, I didn't realize I did). And I knew that these things, once I calmed down, were self-induced.

Those things that happened to me did not exist in any absolute state, but rather in the different subjective phsio-chemical state I was in.

If you believe the things you experience in dreams are real in another universe, I think you'd have a hard time functioning in the real world. Idealism can be practical, I know (a lot of personal development utilizes this) but there are limits and we must be pragmatic at some point--Hamlet's downfall.

As for the first experience you described, most people would agree that there's no way to explain that.

I do have further questions to ask because I feel that your explanation wasn't very thorough.

How were these people found?
Did these people know each other?
Were these people subjected to the same language before they experienced this experience?

I think its possible that these people could've all heard the same talk, known that 2 other people were doing the same thing, and then, because of the same information they were given, had similar experiences that were induced by the situation and specific language they had been predisposed to.

This is totally feasible. I'm not trying to be arrogant or argumentative, but really. I've seen this thing done before. Language is a fantastic manipulator.


Derren Brown from the UK's channel 5 news has a show that totally dispels all these "freaky" occurrences.

Derren Brown

He convinced a group of psychics that he was psychic. Convinced atheists to become religious. Can guess your social security number.

All manipulated.

Even things like QiGong.

I think these occurrences are complex but explainable. And hey, maybe these things do happen, but, importantly, they happen through some means internal to human beings.

I've studied hypnosis and NLP in my freetime (explains a lot of things, really does) and I know they have a phenomenological basis. Maybe these things do too.

But I don't like people claiming they have super powers and god-sight. People do so and use them to justify some truly horrendous things. If they enrich your life, great. But if people use them to deceive others... this leads to social ignorance.

I like this discussion and want to continue it. Steve, as a rationalist, how do you reconcile your logical beliefs with these external spiritual beliefs.


Quickly, my belief system.

There is an absolute reality that we as humans can never know beyond the subjective relationship of my human perception that can understand objects via my biological perception. (An apple exists, it is red to me, it might not be red in itself). Therefore, good, evil, love, happiness, and all other emotions do not exist in any form in themselves but only related to something. (Cats are evil in the eyes of a mouse). Culture and our parents greatly influence our thinking.

My morality is fairly self-centered and egotistical. I do believe that serving others is beneficial, but specifically to ME and not some superego, collective way. I have no obligation to do anything, but what I value (what makes me happy and not depressed) is excellence, intelligence, health, and in-depth, layered conversation, usually with one or two people.

I'm very interested in pursuing financial success because I believe that rationally it will lead me to be able to influence more people with my open-minded, vertical and horizontal system of questioning. I believe this type of thinking makes better humans. But ultimately I recognize it is not for many people, as most people are actually happy doing the least they could, buying a big car, and then praying for the after life (sometimes these people really appall me). I believe I die when I die, I become decomposed and nothingness (which, logically, no one could ever comprehend--nothingness does not exist, how can we describe it). Therefore I seek excellence in the pursuits that make me happy.

I am Socrates.

I am 19.

[ScottS]

Erin: have you tried astral projecting under controlled settings, like for example Steve writing a random letter on a piece of paper and reading it in the astral plane and confirming they match? If so, could you describe the experiment and the results.

Steve: out of curiosity, have you (or could you try, if you haven't) tried to get objects that are colored differently according to Erin but you can't tell them apart because you're colorblind to those colors and see what they look like in the astral plane? I don't know what a printout of the electromagnetic spectrum looks like to you, but that might be something interesting to look at to see if there is any visual difference (and confirm that they're in the proper ROYGBIV order).

[thef0x]

I don't mean to psycho-analyze you guys but, Steve, is it possible that the reason you experienced those demons because your wife had instilled the image of such creatures in your mind? Did you not experience these things in your mind? Was your mind not a part of this experience?

And Erin, is it possible that the reason you had those experiences so young was that you watched a TV show on witches or ghosts or psychics? Listened to a conversation that had to do with any of that? Maybe you didn't recognize these events but they might've had an influence.

I remember being young and impressionable. My mother instilled the idea in me that smart people read books (a common idea). I'm a rationalist and have valued intelligence/smarts for my whole life, so naturally I pursued these activities.

Maybe a good friend of yours instilled these ideas and you are naturally prone (via temperament) to pursue and possible actualize these ideas.


Also, have any of you read the book "Please Understand Me II"?

I think the differences between our systems of thought arise from our temperaments.

You need not respond to these questions directly but please hear them.

[Steve Pavlina]

@Radical: I've experienced AP firsthand, but to my knowledge you and I have never met except in a purely virtual sense. So if AP is a delusion, I'd be compelled to classify you as a delusion as well, since I have more direct experience of AP than of you. All I have from either of you is the info that comes through my senses.

How would you go about proving to my satisfaction that you actually exist? And how would that be different from my AP experiences?

To me the astral world is just as real as -- and no less valid than -- the physical universe. If one is a delusion, I'm inclined to classify the other as such too. My personal opinion is that all these different worlds are just projections of thought, so technically they're all delusions. People in the physical world have their opinions about the astral world, and astral entities have their opinions about the physical world. I've never met a being on either side who had all the answers. Astral entities have a different perspective on the universe than we do, but they certainly aren't omniscient.

Amusingly there are astral entities who don't believe the physical universe really exists, since they've never been here. So you may find it comforting to know there are beings in this universe who don't believe in you either.

It's perfectly OK not to believe in the existence of astral worlds -- to be honest I wouldn't encourage you change your beliefs in this area, at least not unless you know an experienced AP'er who can coach you. It's not the sort of thing you're likely to believe until you go there personally, and it won't hurt you not to believe in it. Rest assured you'll have plenty of time to explore the astral realms once you no longer have a physical body to worry about, so there's certainly no rush.

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by thef0x

I don't mean to psycho-analyze you guys but, Steve, is it possible that the reason you experienced those demons because your wife had instilled the image of such creatures in your mind? Did you not experience these things in your mind? Was your mind not a part of this experience?

In fact you are correct. I do believe I'm experiencing AP in my mind/consciousness and that it's probably just a projection of thought. Of course, this is how I interpret my physical universe experiences too.

I know it's more common to believe the physical universe is real and solid and the astral universe is a delusion. But I see no logical reason to make that distinction -- I've seen no evidence that this is so. It seems silly to draw the line there just because I appear to spend more time in the physical universe. Perhaps in the astral world I'm a very late sleeper.

I figure that if one universe may be a delusion, I must remain open to the possibility that the other is as well. I don't see how I could possibly conclude that one universe is real and solid but not the other.

My astral body is no more or less real to me than my physical body. They're just different forms. I don't have a strong preference between the two, although I do wish I was more competent with my astral body. Giving the command, "Float right, dammit!" hasn't been all that effective for me, but I'm gradually improving with practice.

[Radical]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

Rest assured you'll have plenty of time to explore the astral realms once you no longer have a physical body to worry about, so there's certainly no rush.

So your theory on what happens after death, is that our spirit/consciousness will travel to the astral plane?

Perhaps you could write about this in your blog, explaining what happens to us after death. What happens to our memories? Do we still remember everything that happened to us in the physical world? Can we reincarnate, meet up with dead friends, or even become ghosts?

Also, if our consciousness has always existed, why can't we remember anything in existence before we were born?

Can you explain any of this scientifically, using relevant scientific studies? Or at least relate your theories to some kind of logic?

I would like to read about your thoughts on this.

[Radical]

Also, what is life like in the astral plane? Do people have jobs? Do they sleep? Do they eat? Do they have relationships etc?

[Niki]

to theFOx
Demons, devils, evil spirits. All words as descriptions.
Where do they come from? No Proof? If you dont believe it because you dont know where they come from
ask yourself, where do we ,The earth, the universe.... come from?
Still no proof ...

Do you believe in god? Why not or why do you, if you dont , who is god to you?
Why are you allive, what do you want to do ?

Do you believe in reincarnation? Do you believe in the concept "we are all one"?

What do you believe?
Do you know what you believe?
Do you know why you believe it?
If you dont believe it, then what do you believe?

I can write questions for hours and hours.
without any single answer, that is equal for everybody.

more important is we get an answer for a question when the time is right.

And for many of them the time isnt right.

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by Niki

to theFOx
Demons, devils, evil spirits. All words as descriptions.
Where do they come from? No Proof? If you dont believe it because you dont know where they come from
ask yourself, where do we ,The earth, the universe.... come from?
Still no proof ...

Do you believe in god? Why not or why do you, if you dont , who is god to you?
Why are you allive, what do you want to do ?

Do you believe in reincarnation? Do you believe in the concept "we are all one"?

What do you believe?
Do you know what you believe?
Do you know why you believe it?
If you dont believe it, then what do you believe?

I can write questions for hours and hours.
without any single answer, that is equal for everybody.

more important is we get an answer for a question when the time is right.

And for many of them the time isnt right.

There is no reason for me to believe there is some guy (weird, he is always described as human like...I wonder why) who created me.

Here's what I believe.

There are an infinite number of monkeys typing randomly on typewriters, typing for eternity. Given enough time, one of them creates Hemingway's "Old Man and the Sea" (personal favorite).

We are the same anomaly.

I don't believe we can separate unity and plurality in themselves.

I don't believe we can know anything in-itself.

I answered many of your questions earlier. I'm atheist (without God). I do not believe in the soul. I do not believe in the self. I do not believe in reincarnation. I do not believe in existence after death.

I believe my mind generates my experience, which has a subjective relationship to an external world. I can find truth within my subjective reality.

I think your last two sentences are totally random, unexplained, and a cop-out from having an opinion.