Believers: Explain to me this...

[Valeria]

Originally Posted by Erin Pavlina

Recently I was having a conversation with my uncle. He told me that years ago when I was around 7 or 8 years old he had taken me and my siblings to see Logan's Run (for the 10th time). He said he was sitting in the car thinking, "Why on earth do they want to keep seeing the same movie?" He told me at that moment I turned to him and said, "Uncle, you're probably wondering why on earth we want to keep seeing the same movie." He told me he was blown away that I appeared to have read his thoughts, word for word, using the same phrase he was thinking.

This happens to me and my daughter often! She often reads my mind.

We both also have strong mediumistic tendencies.

One remarkable occurrence was a few months ago. I was talking about my deceased mother, and how she probably would not have approved of something I said. At that moment, I felt her presence behind me, as if she were sitting on the couch watching disapprovingly.

At that moment, my daughter said, "you don't know...she could be sitting behind you right now!"

My daughter is 8, by the way. Both my kids are highly intuitive and I encourage it as much as possible.

[shesaboutspirit]

I'm going to start a new thread here soon to explore some of the physical experiences that have blown the doors off of my belief system. When those energies start making things move on their own, limbs "unwinding" and doing various "Mudras". Can't wait to hear some thoughts on these things...

Pam

[Steve Pavlina]

Originally Posted by thef0x

Is it possible that the astral plane is as real as our world? Yes, there's no way to disprove this, clearly. But, based on what we've experienced and what most of us think is true, is it more probable that our physical world is more real? I think so.

I don't think the nature of reality is determined by a popularity contest. Our history suggests we are often proven wrong when making such assumptions.

Originally Posted by thef0x

Some reasons: you must transcend this world to reach that one, where upon you return back to this one. Such experiences are a product of your mind which exists within this physical world.

You could just as easily say the opposite is true. You transcend the astral realms to reach the physical plane, so you can manifest your physical body and mind as projections of thought.

When I'm having an astral experience, it actually feels more "natural" to me than being in the physical world. I'm inclined, however, to view the physical world as a parallel reality, no greater or lesser than any other.

If you base your entire perception of reality on a single perspective (i.e. rooted in the physical world), then sure... it will seem like everything else must be interpreted relative to that perspective. But this is the same bias that got people concluding that all celestial bodies orbit the earth.

If we really want to understand the nature of reality, we need to poke around a bit more and see it from multiple perspectives. When we assume the sun's perspective, for instance, the planetary orbits make a lot more sense.

Just as the earth is not the center of the physical universe, it's unlikely the physical universe is the center of all other universes. We're just one frequency among many.

[andrew]

Exactly. I figure that if a lot of things that were considered fact 500 years ago are now looked on as rediculously silly, then why wouldn't that be the case of 500 years from now looking back on us?

"Oh those silly 21st centery people on planet Earth thinking in their 3 demensions and their religions. They were so barbaric and ignorant."

I mean really, how hard is it to see that 100 years ago space travel, let alone flight was imposible as traveling to other dimensions?

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by andrew

Exactly. I figure that if a lot of things that were considered fact 500 years ago are now looked on as rediculously silly, then why wouldn't that be the case of 500 years from now looking back on us?

"Oh those silly 21st centery people on planet Earth thinking in their 3 demensions and their religions. They were so barbaric and ignorant."

I mean really, how hard is it to see that 100 years ago space travel, let alone flight was imposible as traveling to other dimensions?

I believe that our biology limits our functions, and that some things we cannot control, like our ability to fly and to travel in other dimensions.

I believe we cannot transcend the four dimensions we live in.

I also believe in string theory.

[escapee]

Originally Posted by thef0x

I believe that our biology limits our functions, and that some things we cannot control, like our ability to fly and to travel in other dimensions.

I believe we cannot transcend the four dimensions we live in.

I also believe in string theory.

I believe in emptiness.

[thef0x]

Originally Posted by escapee

I believe in emptiness.

I've read the Tao many times.

I'm fascinated by the contradictions which seem to express the duality of nature, which at times is true and other times, untrue; at times moving, sometimes static; happiness and sadness.

But I like ancient Greek philosophy more, I think it does what the Tao does but is actually clear.

I'm not sure if I believe in "the" way.. Maybe "a" way.

I'm confused about free will and determinism at the moment.

[Matt]

This thread covers a lot of ground, I'd like to contribute my $0.02.

A simple test for the objective validity of out-of-body experiences is to have the subject lie down, and place a drawing facing upwards up high so they can't see it. If they are able to exit their body and peer down at themselves they should also be able to view the picture. This makes the assumption that the astral plane and the physical plane coexist in the same space and that while in the astral plane an individual can fully perceive the physical plane. Controlled tests have failed but there continues to be anecdotal accounts by many people of many different types of OBEs.

Reincarnation is also quite interesting. There have been several reported cases where children have been able to recall the lives of specific individuals who died before their birth (their "past lives"). In a number of these cases the children are able to recall very specific details such as a person's name, the names of relatives and friends, how they died, and specific details of their life. These individuals did not live near the children and were not widely known or famous. The actual identities of these past lives are figured out only after the parents piece together the incredibly accurate details of the children's vivid memories and track down the records of the person's life and family.

This was already hinted at a little bit, but another thing to consider is recent scientific studies. Classic physics and materialism are becoming old-fashioned. String theory, quantum field theory, and quantum cosmology are our newest, most promising tools we have at our disposal. Matter is no longer reducible to matter and it's not clear what energy really is. The limiting factor in these fields seems to be our intellect. Many experiments have been carried using different principles of quantum mechanics and yielded complementary results giving us concrete information to work with. The problem is, we lack the mental equipment to properly conceptualize these theories. Suddenly, philosophy is inseparable from science again. We are struggling to comprehend our discoveries.

What's the answer? I don't know. It's hopeless to try and shoehorn everyone's experiences into a rigid belief system. I try to stay open-minded with a healthy dose of skepticism. I work on myself where I know I can improve and explore and adjust my beliefs to accept anything I discover along the way. I strive to learn vivid visualization (I want it to be as good as normal vision), different meditation techniques, lucid dreaming, and eventually astral projection so I can see for myself what is out there.

So far, so good. I just treat others as I would like to be treated, do my best to reduce suffering anywhere I can in the world, and work hard to grow to my highest potential. I have discarded the concept of Heaven and Hell -- good vs evil -- a 2-dimensional approach to goodness. Now I see things as more of a continuum from fear to unconditional love. The concept of evil now just seems dismissive to me. My (very few) misfortunes are more constructive than destructive, and by the time I am able to explore the astral plane I hope to be at a conscious level where my fears are so minimized and insignificant that I do not attract negative attention of any sort.

P.S. Sorry, I didn't mean to write an entire book on the subjects.

[Erin Pavlina]

Matt, that was very coherent. I think you did an excellent job of stating your thoughts.

Regarding the astral projection test. I remember reading once that they had an AP'er lying in one room and they put a photo in another room very high up. The APer was able to report acurately what was on the photo, but the researchers had to conclude that he may have gotten the information through telepathy instead of AP so they rejected the possibility of AP. My reaction to that was, "So what if it was AP. At least he got it right."

But you're right, an APer should be able to see something in the physical world.

[Steve Pavlina]

During my astral experiences where I found myself in my own bedroom next to my sleeping body, I didn't feel like I was still in the physical plane. It felt more like an alternate dimension... a space-time echo of the physical plane. So I wouldn't expect physical objects from one plane to exactly coincide with the other. Differences are common.

It sort of reminds me of the old TV show Sliders, where a group of people bounced around to alternate dimensions that were similar but slightly different.

[Erin Pavlina]

Yes I'll add an experience here.

One time during an astral projection I took note of my nightstand next to my bed. I saw my lamp, the clock, my kleenex box, but I could not see my water glass. I knew my water glass should be there, but try as I might, I couldn't see it. I don't know why I could see the other items and not the glass. Perhaps it was simply harder to see in the dark since it's transparent, but I've always wondered about that.

[escapee]

Just in case some of you may not know , You could actually induce AP with alpha and deta harmonic sold on plenty of AP websites. This may be useful for those who have zero success with AP no matter how hard they've tried . For me , I'm just content with my current perception of dimension .

[Boldylocks]

Regarding the first post in this thread-- At one time I didnt think demons existed, but have had personal experiences myself to the contrary. My sister has also had a very lucid awake experience with a demon in an apartment she rented. I won't go into it, but it turned her from sceptic to being aware of the unseen. Just because pre-industrial revolution people, or those in the Middle ages believed in dark entities doesnt mean that they were wrong.

Actually, the Industrial Revolution has blinded us so called "intelligent modern people to alot of things-- including Alternative healing with herbs, etc., to just name one tiny example.

Anyway, I think it makes sense that fear and negative energy inside ourselves will attract negative entities towards us- as well as other negative people who are influenced by negative entities. Like attracts like.

I would bet that after we die, we won't be able to hide our thoughts or hangups- and will end up gravitating to other souls who share the same vibration we do. Like attract likes. So ,this is why it's so important for us all to allow things that happen to us to discipline our souls and help us to grow spiritually- and raise our vibrations.

[whiteNate]

To all the people claiming to have encountered real demons while APing, lucid dreaming, or just walking to the store...

Wouldn't a real demon just stomp all over you and eat your soul for lunch? As far as I know there are no vegan demons. If real demons existed far more people would have traumatic injuries and scars from their encounters. Instead, all I hear is something like, "yeah that demon was going to KILL ME, but... uhm... then I woke up and I was safe..."

The other possibility is that real demons aren't dangerous. Maybe they are more like my aunt's yappy lap dog.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by whiteNate

To all the people claiming to have encountered real demons while APing, lucid dreaming, or just walking to the store...

Wouldn't a real demon just stomp all over you and eat your soul for lunch? As far as I know there are no vegan demons. If real demons existed far more people would have traumatic injuries and scars from their encounters. Instead, all I hear is something like, "yeah that demon was going to KILL ME, but... uhm... then I woke up and I was safe..."

The other possibility is that real demons aren't dangerous. Maybe they are more like my aunt's yappy lap dog.

all people can really do is observe what happens

according to all the various accounts i've read, it seems that "real demons" are restricted from interacting with people in many ways. There is a leash on them, so to speak, and their primary tool is fear.

Specifically, my inclination is to believe that demons cannot violate free will unless a person requests them to. Demons and spirits as a whole can have only very limited effects on humans unless humans specifically ask for more.

So as long as you don't ask for a demon to burn you, you won't be burned.

That's just one theory though.

All we can really do is observe what happens, and you're right, it seems that most demons or negative entities or whatever are powerless to effect people if those people do not invite them.

[Erin Pavlina]

Demons don't just attack you physically like a rabid animal.

Mostly they are interested in sucking your astral energy dry or destroying your life through manipulations and ego-gratification.

[Boldylocks]

Originally Posted by yossarian

all people can really do is observe what happens

according to all the various accounts i've read, it seems that "real demons" are restricted from interacting with people in many ways. There is a leash on them, so to speak, and their primary tool is fear.

Specifically, my inclination is to believe that demons cannot violate free will unless a person requests them to. Demons and spirits as a whole can have only very limited effects on humans unless humans specifically ask for more.

So as long as you don't ask for a demon to burn you, you won't be burned.

That's just one theory though.

All we can really do is observe what happens, and you're right, it seems that most demons or negative entities or whatever are powerless to effect people if those people do not invite them.

I couldn't have said it better!


Very true- I do feel they love to provoke negative emotions or even sometimes purely 100% selfish sexual emotions because they feed off of this type of energy we send out.

In my sister's case, she was wide awake and laying in her bed. The room became blacker than black for some reason, and her two cats started to get uneasy- then freaked out and ran into the kitchen.

She actually was left in her bed physically paralyzed. Then the demon took shape and appeared as a translucent cloaked hooded figure -- like a monk.
It glided to her bedside while she was stuck there in total fear, unable to move. And it proceeded to drop itself right through her body.

She told me, "Lisa, it was the most horrible feeling I had ever experienced. It was like Rape must be like, but spiritual rape. It left her feeling totally depressed and afraid.

She told my mother and I, and that day we both looked in the classified for a new apartment for her. She no longer slept in that apartment that week.

OUr pastor prayed over her, and asked her if she had asked God's to choose where to live prior to this. He mentioned that sometimes when we do things without asking for God's advice on when, where, who, what-- we end up in territories, etc., that God is not at, but where negative entities feel at home. There are pockets of demonic areas on Earth-- some people can sense them out.

So if we go where we don't belong, demons are permitted to harrass us, since it's like we are giving them permission out of our free will. They still can't kill us without God's permission though--which is why many have experiences but live to tell them.



She prayed after that for God to close the door on the wrong apartment and open the door to the right one-- and literally a really good, sunny , inexpensive apartment fell right in her lap a few days later. My pastor visited it and said it gave him good vibes. (He was very psychic)

She never had a problem since.

[Syriven]

This is a very interesting discussion, but I can't be the only one wondering... As someone who has only heard about it very rarely, how exactly does one "get to" the astral plane?

[moviestar]

You have a similar realiy to mine thef0x. Let me add something here.

Everything we experience in our concious mind that we can define, label or point out and describe it as some singular entity comes from mythos. Mythos is a Greek term used for describing a collection of myths, stories and legends about the world. Mythos is the entire accumulated knowledge of humankind. Everything comes from it: demons, devils, angels, good, evil, God. Every word you use, every label that you attach to something you experience comes from this knowledge.
There is no thought in your mind that is yours. You cannot honestly say that a thought is entirely your own. Every thought you have is only there because someone has thought it in the past (this concept explains also psychic abilities, I can write about it if it interests anyone).

Your entire perception of reality is dictated by the myths that were carried on by the people that lived before you.

To understand this better, let's take an old philosophical metaphor.

Suppose there is a child born, that cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot taste, cannot feel. That means it doesn't have any senses with which it can experience the world. Now, does this child have any thoughts?

The answer is no. Without experience there is no thought.

My point is: would astral worlds and all kinds of entities in them (like demons) exist and would it be possible for you to experience them without the knowledge that you have about them?

The answer is again no. If I am right that proves that alternate realities are just creations of our minds, creations of the knowledge of humankind. There is nothing spooky about them.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by moviestar

You have a similar realiy to mine thef0x. Let me add something here.

Everything we experience in our concious mind that we can define, label or point out and describe it as some singular entity comes from mythos. Mythos is a Greek term used for describing a collection of myths, stories and legends about the world. Mythos is the entire accumulated knowledge of humankind. Everything comes from it: demons, devils, angels, good, evil, God. Every word you use, every label that you attach to something you experience comes from this knowledge.
There is no thought in your mind that is yours. You cannot honestly say that a thought is entirely your own. Every thought you have is only there because someone has thought it in the past (this concept explains also psychic abilities, I can write about it if it interests anyone).

Your entire perception of reality is dictated by the myths that were carried on by the people that lived before you.

To understand this better, let's take an old philosophical metaphor.

Suppose there is a child born, that cannot see, cannot hear, cannot smell, cannot taste, cannot feel. That means it doesn't have any senses with which it can experience the world. Now, does this child have any thoughts?

The answer is no. Without experience there is no thought.

My point is: would astral worlds and all kinds of entities in them (like demons) exist and would it be possible for you to experience them without the knowledge that you have about them?

The answer is again no. If I am right that proves that alternate realities are just creations of our minds, creations of the knowledge of humankind. There is nothing spooky about them.

so who came up with the first myth?

If humans can only conceive of what they experience, then all of these mythical creations from Abominable Snowmen to Zombies must be real.

[moviestar]

Originally Posted by yossarian

so who came up with the first myth?

If humans can only conceive of what they experience, then all of these mythical creations from Abominable Snowmen to Zombies must be real.

Maybe I have not stated myself clear. Your experience is determined by your knowledge. There is no experience without the knowledge about the things you experience. That doesn't mean that knowledge comes from reality! This knowledge is collected from all humans (it is all thoughts). I don't know where it really comes from and how it started so I cannot honestly answer where the first myth came from. Maybe it was always there...

The entire human knowledge (mythos) is there to help you live. It is what makes us the leading species on this planet, it is our intelligence. If we have a concept of a Zombie, that means somebody thought about such thing because it helped him in some way. Even for amusement. But it doesn't mean it exists in an absolute reality.

[Hilary]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

...
If you don't believe there are demon-like creatures in the astral realms, consider yourself lucky for never having met one. It's not really something I'd encourage people to try.

Hangonaminute...

Steve, how does this fit with the belief in a subjective reality? Surely there are demons in your astral realms because you've decided, at some level, to create them there for your 'avatar' to meet? Couldn't I create myself a reality where there are no demons? You sound as if you're saying that this is just how things are, in an absolute sense, and your experience proves it.



(Please forgive me if someone else has already made this point and I missed it as I read through!)

Great thread, by the way.

[yossarian]

Originally Posted by moviestar

Maybe I have not stated myself clear. Your experience is determined by your knowledge. There is no experience without the knowledge about the things you experience. That doesn't mean that knowledge comes from reality! This knowledge is collected from all humans (it is all thoughts). I don't know where it really comes from and how it started so I cannot honestly answer where the first myth came from. Maybe it was always there...

The entire human knowledge (mythos) is there to help you live. It is what makes us the leading species on this planet, it is our intelligence. If we have a concept of a Zombie, that means somebody thought about such thing because it helped him in some way. Even for amusement. But it doesn't mean it exists in an absolute reality.

Could a person with no senses think of a zombie? I thought you already said they could not...

Your logic says this:

1) A person born with no sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste has no Zombie thoughts.
2) Therefore, Zombies are derived from experience.

I guess I just don't really see the use of your theory and it seems inaccurate anyway. Maybe I'm not getting it.

[Hilary]

We can't name experiences (as God, demons etc) without cultural knowledge. And there's generally more than one name we could use: the 'supernatural' explanation is probably never the only possible one. So Boldylock's sister and her pastor call her experience a demonic attack; if she'd spoken to her doctor instead, I expect he'd have called it sleep paralysis with hypnagogic hallucinations, and reassured her that it wasn't dangerous. I'm not sure which response would be more helpful, though.

Anyway - we need knowledge to name experiences, and names to think about experiences. But do we need it in order to have the experiences? I think not.

[moviestar]

Anyway - we need knowledge to name experiences, and names to think about experiences. But do we need it in order to have the experiences? I think not.

That is my claim. We cannot have the experience unless there is knowledge about it. Somehow through learning or even through our genes or in any other way the knowledge is passed on to you. The knowledge about everything: that this is a computer monitor, that is the sky, this is a space-ship, that is a zombie, this is blue, that is hot, that is rough, that is loud. I do not mean that we name these things. Imagine that you have no language. I am talking just about experiences.

Your logic says this:

1) A person born with no sight, hearing, touch, smell, taste has no Zombie thoughts.
2) Therefore, Zombies are derived from experience.

No. I am only saying that experience is derived from knowledge.
Therefore, you cannot have an outer-body experience because what you call an outer-body experience is just your knowledge manifesting about that.

That's what I wanted to state. I don't want to hijack this thread, so if this seems completely bizarre then lets leave it.

[Hilary]

A baby with colic is in pain, and wails. Does the baby know it's experiencing pain? We can't tell, of course, but I would guess that it doesn't know, it just experiences it.

I'm aware of the presence of God. I had a very enlightening discussion once with an atheistic scientist, in which I struggled to persuade her to admit at least the possibility that there might be something more to life. During the course of the conversation, she talked about her sense of awe when she contemplated the workings of physics - and I realised that she was talking about the same awareness. (I also realised how redundant my efforts at persuasion were, and stopped.)

That's just another example (to go with the sleep paralysis) of the same experience being 'known' in two different ways - which, I think, suggests the experience is prior to the knowledge. We can't talk about it, think about it or conceive of it without 'knowing' it one way or another, but that doesn't necessarily mean it wasn't there first.

Am I managing to address your point, or have I missed it?

[moviestar]

Originally Posted by Hilary

A baby with colic is in pain, and wails. Does the baby know it's experiencing pain? We can't tell, of course, but I would guess that it doesn't know, it just experiences it.

It does not know that it is experiencing pain because it has no reason for it. It is just the body that is reacting to certain stimuli. Your experience of pain arrives later when you somehow learn that this is pain, this is pleasure and you make a distinction. This is when then experience appears in your conciousness.
Just to let you understand my concept better, consider this:

When the body is in either pain or in pleasure it groans.

The reaction is the same.
It is you that is making the distinction between these two sensations.
You consider this pain and that pleasure because of the knowledge that is imposed on you. You create labels and say pain is bad, pleasure is good. It is like this with everything you have in your head.

[ndc]

Originally Posted by escapee

Just in case some of you may not know , You could actually induce AP with alpha and deta harmonic sold on plenty of AP websites. This may be useful for those who have zero success with AP no matter how hard they've tried . For me , I'm just content with my current perception of dimension .

Has anyone tried this "alpha and deta harmonic" with any success? Just curious. I'm still exploring lucid dreaming and with all this demon talk I KNOW I'm too much of a chicken to try AP yet!

Anyway, just being a little skeptical. If it was as easy as buying a cd, why wouldn't everyone buy one?

Nikki

[Lallymac]

The Fox: I understand some of the perspectives viewed on here are difficult to comprehend in the rational mind. I think I can comfortably say that most people who have experienced them have questioned their source of origin also. Through out life I have experienced things outside the realms of norm and yet I consider myself to be a normal rational person. A profound experience I had at 18 had everyone around me questioning my sanity. I was working and flatting in the city with friends. I was a trainee pattern maker working alongside a fashion designer. It was a normal day and the radio was on in the background. I 'heard' the news announcer say that the body of an 18 yr old had been found on a golf course in my family community. The body had been identified and my best friend. We had been best friends since we were 8 and shared each other's homes and lives in every way. She had been annorexic a couple years earlier, made a full recovery and was living at home, studying graphics and design.
I was grief stricken. My boss called a cab and sent me home. My flatmates arrived home just after me. They had heard the news throughout the day but didn't hear that news. One of them rung my girlfriends parents and she answered the phone. My flatmates were furious thinking I'd played a sick joke on them. I was horribly confused. For me the whole thing had been incredibly real. Everyone backed away and I was too confused to tell my boss.
Exactly a week later I heard the announcement on the radio again. This time I really did think I was going insane. It carried on throughout the day and I ignored it. I got home from work to find my flatmates distraught. The funeral was a blur. I couldn't speak to her parents or mine. Somehow I thought that a sick part of my mind had created it.
Not long after I married a nice Christian man who had a book with the rules. It was safe. I surrendered to it for a few years and worked really hard at trying to prove to myself I was normal by being the perfect mother/wife.
How could you create something like that? Why would you? I lost some good friends over it because it scared the crap out of them. It scared my family.
How does the rational mind rationalise it? It took years and more of those spontaneous experiences to comprehend it.
Lallymac

[emf]

Why am I manifesting a universe in which Hilary refuses to take responsibility for her reality and has assigned the role of Creator to Steve? Is this scenario empowering me in some way or should I change it?

Originally Posted by Hilary

Hangonaminute...

Steve, how does this fit with the belief in a subjective reality? Surely there are demons in your astral realms because you've decided, at some level, to create them there for your 'avatar' to meet? Couldn't I create myself a reality where there are no demons? You sound as if you're saying that this is just how things are, in an absolute sense, and your experience proves it.



(Please forgive me if someone else has already made this point and I missed it as I read through!)

Great thread, by the way.