Believers: Explain to me this...

[Hilary]

LOL!

(AFAIK my reality is short on demons. But I'm not really signed up to the subjective reality doctrine.)

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

But how do you account for 3 people in separate locations, with no prior discussion having the exact same dream on the same night and describing events the exact same way, including the fact that we all saw each other doing the various things each of us saw ourselves doing in our own dream...?

The simplest explanation is a common source of information. However, that needn't be a supernatural or paranormal source. How can any source affect a dream? Well, it probably can't with certainty. When it fails, however, you would be unaware of that, as you would simply know that you had a dream which was different from someone else's dream, or that you didn't recollect any dream at all, and neither of those circumstances would be remarkable in any way.

Bear in mind that it is known that people can sometimes incorporate into their dream something that is said within their earshot while they are sleeping. The senses are not completely shut down during sleep.

The problem with guessing what the common source was, and how it operated, is that you were asleep at the time, so you don't know what was happening, only what you recall having dreamt. You don't even know how accurate your recall was, nor exactly when the dream occurred and whether you have recalled all of it or just some of it. People tend to assume that if a dream seems recent it is recent, but there's no way to tell.

I would like to ask you why you noted the fine details of the dream at the time, and how you discovered about the other people's dreams. Were they people you knew? Why did they make detailed notes about their dreams? If detailed written notes were made, are they still available? If they weren't made, how did you know your dreams matched accurately?

[Erin Pavlina]

skipjack, it's a longer story than I want to type up right now but the basics were:

Two of my friends and I were heavily involved in the paranormal, supernatural, occult, whatever you want to call it. Every single day we shared our dreams with each other because we discovered by accident that we were having similar dreams. So we started keeping track.

So in this particular dream, I found myself in a boat crossing over a small river. I got to the other side and my male friend was waiting for me there. The next day he reports that in his dream he was standing on the bank of a river and I sailed in by boat and got off the boat. We both dreamed what happened after that from our own perspectives. We both got separated in the dream. aT the end of the dream, I was hiding under a stone staircase in a castle cuz some bad stuff was after me. In the dream I heard footsteps coming down the steps. In his dream, he recalled walkign down some stone steps and finding me hiding underneath them.

Things like that happened to all three of us many times. But it was during a particular paranormal experience that I've mentioned in the past but am not going to go into detail on so I don't like to keep bringing it up.

[skipjack]

The particular dream descriptions you have given relate to you and one of two friends with whom you daily discussed your dreams. Previously, you referred to "3 people . . . with no prior discussion". You related the common aspects of the dreams, namely two meetings in matching circumstances, but the rest of the dreams differed. Previously, you referred to "having the exact same dream". Hence, your account has changed substantially.

Given that you and your friends were "heavily involved in the paranormal" and had daily discussions, I don't find it very surprising that you had dreams that were often similar and sometimes seemed to be the same overall story experienced from different viewpoints. I note that many of the details of the story, such as a boat trip, a castle, the need to hide, and some kind of on-going adventure, are elements typical of short stories, especially those written for children. In the circumstances, what you have described is interesting (especially to a dreams researcher), but adequately explainable as due to your common interests, regular discussions and (possibly) shared knowledge of popular children's fiction.

Since you don't wish to give a full acount, my conclusion has to be that dreams often involve concepts that relate in some way to the dreamer's previous thoughts and experiences, but you have presented nothing that suggests the supernatural "really exists".

This has been a good illustration of how something which initially seems amazing can become relatively mundane in appearance once more of the circumstances are uncovered.

[Erin Pavlina]

Like I said, I can't go into the full details. I related just one example. But I probably shouldn't have bothered. I understand why you don't understand, but it would take me a long time to relate the entirety of the experience so we'll just have to leave it as is.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by Hilary

Steve, how does this fit with the belief in a subjective reality? Surely there are demons in your astral realms because you've decided, at some level, to create them there for your 'avatar' to meet? Couldn't I create myself a reality where there are no demons? You sound as if you're saying that this is just how things are, in an absolute sense, and your experience proves it.

Hilary made a point here.
There are no demons in my reality, and there is no chance that they ever will appear, because they are superfluous in my reality (I don't need the concept of demons, to find an explanation for my existence).

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by Frans

There are no demons in my reality, and there is no chance that they ever will appear, because they are superfluous in my reality (I don't need the concept of demons, to find an explanation for my existence).

Are you assuming that other people's demons don't exist outside of their minds, but are just mental constructs? That comes very close to assuming that all people with demons are deluded.

Also, can you make your reasoning clearer? You seem to be implying that once you explain your existence, nothing new (not even new ideas) can enter into your reality.

[Frans]

Originally Posted by skipjack

Are you assuming that other people's demons don't exist outside of their minds, but are just mental constructs? That comes very close to assuming that all people with demons are deluded.

I was talking about my subjective reality. If in your (subjective) reality demons appear, it means that you allow them to appear (but this doesn't imply that you are deluded ).
If this confuses you, please read Steve's articles about subjective reality.

Originally Posted by skipjack

You seem to be implying that once you explain your existence, nothing new (not even new ideas) can enter into your reality.

Suppose you have found a satisfying explanation for your existence, that all pieces fit together.
Your theory keeps standing as long as there are no contradictory elements appearing in your life that you cannot explain with your theory.
If something very odd happens in your life, and you can explain this with your theory, it means you are reinforcing that theory.
If you cannot explain this odd thing with your theory, it means you must adapt your theory.

[skipjack]

Your reply referred to the possibility of the actual (i.e., non-delusional) appearance of demons in other people's subjective reality.

Hence you need the concept of demons (as distinct from the existence of demons) in order to discuss other people's subjective reality.

Do you agree?

[Frans]

Originally Posted by skipjack

Your reply referred to the possibility of the actual (i.e., non-delusional) appearance of demons in other people's subjective reality.

Hence you need the concept of demons (as distinct from the existence of demons) in order to discuss other people's subjective reality.

Do you agree?

I cannot discuss other people's subjective reality because I'm not part of their subjective reality. My experiences are limited to my subjective reality.

Maybe demons appear in your subjective reality, but there is no way for me to find out whether that is true.
So, instead of saying to you "you are delusional", I prefer to say: "demons might appear in your reality, but they don't appear in mine".

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by Frans

I cannot discuss other people's subjective reality because I'm not part of their subjective reality. My experiences are limited to my subjective reality.

Would you allow the term "consider" or "consider certain possibilities relating to" instead of "discuss"? You are necessarily able to consider certain possibilities relating to my subjective reality, and use the concept of demons in so doing, since you have already made a statement on the matter, namely "If in your (subjective) reality demons appear, it means that you allow them to appear (but this doesn't imply that you are deluded)". Presumably, this could also apply to people other than myself (or was intended to apply to various people, not just myself).

[Frans]

IMO, a discussion about the existence/appearance of demons in one's reality is meaningless.
What might be "true" for you (in your subjective reality), is not necessarily "true" for me (in my subjective reality).

I can't go further that this:
Demons might appear in your reality, but they don't appear in mine.
If in your reality demons appear, it means there is a reason for this.

How can I judge from my perspective, what you see/experience from your perspective?

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by Frans

How can I judge from my perspective, what you see/experience from your perspective?

You would write (or talk) from your own perspective, and without direct knowledge of what another person saw or experienced, but you can produce a conditional statement, opinion or judgment. That is not difficult - for example, a jury does it when they consider evidence presented in a court case.

Originally Posted by Frans

IMO, a discussion about the existence/appearance of demons in one's reality is meaningless.

I disagree. For example, a jury may need to consider the mental state of a person prior to their death, so as to judge whether they were murdered or committed suicide.

You originally quoted from a conversation about demons between Hilary and Steve, and then wrote the neutral comment "Hilary made a point here."

If their conversation (as quoted) was not meaningful, it's odd that you chose to quote it and then stated that Hilary made a point.

Originally Posted by Frans

What might be "true" for you (in your subjective reality), is not necessarily "true" for me (in my subjective reality).

That is correct, but essentially a truism.

Originally Posted by Frans

I can't go further than this:
Demons might appear in your reality, but they don't appear in mine.
If in your reality demons appear, it means there is a reason for this.

Your earlier statement did, in fact, go further than that, since it added "it means you allow them to appear (but this doesn't imply that you are deluded)".

Your earlier statement went well beyond "they don't appear in mine", since you stated "There are no demons in my reality, and there is no chance that they ever will appear, because they are superfluous in my reality (I don't need the concept of demons, to find an explanation for my existence)."

Since your experiences are limited to your own subjective reality, how can you know that what happens in my subjective reality must (in at least one case) have a reason, and that reason is, at least in part, that I permit it?

[Frans]

Originally Posted by skipjack

Since your experiences are limited to your own subjective reality, how can you know that what happens in my subjective reality must (in at least one case) have a reason, and that reason is, at least in part, that I permit it?

I have said: "If in your (subjective) reality demons appear, it means that you allow them to appear (but this doesn't imply that you are deluded)."

For more clarification, I should have said: "If in your (subjective) reality demons appear, it means that your "real I" allows them to appear (but this doesn't imply that your avatar (skipjack) is deluded)".

To understand what I mean with your "real I" and "your avatar", please follow this thread (start at post #39): The failure of I-M

The principle of subjective reality (as I conceive it) implies that everything what happens in my reality must have a reason (nothing happens without reason).
If in your reality things happen without any reason, then please ignore my posts in this thread.

[skipjack]

In your opinion, is it possible for you to "opt out of" or reject subjective reality and hence have no subjective reality for a period of time, though remaining conscious?

Are one's thoughts necessarily part of one's subjective reality?

[Frans]

Originally Posted by skipjack

In your opinion, is it possible for you to "opt out of" or reject subjective reality and hence have no subjective reality for a period of time, though remaining conscious?

Are one's thoughts necessarily part of one's subjective reality?

To understand what I'm trying to say, it is necessary to follow the thread where I describe my own theory about my existence. This theory is based on subjective reality.
I can explain my existence with this theory, so "opt out" of subjective reality is not an option.

In my theory, there are two identities: the game-player (my real I) who wants to play the life game and my avatar (my ego/physical body). All other people in my reality are "variables".

It is perfect possible that what I consider "my" thoughts, are not "my" thoughts (thoughts that are generated by my ego), but that these thoughts originate from my real I. To me, it doesn't matter whether these thoughts are part of my subjective reality, because there is nobody else who can create these thoughts.

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by Frans

I can explain my existence with this theory, so "opt out" of subjective reality is not an option.

I had already carefully read your theory. Subjective reality is a term for something that the theory refers to which is neither the same thing as the theory nor the same thing as your existence. I understand that you can explain your existence with the theory, but that is a property of the theory, not an assertion within the theory. A theory may well need to consider an assertion even though unable to establish whether or not that assertion is correct.

Does your wording "is not an option" mean "is not my choice", "is logically or physically impossible (if so, please explain why)", or something else (in which case, please specify)?

[nycshortie72]

Well folks, this is the thing....about demons attacking you in your sleep? No such animal exists. Sometimes, when people cross over, they get lost, can't find the gate, or are so full of despair that they hang around with us, the living. They can take many forms, sometimes in the form they originally died in.

They try to contact us, get our attention...normally at nite when they can not be seen and (the most scary part) when we are asleep. So, when you feel like you're being strangeled in your sleep it is a person stuck in the middle, trying to talk to you. For the majority of people they freak the hell right out and think the devil (which does not exist :-) is coming to get us.

If you relax and strike up a convo with them, you will notice your energy starting to relax and if you're really open to it, you can find out what it is the entity wants, or how to help them cross to the other side.

One word of caution...once you open the gate, it never closes. It may diminish in the background if you ignore but it will not close completely.

Good luck!

[skipjack]

Originally Posted by nycshortie72

If you relax and strike up a convo with them, . . .

In your sleep?

[Mayo]

Here is the link for the mere mortals OBE technique, though it's not Kriya yoga, it should enable almost every mere mortal to experience astral projection relatively easy:

Astral Dynamics | Astral Projection, Energy Body, Healing, Kundalini, Auras, Self-Defense

I will start to use it, but before of that i have to set straight some of the earthly things like my monetary and physical state. I believe that for yoga and co. you have to have a certain will power.
As Erin said you need to have good chakra energy deployment, and because there are many negative entities even in astral world you need to know to fend your self.

As i said before, this needs to have earthling basics, so first thing first i need to know how it's to get up every day in 5AM. After i get to master when to rise up, i can master all other things.

Funny, because i always work up to late in the morning 4AM i tend to sleep till 1PM, this week i am getting up at 5AM, but i always tend to doze off more than previsioned, for example i set my self to get 20 minute rest on the couch but unfortunately i sleep off much more...

Well as i said, don't get into this kind of things if you are not ready.

Also i would like to ask Erin if this kind of experience is some kind of lucid dreaming:

Few days ago i dreamed i had an OBE, first i watched my self from the astral projection, i dreamed i had like three jumping projections of my body in sleeping position a meter above me, i jumped from projection where i watched my other two projections and my body, then from body other 3 projections that tilted one after another. After that some people told me that i was dreaming. Next i got into some kind of convention, where some persons hands got on my head, funny thing is that recently i started to feel the dreams on my skin (when today some tarantula-octopus like monster grabbed me i felt how it grabbed my body). Well after that person in my dream touched my head i started to sway back and forth a little and felt some tingling sensation. Second after that i felt a stream of energy in my back, like my back got in zero-G environment, and my hands felt like they were also released of any weight. Unfortunately i woke up and felt again like i was crushed (something i always feel when waking up ).

[Hilary]

<off topic, sorry>

About changing your sleeping hours - I've just been doing that, following Steve's suggestion of always getting up at the same time, and going to bed when you're tired. It works, but you can expect to spend some time half-asleep while your body adjusts.

As for controlling the length of naps during the day, I found that
a) like you, if I just 'intended' to wake up in 20 minutes I'd be off for an hour or more
b) if I set a timer, I'm too anxious about when it'll go off to get to sleep properly at all
c) if I listen to a brainwave entrainment session of the right length through headphones, I wake up naturally and gently when it ends (or when the track changes).

It worked for me - perhaps it'll work for you, too.

</off topic, sorry>

[Ijin Kaion]

ok it`s a bit late but hey i can`t miss an opportunity like this:P

to those who post with: what, why, how, proof, where, can`t, no, etc...
to attack like that is like to prove you are a faster typer.
or because you seem more intellectual so you are right.

if you don`t want to believe then it`s fine with me.

but believe me, i have seen hundreds of thousands of skeptics.
if there is one truth then it would be that skeptics exist.
they are the rule to notably be everywhere as a (ego)center of proof of existance.
and you can deny as hard as you like, but skeptics are there...

so

then here comes the right thing for you to worry about:

instead of pushing us to prove that all these things like demons and spirits are true,

You who are skeptics, prove to us that they are not

if you are a man that really wants to end the discussion, and indeed be right, then you will accept this challenge.

and i cannot imagine that there aren`t enough skeptics willing to claim that title of:
the one that proved us wrong.

hahaha:P

[MilesTyler]

First of all I'd like to say hello to everyone as I am new here and this is only my third post.

Wow! This thread is so full of varied perspectives. I like that. I think it is what the whole point of existence is all about. I like to think of the universe as one entity observing itself evolving through different sets of eyes. We are the eyes. Actually we are a bit more than just the eyes as we are actively participating in it's evolution.

We each have a unique perspective that is determined by a plethora of perceptual factors. We each view the same universe and the same base energies and interpret them through the lens of our own beliefs, feelings, and ideas. We carry our psyches around with us and observe everything through them like giant spy glasses.

Not only do we observe the energy patterns that surround us but we manipulate them into things that reflect our fears. We use that same energy to destroy the "evil" things that we fear about ourselves and the world around us. This is especially true when we are projecting our consciousness into the realms and dimensions of higher energy.

Through my own many experiences throughout the years I have discovered that we create our own demons and draw them to us through our own fears.

If you believe in the Law of Attraction, then you understand that what you naturally attract into your life is based upon what you are thinking about and how you are feeling. This effect is multiplied many times over in the realm of the astral.

We are powerful beings with abilities that we have yet to even imagine. Right now our most powerful tools for manipulating the energy that surrounds us are our feelings, emotions, and imaginations. With the combination of your own fear as fuel and the infinite power of your imagination as a tool you have the potential to create armies of demonic beings out of the energy that is surrounding you. You can then turn around and use that same inexhaustible energy to vanquish them all in a single instant.

Of course that is just an example. Once we learn to overcome our fear and embrace joy and love, we have the potential to utilize this energy for so much more.

[Ijin Kaion]

it`s true that we each have our own views.

but consider this:
christian says: god exists
wiccan says: godesses exist

christian says: no that`s not right there is only one true god
wiccan says: there are more gods and godesses you are wrong

i say: they both exist.

from the many perspectives there are it is but a simple answer to say they are all true but i follow my perspective.

same as my findings don`t overthrow yours, and vice versa.
a lot of people just have difficulties believing such a concept may be true.

we are not just parts of the universe we are also creators ourself.

[MilesTyler]

Originally Posted by Ijin Kaion

we are not just parts of the universe we are also creators ourself.

That is actually what I was implying when I said:

"Actually we are a bit more than just the eyes as we are actively participating in it's evolution."

and

"We are powerful beings with abilities that we have yet to even imagine."


and


"Once we learn to overcome our fear and embrace joy and love, we have the potential to utilize this energy for so much more."


While it is true the we are all creators there are many who have yet to consciously awaken to the full realization of their ultimate potential.

It is a journey of realization and path of discovery that we are all on and are experiencing together. We each have our own ways of arriving there.

[Ijin Kaion]

sorry bout that, i have a tendancy to place things so i understand them better.

so same stuff different name.

but here is another add to the part about ultimate potential.

as i have roamed a lot of forums like this, i noticed that a lot of people fear what they are able to do.
great power comes with great responsibillity after all.

but i have set that fear aside because answers of truth cannot be obtained with questiones of fear.

i wonder, and i will find out eventually by reading, how many people still cling to what is now, rather then what can be.

[MilesTyler]

Originally Posted by Ijin Kaion

sorry bout that, i have a tendancy to place things so i understand them better.

so same stuff different name.

but here is another add to the part about ultimate potential.

as i have roamed a lot of forums like this, i noticed that a lot of people fear what they are able to do.
great power comes with great responsibillity after all.

but i have set that fear aside because answers of truth cannot be obtained with questiones of fear.

i wonder, and i will find out eventually by reading, how many people still cling to what is now, rather then what can be.

I completely agree with you.
What you are saying is true.
There is absolutely nothing to fear about our untapped potential.
Though fear is indeed a crippling factor for many.
That is why we have to learn to release our fear and embrace the energy and responsibility of our true nature.
Often times, people are so busy "shielding" and "protecting" themselves from what they fear, when what they are actually doing is halting their progress.
Sometimes facing your fear and defeating it, whatever form that may take, is what is necessary to release the fear and realize the true power.

This process is easier for some while it is an ongoing experience of emotional and spiritual healing for others.

Everyone makes the journey at their own pace.

[Ijin Kaion]

indeed they do it at their own pace.
i haven`t been sitting still at any rate, so i studied alot and done alot.

but indeed facing fear is a good thing.
so defeating that wich you fear is difficult for anyone, but when the first step is taken it is taken.

affraid of death?
then defeat it.
although you meant defeating the fear itself, it`s not that bad of a concept.

so i share what i found out myself, and my vision of it and the vision of the other is different, but that is encouraging to find out what more is out there if you want to do it differently then that encourages you to seek that out.

as i learn more myself from these things aswell.

i can tell what things exist and are there what i know of, but i don`t know all.

and then there is the other kind of people: the skeptics:P
i cincerly welcome them for a nice chat once they found out that what they denied was actually real:P

so a little question milestyler: are you an older soul?

[MilesTyler]

I have always felt that I am an older soul and many have said that they thought so as well. I have always experienced this sense of "knowing" with certain things.

My mother once told me that when she first looked into my eyes as an infant she glimpsed a spark of something that she hadn't seen in her other children. (I am the youngest of five. So I suppose that is saying something.) She said she felt like she was looking into the eyes of an older person. She also told me that she had an out of body experience when she was giving birth to me.

I found that very intriguing.

I have also always felt that everyone in the universe is equally special and possess the same ultimate potential. I came to the realization at an early age that there is no such thing as insignificance. Every particle in the universe no matter how finite is infinitely and equally significant.

[Ijin Kaion]

true that, all is all, and all is important.

however there is difference in each individual`s ultimate potential.
not as to place people in classes or anything but there is a difference.

i`m an old soul too.

although i arrived at this body in a different way, mine was an accident.
so as to improve and get out of this error, i am doing the best i can.

i saw a thread where someone posted that we should not be thrown back on earth after death through rebirth.
i agree on this, but if nobody acts on it, then nothing changes.
so i took measures to be a starter.

if nobody does it, then i will:P

but that aside, wouldn`t you agree to it that to evolve further our surroundings should evolve aswell?