Plenty of money in the world… How come you don’t have any…???

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Ilya
So if a person is poor, he will be motivated to make more money. Actually, he won't need any motivation, he will have a natural desire to make more money.

Good post Ilya… However, I think that we need to go over a little semantic (definition) here… especially on the word “motivate…”

Here, in North America, when we use the word “motivated” we don’t only mean that you will work toward achieving something… we mean that you will do “outstanding” effort and deploy inordinate amount of energy toward getting or achieving something… and have the courage, will and energy to do it…

A person who is starving may be motivated to get some food… but, if once his belly is full… he sits on his arse and wait to be starving again to go on a search for some more food… we will not say that he is motivated…

I don't like the way your quote works. It is intended to hurt a person's pride and self-esteem, to evoke a defense reaction, an adrenaline rush and a stress.

Of course my quote would not work if it was addressed to people who are not seeking to be motivated… but it will do wonders for people who want to be motivated so that they can reach the higher echelons of success…

A motivator is like a coach… his purpose is to get the most out of his subjects… and you don’t get to be a good coach or motivator by pampering you players or students… passionate people will respond to a passionate message… and nothing else… and that is why my quote, in the proper time and perspective, is very effective…

I, personally would be a lot more motivated is someone told me… "If you don’t succeed it is because you are either too lazy or stupid…" then if that same person told me… "Do your best… but if you don’t succeed… you will have the satisfaction of having tried…"

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[Max Power]

Money is an issue for most, because it's their observations about money that define how much they will ultimately make. Most people can find a partner in life, most people can be reasonably healthy, but getting rich is different, why? Observation.

People see other people struggling with money and the making of it and they take those observations and plant them in their own observation. If everyone was rich and lots of money seemed to be easy to make, then we would all be rich.

When Roger Banister broke the four minute mile, within 12 months ten other people had done it, but up until that time no one could do it. Once others saw it was possible, observed it was possible then others did it.

The trick with observation is to not observe things you don't want and that means turning the news off, stop hanging around with people who talk money down and to start observing what you want.

The YouTube guys within two years had made $100 million each from nothing but an idea and a website, we're they smarter than you? Does Bill gates have a bigger brain, better business sense? Hardly. All the rich people observe the possibilities and go after them, I would imagine that all self successfull people at some stage observed someone else doing it and copied them or at very least saw it was possible and observed themselves doing it.

What ever you're observing, you creating.

Max

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by Shamou

Here, in North America, when we use the word “motivated” we don’t only mean that you will work toward achieving something… we mean that you will do “outstanding” effort and deploy inordinate amount of energy toward getting or achieving something… and have the courage, will and energy to do it…

I don't see contradiction here. If look at my post I specifically noted, that desire to satisfy the basic needs should not be called motivation.
Ok, here, in Europe and Asia motivation means an additional pull or a push (or a kick) that a person needs to overcome some obstacle. Turning a success into exceptional success can be such an obstacle.

And you can achieve it through will, energy boost which in turn can be achieved through motivation.

My point is that most of the obstacles arise from the lack of knowledge and skill, not from the lack of energy or will. And providing knowledge and training is more efficient (even if as effective) than providing motivation.

Let me use a metaphor. Imagine a car race. To win the race, you need an exceptional performance. But those who win the race, do it because of their skills and the skills of mechanics. It is useless to put a more powerful engine on a car of unskilled driver. He will just crash faster.

And even if we put a rocket engine on a skilled driver's car and he wins, this victory will be bittersweet. It will not be an achievement of human spirit, it will not be elegant, it will not be artful. It will be the victory of brute force, of Goliath. And since ancient times we favor Davids over Goliaths.
We consider genius the person who does exceptional things with little perceived effort, not by iron will and persistance. We respect hardworking achievers, but we admire geniuses. I think this is universally true, North America or not.

Of course my quote would not work if it was addressed to people who are not seeking to be motivated… but it will do wonders for people who want to be motivated so that they can reach the higher echelons of success…

Maybe. I see what you mean. I think I just overgrew such kind of shocking and fear based motivation. The only motivation for me to do anything is to fulfill my purpose as much as possible.
But I see how this can shake somebody up, if they are stuck in some negative state. Still, as with good words and a Colt, motivation with teaching works better then just motivation. Without actionable outlet this motivation can be a beginning of a vicious cycle.

I remember, how such quotes brought me into excited state, I would run around wishing to do anything, but lacking a next action. In a few days I would burn out and crash into depression. To get out, I would read another motivational book and the cycle would repeat. Maybe this was the beginning of me as self-help junkie.

Fortunately, I discovered training seminars, when people would get information and would excersise while getting whatever motivation was needed. Results were apparent within weeks.

This led me to lower the rank of the purely motivational products compared to learning ones.

A motivator is like a coach… his purpose is to get the most out of his subjects… and you don’t get to be a good coach or motivator by pampering you players or students… passionate people will respond to a passionate message… and nothing else… and that is why my quote, in the proper time and perspective, is very effective…

Yes, but at the start of your topic, you address this quote to forum members. And judging from mixed reaction this was not the proper time and perspective for everyone. And I can't say that those who reacted negatively are not passionate about making money.

And as a side-note. I find coaching metaphor in personal development a dangerous one. Coaches of the professional sport are among the greatest soul-thieves the people ever knew. They seduce the young people who exercise for health and fitness with fame and success that professional sports can bring. They also seduce the parents. Then, as you correctly describe it - they get the most out of their subjects. Yes, some of the sportsmen get the fame and money. But most are left with ruined health, very specialized life experience, adrenaline addiction and hurt ego at the age of 40 (at best). At that point they have few choices in front of them. One of the choices is to become a coach... and continue the cycle.
The worst part is that the sportsmen do not get to know what their life purpose is until it is too late.
I know that professional sports are a huge part of North American culture and the best achievers do get their millions and fame.
Still I wouldn't use sport coach mentality for PD without major adjustments.

It is also interesting how your use of word passion here connects to the discussion in other thread. The passion expressed in the quote does not seem very love-based to me.

I, personally would be a lot more motivated is someone told me… "If you don’t succeed it is because you are either too lazy or stupid…" then if that same person told me… "Do your best… but if you don’t succeed… you will have the satisfaction of having tried…"

It is funny. Your second quote would work for me better. And it did some years before. But in a slightly different form: "The one who aims at the sun, is sure to miss, but he is as sure to hit higher then the one who aims at a bush."

I think the difference boils down to two modes of motivation: "away" motivation and "towards" motivation. I was brought up as an "away" person and worked a lot to develop the other mode. I guess, I've suceeded, since away motivation does not work for me as well as it did before.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Ilya
My point is that most of the obstacles arise from the lack of knowledge and skill, not from the lack of energy or will. And providing knowledge and training is more efficient (even if as effective) than providing motivation.

If by “knowledge and skill” you mean teaching the philosophical mindset that says, “If you know how… and if you are determined enough… you can achieve anything that you want…” I understand, if not… I am complete lost in your rhetoric…

We consider genius the person who does exceptional things with little perceived effort, not by iron will and persistance. We respect hardworking achievers, but we admire geniuses. I think this is universally true, North America or not.

The operative word here would be, “perceived” effort… because I know of no one who has achieved great things without great efforts… and persistence… However, maybe you could give me some examples…

Yes, but at the start of your topic, you address this quote to forum members. And judging from mixed reaction this was not the proper time and perspective for everyone.

I must admit that I find it extremely hard to have any compassion for anyone who is not willing to do the things necessary to succeed in life…

If someone comes to me with a button missing on his shirt… I will gladly help that person to sew the button on… but if someone comes to me with a button and want me to attach a shirt to it… that person will get the frigid shoulder very fast… I have no empathy or sympathy for slackers…

It is also interesting how your use of word passion here connects to the discussion in other thread. The passion expressed in the quote does not seem very love-based to me.

The quote, "If you don’t succeed it is because you are either too lazy or stupid…"

The way that I use it, passion is a state of mind where the adrenalin is flowing high… the confidence is soaring… and the predominant feeling is that one has the tiger by the tail… and can do anything he wants with it…

It can be applied to love… but love being only one of the multitude of emotion it can be applied too…

As an example… an athlete can play with passion… however, most of the time, there will be no love involved… just a passionate desire to win…

I believe that the fundamental way in which we differ is that you take mostly an intellectual approach to motivation… whereas I, being a Robbins’ advocate and follower, prioritize an emotional approach… Still, I greatly enjoy our exchanges of views and opinions… and thank you for it...

.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by Shamou

If by “knowledge and skill” you mean teaching the philosophical mindset that says, “If you know how… and if you are determined enough… you can achieve anything that you want…” I understand, if not… I am complete lost in your rhetoric…

Yes, I mean that, with putting more emphasis on "know how" rather then on "determined enough". Being "determined enough" is hard to quantify and is usually assessed in retrospect.

The operative word here would be, “perceived” effort… because I know of no one who has achieved great things without great efforts… and persistence… However, maybe you could give me some examples…

Let me put it this way. You are right that things have to be done. And to achieve a useful result, they have to be done in a real world. At the very least they have to be manifested.
However I think that there is a major difference between skilled and unskilled efforts.
It comes down to the proverbial "sharpening the axe". With enough effort the tree would be cut. And if we motivate a person he will work harder with the same blunt axe. In fact with good enough motivation his mind will be so clouded with adrenalin, that he won't notice any alternatives.
I think the better solution will be to teach the cutter to sharpen an axe or even to go and buy a chainsaw. And then motivate him. The overall efficiency will be much higher. Mathematically speaking:

Motivation X Skill = Result not Motivation + Skill = Result

If one multiple is small another will have to be HUGE to provide the same result.

So why would anyone do it otherwise? Why provide motivation without instruction or vice versa?

Now I'll give you the real life example from my experience. When I was a kid I wanted to draw. But I lacked talent. Knowing that I practiced drawing on my own. I was motivated. I was persistent. I drew thousands of sketches that could only impress my relatives. After about 5 years of efforts I gave up. I even formed a belief that I can't draw. In three more years I came across a book by Betty Edwards "Drawing on the Right Side of the Brain". It claims that you can learn to draw in a few hours and a few exercises. With some NLP magic I sped things up a bit and drew my first recognizable portrait in less then an hour.
Now, don't know about others, but I consider my early efforts a complete waste of time. Would additional motivation have helped me. I doubt it.
Taking classes? Very likely. It wouldn't be as fast as Edwards technique, but I could improve greatly over the same 5 years.

My efforts before the book and after are completely different. Before they were taking me nowhere. Now they improve my skill with every drawing. And now, the time spent drawing does not feel "hard". Hard in a sense of exhausting activity that would burn me out in the long run.

With above explanation, I hope you would agree, that a fair share of extraordinary people put in skilled effort, not the useless unskilled "hard work".
I'll name a few - Einstein, Tesla, Mendeleev, Tolstoy, Mozart... most of the people who can be called geniuses were able to transcend persistence with the power of insight. Which reminds me of a debate between Tesla and Edison.

Edison is known for his "1% inspiration and 99% perspiration" definition of genius. However, his arch rival Tesla attributed his inventions to an abnormally vivid imagination and multiple insights. Both are regarded as geniuses of their time and it is difficult to tell who was more successful.

Some time ago I came across a book on creativity. It outlined the stages of the act of invention.

- Collecting information
- "Simmer" stage, when ideas are "cooked" in subconscious mind.
- Insight
- Writing down

The first and the last stages are labor-intensive. But the most value is produced during the second and third stages, which are perceived as easy both to external observer and to the thinker. You can't apply conscious effort to speed these stages up. In fact, relaxing and letting the subconscious to do the work in the background is known to produce better results.

Then, when the insight has already happened, there is a task of putting the result on paper. It takes time, but it is not particularly hard.

So, in the sense explained above I think that persistence and motivation alone are not enough for truly exceptional results. The inefficiency of such approach will cause people who rely on it to fall behind those who use the power of insight and support it with persistence and motivation.

I must admit that I find it extremely hard to have any compassion for anyone who is not willing to do the things necessary to succeed in life…

If someone comes to me with a button missing on his shirt… I will gladly help that person to sew the button on… but if someone comes to me with a button and want me to attach a shirt to it… that person will get the frigid shoulder very fast… I have no empathy or sympathy for slackers…

How do you tell slackers from thinkers during the stages 2 and 3 of the creative process, described above?

The way that I use it, passion is a state of mind where the adrenalin is flowing high… the confidence is soaring… and the predominant feeling is that one has the tiger by the tail… and can do anything he wants with it…

It can be applied to love… but love being only one of the multitude of emotion it can be applied too…

I agree with that, I was just noting the parallels with a discussion in another thread about passion.

I believe that the fundamental way in which we differ is that you take mostly an intellectual approach to motivation… whereas I, being a Robbins’ advocate and follower, prioritize an emotional approach… Still, I greatly enjoy our exchanges of views and opinions… and thank you for it...

Yes, we do disagree, but the conversation is stimulating.

[finandom]

Originally Posted by Freelancer

Not really, its often a ingrained habit. They habitually go into inaction while feeling bad about it at the same time. You might be extremely motivated to take action but end up sitting on your butt thinking of excuses.

I believe this happens because we have a "choice". I think the results will be different if we have no choice but have to continue and achieve our goal.

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Ilya
Now I'll give you the real life example from my experience. When I was a kid I wanted to draw. But I lacked talent. Knowing that I practiced drawing on my own. I was motivated.

As usual, good post…

I think that you are being a bit too liberal with the word, “motivate.”

If I was trying to motivate some Chiropractors (to make more money) I would take it for granted they would go somewhere else to get the basic and advanced training in their trade… that would not be the business of the motivator…

Also, if an artist came to me to be motivated to draw better and become a world renown artist… I would not talk about drawing techniques… I would motivate him to go around the world and visit art galleries… talk to grand masters… get some personal living experience that would stretch his mind to the limit… but, forget the drawing techniques… that’s not my job… or the purpose of motivation...

.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by Shamou

If I was trying to motivate some Chiropractors (to make more money) I would take it for granted they would go somewhere else to get the basic and advanced training in their trade… that would not be the business of the motivator…

Wait a minute. That's exactly what I'm talking about. Making money and fixing someone's back (forgive me this oversimplification of chiropractor's profession) are two different skills. The fact that you get paid for your work has little to do with how wealthy you are. Wealth building has little to do with any profession for that matter. Otherwise, Forbes list would be dominated by accountants.
Wealth building is about managing you income and spending, understanding assets and liabilities, marketing in a broadest sense and so on. These are the things a chiropractor may know nothing about and still be helpful for patients.
And saying you are lazy or stupid to such chiropractor can send him thousand different ways, many of which can be harmful. For example, self-employed chiropractor can fall into a trap of "working harder", putting in more hours of work per day and eventually burning himself out. A more useful approach would be to find a niche, to double prices, which would lead to fewer high paying customers, or to start a business, or to invest the income in something, all of which would require additional skills that have nothing to do with chiropractic training.

While providing these skills is not motivators' job, there has to be someone, who would provide this guidance and training. Preferably before or soon after the act of motivation. At least mentioning the necessity of such training should be the job of motivator.

Also, if an artist came to me to be motivated to draw better and become a world renown artist… I would not talk about drawing techniques… I would motivate him to go around the world and visit art galleries… talk to grand masters… get some personal living experience that would stretch his mind to the limit… but, forget the drawing techniques… that’s not my job… or the purpose of motivation...

Exactly. Notice that you listed the activities that would in fact increase the artist's knowledge. This is how artists learn - through different forms of apprenticeship. This is a valid and useful advice. Telling him that he is either lazy or stupid if he is not famous would be less useful. Don't you think?

[Shamou]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Telling him that he is either lazy or stupid if he is not famous would be less useful. Don't you think?

Some people will respond to gentle prodding... some... will react to tough love...

Every time I got kick in the arse... I invariably moved ahead... if you lavish me with praise... I will sit on my butt and wallow in pride and vanity...

I like a person who will not be condescending with me... and who will push me to the limit... that, I believe is the difference between a champion and a "could-have-been..."

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[kaushal1]

This view may be correct but not 100% as there are some people in that world who are really hard working but even then they are not able to earn much and in such cases it may be called that there may be lack of guidance for them in world.Such people can not be called stupid.Luck also matters.