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07-19-2007, 10:17 PM
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 Goal Setting is not efficient
Now that I grabbed your attention, let's discuss it.  As of lately, I'm beggining to think that goal-setting is not an actual system to follow, to die-and-live for. Think of a bicycle: when you wanted to learn how to ride one as a kid, you probably used some extra-wheels so that you wouldn't fall, right? Or, look at the PUA community: techniques, methods and all the alikes are, as some guys put it, for you to learn how to point in the right direction. Thing is, you must learn to ride a bike without extra-wheels. You need to be with a women without a battle plan. Isn't goal setting the same? I look at the really successful people, and they don't set goals. They are very natural about. Do you think Bill Gates sat down writing pages and pages, journaling about his purpose and doing montly breakdowns of a master-plan to be the richest guy in the world? Now, I don't know if he actually did that ( ) but I bet he didn't. He just knew what he wanted, and went for it, at 100%. Think of other really successful people (I know that the term is relative, so use high-achievers instead, if you like). Rock artists, writers, enterpreneurs, actors.Yes, you can say that setting goals will bring you success. Just look at Steve. Now that's a guy who *really* plans stuff out and he is very successful. But a flawed system may still bring results. I'm starting to see what you could call a Natural method of achieving. You don't set goals, you don't spend a big portion of your time pondering on how you will behave and what you will do. That stuff is already ingrained in your being. I, for one, can say that goal setting has only hindered my progress so far. Before discovering goal-setting I'd just go for stuff. Now, I think in plans, in goals, not in what I actually want. Goal setting feels really artificial for me. I know for a fact that there are highly achieving people out there, actors, famous people, wealthy guys, 'just happy' people who don't bother about nothing of this, and get what we plan. It's like, we plan, they get what we plan. They are Natural about it. Also, it may be a personality question - some people tend to work well with organized thoughts, others don't. Think of the artistic mess some musicians yeld. A Will Smith interview really hit a chord on me. He just lives some basic principles, and look at the results. 99,99% of all goal-setters can't brag about having all that success. Perhaps there's another step, more powerful than goal setting. A more natural way of achieving. Discuss.      |
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07-19-2007, 10:32 PM
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I dont know either if bill gates writes down goals or not, but what you said summarized what goal setting is all about, you said "He (bill gates) just knew what he wanted and went for it, at 100%)." This is the point in goal setting, to get lazy people to "know what they want, and go for it". Sure some people like maybe bill gates don't need to set goals to know what they want and go for it, but most people need otherwise they will get distracted.
__________________ All that matters is results. |
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07-19-2007, 10:54 PM
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Actually, what Xin says resonates with me very much... I've never been able to understand guidelines, let alone rules. I don't take notes in class, nor do I study for tests or check the books for much of my homework. At jobs, I ask how something is done, then I do it until I make a mistake. I don't plan any of this. Things just come to me. I've always done Intention manifestation, but it's never required such careful rationalization. Intuitive faith is what has gotten me to the point of incredible happiness I often float on. It's because I'm free of interest in any form of power that I can take such full advantage of it. Anyone here who watches American Beauty will know that it's the wife who is demonstrating the mentality around Personal Development. "I will sell this house today." She tries, and doesn't, because she has no real belief in what she's doing. On the other hand, Lester becomes a total slob, but dies happy a year later. Who is the better-developed person? The truth is, I'd rather be Lester than the wife. ~ David
__________________ My Website is a simple idea: Every time I learn a life lesson, Every time I see a vision of positive possibility and love for the world, Every time I get a radical idea for something special, I will put it up here.  Enjoy! P.S.: Please click the ads just a bit... |
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07-20-2007, 01:25 AM
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Xin! I think that you bought the biggest farce there is among successful people... I have achieved some success and I know a lot of people who also have achieved a lot more than I... and one of the things that we all do is to make believe that it all came easy... we were the chosen ones and success was bestowed on us by pure luck or accident... No bigger lie was ever told... if you take the time to read biographies... you will find out that there is no such thing as success without meticulous planning and a great deal of dedication and work... Success is a science... and every science has laws and rules... and if you want to master that science... you have to learn the rules and respect the laws inherent to that science... Life is a journey... and if you start that journey not knowing where you want to go... you'll end up nowhere... and with nothing... and, that, you can take to the bank... . |
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07-20-2007, 03:02 AM
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07-20-2007, 12:33 PM
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I can see how a great deal of people don't really know what they want. I guess goal-setting may help them in the beggining. But I don't think it's essential. Goal-setting doesn't tell you who you are, nor who should you be. It's just what you think you'd like to have/be. As for planning, it's tricky. I think that planning DOES help. Know where you want to go, from where you are starting, and what you have to do. Most people become aware of all of this through goal-setting. In my opinion, it is not necessary. You just need clarity. Perhaps goal-setting is just treatment for symptoms. The true core of achieving is in character - and maybe that's where our focus should be. Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but having journals, schedules, scoreboards, goal sheets, doesn't seem to help me that much. I know what I want, going through all this stuff just makes what I want seem mechanical and stiff. For one, in months of goal setting, I never made a piece of worth. Once, I said 'Enough' and stopped setting art goals for some time. I created what is, so far, my best work. Quote:
Don't take it personally, goal-setters. If it works for you, great. I'm just trying to upgrade myself. |
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07-20-2007, 01:00 PM
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You might want to look at whether your methods are really workin' for ya. I never set concrete goals until recently... when I had something definite to work towards. I'm guessing there are times when it works to move forward, following your gut, and also when it works to plan things a bit more. |
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07-20-2007, 04:11 PM
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The primary objective of setting and achieving goals and objectives is to become the type of person who can do the things that have to be done in order to achieve those goals and objectives… So, in that sense… you are not directly working on achieving goals but on building a better and more effective you… . |
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07-20-2007, 05:42 PM
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If you set goals with achieving your life's purpose in mind, it's a totally different experience than if you're just picking out some things to do because they sound good or worked for someone else.
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07-20-2007, 06:53 PM
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Isn't building a better character in itself a goal?
__________________ I am always open for feedback on my posts. If your feedback would go offtopic feel free to send me a Personal Message. My posts generally don't contain medical or legal advice, if you have a problem seek the opinion of an expert Talking about this in terms of “bad news” or “bad judgment by business leaders” seems archaic. It’s like describing World War One as “a serious diplomatic concern.” Bruce Sterling about the financial crisis. |
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07-20-2007, 08:26 PM
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Xin, you may want to look at a book called Goal-Free Living. It talks a lot about how pursuing narrow goals is a lot like putting blinders on. The metaphor in the book is having a compass - a la Bill Gates "knowing what he wants" - instead of a roadmap - having each step planned down to the minute.
__________________ Make 2009 Great by Traveling By Your Inner Compass. Never the Same River Twice, because change happens. |
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07-21-2007, 03:00 AM
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I've never been a big believer in setting goals. Instead I choose directions in which I want to travel and ensure that I am always taking steps in that direction. This is not to say that I don't plan. The planning is one of the many steps I need to take in any direction. I feel achievement is too unpredictable to set firm goals, it is very rare that you would arrive exactly at the target at exactly the right time. If you achieve more than you planned it gives you an excuse to sit back when you could always be taking another step. If you are behind where you want to be it can give you a sense of hopelessness or despair which can affect your productivity. I follow my travel directions, I know if I am taking big enough steps in those directions or not. |
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07-23-2007, 06:45 PM
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| Goal setting is not efficient -
I read with interest the comments that Xin has raised. It brings me to a question that I have been wondering about for some time. Is it possible to "relax into" achieving a goal? I suspect that one of the greatest obstacles I have to overcome is to prevent myself from reaching for a goal without stressing myself. It seems that if I work too hard or concentrate on it too much I tie myself up with stress and achieve very little or nothing in spite of my efforts. On one hand, it takes hard work to reach a goal. But still, I have to admit that there may be something to what Xin has to say. By "relaxing into" I mean to strive to achieve a goal in a relaxed manner. How can one do this without getting off track? |
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07-23-2007, 10:20 PM
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Most super achiever never work... they play... they are never stressed... they are excited... nothing that they do is hard... it's compelling... wild horses could not tear them away from pursuing those goals... So, it all comes down to your point of view... life and work can be hell.. it can be fun... it can be war... it can be surfing on a cloud... depends on how you look at it... You want to experience something different from what you see all around you... you must travel on a different path... Pursuing and achieving goals should be fun... if it's not... drop it... it's not worth it... . |
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07-24-2007, 01:22 AM
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I think that while your method of accomplishing things (e.g. goals) may work for you and a select few other people, I think setting goals helps out tremendously with the majority of people. I can only speak for myself, but goal setting gives me direction. Without having long-term goals, and then breaking them down into smaller more attainable goals, I would be forever bouncing around ideas or going for things and changing my mind without knowing it. After 10 years I would have no way to see if I have progressed, and I wouldn't really know what I wanted to begin with. Goal setting gives me something to work towards, allows me to check the progress of where I'm at with the things I want to accomplish in life, and once again, gives me direction and keeps me on a steady path. Like I said, goal setting may not be for everyone, as in your case. But I think it is a vital tool for many people, including myself. |
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07-24-2007, 01:42 PM
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Xin, your first post is fresh ant thought provoking. As I stated many times on this forum, I believe that all that we do consists of skills that can be consciously improved. And goal-setting is one such skill. Now, as with other skills (PUA example is very good) there are naturals and there are learners. Naturals were born or brought up with the good enough level of skill. Some guys are good with women. They were socially active, played sports, had a lot of experience communicating with girls during childhood and reached high-school with good enough skills to get attention from females. If you ask them how they do it, they would produce the huge pile of BS. Because they have no idea. They are not conscious about it. Now, during my childhood I was laying on a couch and reading books. Lot's of books. By the time I reached high-school, I was hopeless with women. I didn't damage my eyesight, otherwise I would be a classic case of spectacle-wearing nerd hugging a book instead of a girlfriend. And I had to learn from PUAs, go to seminars to improve my skills. I am a learner. Now as any learner I had to be very conscious of the process while I practiced. It was awkward to me, and it was awkward for early victims of my unskilled advances. Time went on and by the time I've met my future wife I had enough skill to outplay any competition. And you know what, I did it my own way, without using any techniques. I was improvising But, as I was conscious while learning, I can tell what exactly I was doing. And it would be useful for other people. The same is with goal setting. Most successful people are naturals in goal-setting. But it is very hard to learn from them. A person with good modeling skills can figure out what's going on after talking to many naturals. This is how SMART and other goal-setting models were created. Using them "as is" might not be very effective, but will lead to skill development. And after some time one can discover that he does his own version of goal-setting very naturally and effectively. In this sense, goal-setting as a collection of techniques does not work as intended. Also, there is a myth that goal-setting is equal to planning. It does not work like this. For large enough goals, you are setting a direction without knowing how to get there. So you are not laying the route, but setting up a target to steer to eventually. I'm sure that neither Bill Gates, nor Steve Jobs, nor Google founders set the SMART goals to get to the point where they are now. At most they set the general direction to what they want to do.
__________________ Ilya. |
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07-25-2007, 06:07 AM
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From what everyone's said I think we can all agree that the act of goal setting is not the problem, but the way in which it's done and the reasons for doing it. I think the core of this discussion is that to be effective, goal setting (and the process of achieving the goal) should come naturally, effortlessly, and in this way appears to remove the need for precision planning. That's why Tom, and many other people, don't get anywhere when they get worked up about the goals they set for themselves. It becomes a chore, rather than something enjoyable and invigorating, as Shamou pointed out. As Silicon Toad said, just pointing yourself in the right direction can often be enough. Xin, you've mentioned character, and alluded to self-awareness. Kaspian pointed out that the experience of setting goals is totally different when in line with your life's purpose. I think it's that directed passion, fueled by self-awareness and quality of character, that makes the experience so different. So in summary I think what we're saying is that if you are passionate enough, and have a clear destination in mind, you don't need to set rigid goals which precisely plan out every step. But there is generally some element of planning involved, and often a great deal of effort (especially for things that are truly worthwhile), however with clarity of purpose and fueled by passion you can set and execute those plans, and reach those goals, all without stress, enjoying every moment. (well, almost every moment) This is similar to what I said on my blog. Explicit goal setting can be helpful, but is not necessary, and passion is far more important. What I didn't get into is the ways in which precision goal setting can be helpful. Probably because I don't have much need for it. But I can imagine that someone who is extremely busy, and who has a lot of different activities to perform, and many different items to keep track of, would find it very difficult to get enough done without some form of precision planning, no matter how passionate they are. A vital tool for some... *nod to x3r0bug*
__________________ Take a stroll down The Winding Path and let me know what you think of the scenery. |
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07-25-2007, 11:37 AM
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| Another angle on goal setting
Mark, much of what you said makes sense. I have for most of the time over the years stressed about goals, & goal lists. Even recently; as soon as i set something up as a goal, it felt like a chore, and was experienced as a future oriented way of being. "to do", which feels so unnatural to me. I am beginning to think of goals as another way of saying intention, or setting goals is another way of saying Setting the intent (or intentions) within oneself. Like a homing device is being set, except its totally neurological as a "this is what’s happening" state of being which assists one in carrying out sequentially all that is required until it has been completed. Perhaps someone from an NLP background can confirm this; I believe it differs for each human being the way information is processed for understanding. The balance of each sense used for taking in information & processing, differs for each individual. Some people are more visual, others more kinesthetic, auditory, Left brain logic, right brain emotional, .. This is just stating what has already been said in the posts here already, and I am just extending when I say that goal setting in how it is generally understood to be, can be different for different people; Some people need to write it out and have their written list. Perhaps another needs to say it to make it more effective because of being more auditory oriented. (they use more of the hearing sense). Perhaps others just need to feel their way into it as an intent rather than intellectualize it into a list. Only in past 3 years I have come to recognize that visuals is one of my predominant sensors for processing information. I realized why It was I did exceptionally well at school where the learning was visually oriented, so . It was not until my late thirties that I realized why that visual was one of my predominant senses for processing, learning, & understanding after I looked at the thread of where I learnt most effectively up till that point. Of course, most people see, but I am referring to the predominant use for assimilating, relating, and processing. When I was a teenager, I had huge posters on my wall. Mostly sports cars, but I had a windsurfing picture and some other things. I i use to look at them daily and appreciate and feel good about what i saw, it generated a desire within me. I did not understand any of this at the time. It was effectively a focusing and goal setting tool. I did not have money to buy a Porsche or some of the other types of cars when I first started working, but I did buy a sporty vehicle that was within reach, and many years later I realized that the dashboard of one of my favorite car posters looked very similar to the dashboard of the car I bought. (I was implying more along the lines of LOA in sharing the dashboard similarity) I also ended up windsurfing. Would I still have windsurfed if I had not have adored the picture. So I think because of the difference in predominating use of particular senses by each individual, can be why some goal setters may not be understood, seen, heard, felt, known (have I left something out here) as goal setters.
__________________ http://www.flickr.com/photos/7335848...7601168933599/ These are some images that came about as a manifestation of my asking to do something i love. (click thumbnails to see larger picture) |
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07-27-2007, 08:34 AM
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If you dig into Stephen Shapiro's book (Goal Free Living) you'll find him grappling with where goal setting fits into the "goal less equation". His blog also comments on goal setting from time to time. Another poster mentioned Bill Gates - that guy who wrote "The Road Ahead" ;-) I doubt if he had set goals to take windows (and Microsoft) from the early 3.x stuff I saw around 1989 to where it is now...but I bet he had a vision of moving along this winding path as it unfolded and "scenery" came into view. Actually, he probably sprinted along those stretches!! |
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07-27-2007, 08:52 AM
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| hi
This article offer practical suggestion. One should never set any particular goal for oneself and should always keep some alternative options for oneself. No doubt planning is must in life but should be prepared to face any distraction in planning.
__________________ Uk home loans **************** and mortgage company |
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09-17-2007, 10:34 AM
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I've been using goal-setting on and off - this thread came as a result of one of my off months. Thruth be told, everytime I used goal-setting and actually wrote stuff down, I got more busy with planning than with acting. Then I'd throw it all out the window and experience a desorganized period of productivity. Yet, some time ago I went through a experience that just made me realize that I MUST step up my game. Yet, since the improvement I saw as ABSOLUTELY FUNDAMENTAL was a damn complex thing, encompassing different areas and aspects of my mife, I found myself resorting to goal-setting again. This time, it seems to be working. Why? As Kaspian said, setting goal with a burning purpose is different than just 'because it sounds good.' I wouldn't call my motivation a purpose, but it sure as hell is a damn kick-in-the-butt to get to work. So far, so good. |
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09-22-2007, 07:30 PM
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Then you have the bigger goals. Raise your kids right, get them to college (and kiss that retirement goodbye ), but those are things that can't be measured in days, or weeks, or even years, but things that need to be re-enforced on a daily basis.Having goals to achieve is a very important part about furthering yourself as a person and as a viable member of society. Just sitting stagnant and letting life take you where it will is something I strongly disagree with. Just my plugged nickel's worth. v
__________________ "Ask Bill why the string in function 9 is terminated by a dollar sign. Ask him, because he can't answer. Only I know that". - Gary Kildall MCSA MCP |
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09-23-2007, 10:04 PM
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Hi, Im no expert, but I see goal setting as an excellent way to create and maintain motivation as well as maximize time spent moving along which directions I choose to go in with life. Using even a loose outline of short and long term goals can create discipline, prioritized action, constant growth in your chosen field as well as a way to chart your progress over time. I think that without at least some of that structure it's far too easy for me to lose focus and tread water without actually going anywhere, acheiving anything or showing any signs of growth. To me, this is a way to progress while still stopping to smell the roses. Hope that makes sense.. |
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09-23-2007, 10:26 PM
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for me it's purely for memory and focus. i write things down just so i can stay focused on what i have to do, and so i can remember it. otherwise i'll just play video games or something useless. there are some natural things, like i'll make my music no matter what, but once i wrote down "practice scales" because it helped me get the scales engrained in my memory once i had practiced them for about a week. |
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09-24-2007, 08:53 PM
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Bottom line is many people do find great success without setting goals. But they do need commitment and passion (which isn’t the same thing). Going back to Xin's original post in this thread – Bill Gates and Will Smith could have given up without some form of inner drive and belief that this was their calling. If clear goal setting works for you, great. Likewise goals may help to give you a loose structure that helps, even if you don’t follow the goals religiously. But I do think we should be too prescriptive of this as a technique that everyone should adopt. In my opinion the hard thing for most of us is finding a path we can pursue with commitment and passion. Setting goals to achieve things in fields we’re not willing to put the effort into is where most come unstuck.
__________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Rogers Free ebook "Self Esteem Exercises" Twitter page Live life 365 days a year; just try missing one! |
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09-25-2007, 02:58 AM
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Again, though, I can't imagine a life without goals, just letting life carry where it will. Too hippie-esque by far. One needs structure of some sort, even if that goal is to make the mortgage, or to back up, get the house. Humans actually do thrive on competition, and the higher the bar you set for yourself, you find that you are actually quite more able than you may have thought you were. As they say, if at first you don't succeed, so much for sky-diving.
__________________ "Ask Bill why the string in function 9 is terminated by a dollar sign. Ask him, because he can't answer. Only I know that". - Gary Kildall MCSA MCP |
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09-25-2007, 06:46 AM
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| Own Goals
I thought goal setting was good until I started on an opportunistic phase of my life. I really think that when we put so much structure in our lives we miss out on many things. Whilst I have no problem in living up to good life values goals should be consigned to where they should be that is on a sports field. I can say from experience that in the last ten years I have totally allowed myself to be opportunistic with great results. I have travelled the world working in countries I would never have dreamed of or planned doing as I took opportunities when the arose. It is also taking a risk in life........ lets not use goals to take the fun out of living. By all means aspire to something like a life value..... We tend to surround ourslves with so much that tries to justify what we are doing with our lives. I have learnt at my time of life the value of living it. |
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09-25-2007, 11:19 AM
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| Do you know what goal setting is good for?
Goal setting is good for acheiving goals. No less, no more. But there is more to life than acheiving goals. Sometimes you just don't care about a particular outcome. Sometimes being spontaneous and enjoying the experience is the whole point of doing something. As for the question of whether Bill Gates sets goals: Of-course he does. It just comes so naturally for him, that he doesn't feel any need to make a fuss about it. Just like we don't make a fuss of going to the bathroom or brushing our teeth. Once it becomes habit, you simply stop paying attention to it. |
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09-25-2007, 07:26 PM
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__________________ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ David Rogers Free ebook "Self Esteem Exercises" Twitter page Live life 365 days a year; just try missing one! |
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09-26-2007, 02:46 AM
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__________________ "Ask Bill why the string in function 9 is terminated by a dollar sign. Ask him, because he can't answer. Only I know that". - Gary Kildall MCSA MCP |
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