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07-19-2007, 09:17 PM
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 Goal Setting is not efficient Now that I grabbed your attention, let's discuss it.  As of lately, I'm beggining to think that goal-setting is not an actual system to follow, to die-and-live for. Think of a bicycle: when you wanted to learn how to ride one as a kid, you probably used some extra-wheels so that you wouldn't fall, right? Or, look at the PUA community: techniques, methods and all the alikes are, as some guys put it, for you to learn how to point in the right direction. Thing is, you must learn to ride a bike without extra-wheels. You need to be with a women without a battle plan. Isn't goal setting the same? I look at the really successful people, and they don't set goals. They are very natural about. Do you think Bill Gates sat down writing pages and pages, journaling about his purpose and doing montly breakdowns of a master-plan to be the richest guy in the world? Now, I don't know if he actually did that ( ) but I bet he didn't. He just knew what he wanted, and went for it, at 100%. Think of other really successful people (I know that the term is relative, so use high-achievers instead, if you like). Rock artists, writers, enterpreneurs, actors.Yes, you can say that setting goals will bring you success. Just look at Steve. Now that's a guy who *really* plans stuff out and he is very successful. But a flawed system may still bring results. I'm starting to see what you could call a Natural method of achieving. You don't set goals, you don't spend a big portion of your time pondering on how you will behave and what you will do. That stuff is already ingrained in your being. I, for one, can say that goal setting has only hindered my progress so far. Before discovering goal-setting I'd just go for stuff. Now, I think in plans, in goals, not in what I actually want. Goal setting feels really artificial for me. I know for a fact that there are highly achieving people out there, actors, famous people, wealthy guys, 'just happy' people who don't bother about nothing of this, and get what we plan. It's like, we plan, they get what we plan. They are Natural about it. Also, it may be a personality question - some people tend to work well with organized thoughts, others don't. Think of the artistic mess some musicians yeld. A Will Smith interview really hit a chord on me. He just lives some basic principles, and look at the results. 99,99% of all goal-setters can't brag about having all that success. Perhaps there's another step, more powerful than goal setting. A more natural way of achieving. Discuss.      |
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07-19-2007, 09:32 PM
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I dont know either if bill gates writes down goals or not, but what you said summarized what goal setting is all about, you said "He (bill gates) just knew what he wanted and went for it, at 100%)." This is the point in goal setting, to get lazy people to "know what they want, and go for it". Sure some people like maybe bill gates don't need to set goals to know what they want and go for it, but most people need otherwise they will get distracted.
__________________ All that matters is results. |
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07-19-2007, 09:54 PM
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| Actually, what Xin says resonates with me very much... I've never been able to understand guidelines, let alone rules. I don't take notes in class, nor do I study for tests or check the books for much of my homework. At jobs, I ask how something is done, then I do it until I make a mistake. I don't plan any of this. Things just come to me. I've always done Intention manifestation, but it's never required such careful rationalization. Intuitive faith is what has gotten me to the point of incredible happiness I often float on. It's because I'm free of interest in any form of power that I can take such full advantage of it. Anyone here who watches American Beauty will know that it's the wife who is demonstrating the mentality around Personal Development. "I will sell this house today." She tries, and doesn't, because she has no real belief in what she's doing. On the other hand, Lester becomes a total slob, but dies happy a year later. Who is the better-developed person? The truth is, I'd rather be Lester than the wife. ~ David
__________________ My Website is a simple idea: Every time I learn a life lesson, Every time I see a vision of positive possibility and love for the world, Every time I get a radical idea for something special, I will put it up here.  Enjoy! P.S.: Please click the ads just a bit... |
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07-20-2007, 12:25 AM
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| Xin! I think that you bought the biggest farce there is among successful people... I have achieved some success and I know a lot of people who also have achieved a lot more than I... and one of the things that we all do is to make believe that it all came easy... we were the chosen ones and success was bestowed on us by pure luck or accident... No bigger lie was ever told... if you take the time to read biographies... you will find out that there is no such thing as success without meticulous planning and a great deal of dedication and work... Success is a science... and every science has laws and rules... and if you want to master that science... you have to learn the rules and respect the laws inherent to that science... Life is a journey... and if you start that journey not knowing where you want to go... you'll end up nowhere... and with nothing... and, that, you can take to the bank... . |
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07-20-2007, 02:02 AM
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07-20-2007, 11:33 AM
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I can see how a great deal of people don't really know what they want. I guess goal-setting may help them in the beggining. But I don't think it's essential. Goal-setting doesn't tell you who you are, nor who should you be. It's just what you think you'd like to have/be. As for planning, it's tricky. I think that planning DOES help. Know where you want to go, from where you are starting, and what you have to do. Most people become aware of all of this through goal-setting. In my opinion, it is not necessary. You just need clarity. Perhaps goal-setting is just treatment for symptoms. The true core of achieving is in character - and maybe that's where our focus should be. Maybe it's just me, I don't know, but having journals, schedules, scoreboards, goal sheets, doesn't seem to help me that much. I know what I want, going through all this stuff just makes what I want seem mechanical and stiff. For one, in months of goal setting, I never made a piece of worth. Once, I said 'Enough' and stopped setting art goals for some time. I created what is, so far, my best work. Quote:
Don't take it personally, goal-setters. If it works for you, great. I'm just trying to upgrade myself. |
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07-20-2007, 12:00 PM
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You might want to look at whether your methods are really workin' for ya. I never set concrete goals until recently... when I had something definite to work towards. I'm guessing there are times when it works to move forward, following your gut, and also when it works to plan things a bit more. |
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07-20-2007, 03:11 PM
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The primary objective of setting and achieving goals and objectives is to become the type of person who can do the things that have to be done in order to achieve those goals and objectives… So, in that sense… you are not directly working on achieving goals but on building a better and more effective you… . |
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07-20-2007, 04:42 PM
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| If you set goals with achieving your life's purpose in mind, it's a totally different experience than if you're just picking out some things to do because they sound good or worked for someone else. |
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07-20-2007, 05:53 PM
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Isn't building a better character in itself a goal?
__________________ I am always open for feedback on my posts. That might focused on the argument at hand or on my writing style. If your feedback would go offtopic feel free to send me a Personal Message. I don't believe in Beliefs. |
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07-20-2007, 07:26 PM
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| Xin, you may want to look at a book called Goal-Free Living. It talks a lot about how pursuing narrow goals is a lot like putting blinders on. The metaphor in the book is having a compass - a la Bill Gates "knowing what he wants" - instead of a roadmap - having each step planned down to the minute.
__________________ Don't click this link, unless you want to learn to make lasting changes! Never the Same River Twice, because change happens. |
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07-21-2007, 02:00 AM
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| I've never been a big believer in setting goals. Instead I choose directions in which I want to travel and ensure that I am always taking steps in that direction. This is not to say that I don't plan. The planning is one of the many steps I need to take in any direction. I feel achievement is too unpredictable to set firm goals, it is very rare that you would arrive exactly at the target at exactly the right time. If you achieve more than you planned it gives you an excuse to sit back when you could always be taking another step. If you are behind where you want to be it can give you a sense of hopelessness or despair which can affect your productivity. I follow my travel directions, I know if I am taking big enough steps in those directions or not. |
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07-23-2007, 05:45 PM
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| Goal setting is not efficient - I read with interest the comments that Xin has raised. It brings me to a question that I have been wondering about for some time. Is it possible to "relax into" achieving a goal? I suspect that one of the greatest obstacles I have to overcome is to prevent myself from reaching for a goal without stressing myself. It seems that if I work too hard or concentrate on it too much I tie myself up with stress and achieve very little or nothing in spite of my efforts. On one hand, it takes hard work to reach a goal. But still, I have to admit that there may be something to what Xin has to say. By "relaxing into" I mean to strive to achieve a goal in a relaxed manner. How can one do this without getting off track? |
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07-23-2007, 09:20 PM
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Most super achiever never work... they play... they are never stressed... they are excited... nothing that they do is hard... it's compelling... wild horses could not tear them away from pursuing those goals... So, it all comes down to your point of view... life and work can be hell.. it can be fun... it can be war... it can be surfing on a cloud... depends on how you look at it... You want to experience something different from what you see all around you... you must travel on a different path... Pursuing and achieving goals should be fun... if it's not... drop it... it's not worth it... . |
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07-24-2007, 12:22 AM
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| I think that while your method of accomplishing things (e.g. goals) may work for you and a select few other people, I think setting goals helps out tremendously with the majority of people. I can only speak for myself, but goal setting gives me direction. Without having long-term goals, and then breaking them down into smaller more attainable goals, I would be forever bouncing around ideas or going for things and changing my mind without knowing it. After 10 years I would have no way to see if I have progressed, and I wouldn't really know what I wanted to begin with. Goal setting gives me something to work towards, allows me to check the progress of where I'm at with the things I want to accomplish in life, and once again, gives me direction and keeps me on a steady path. Like I said, goal setting may not be for everyone, as in your case. But I think it is a vital tool for many people, including myself. |
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07-24-2007, 12:42 PM
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| Xin, your first post is fresh ant thought provoking. As I stated many times on this forum, I believe that all that we do consists of skills that can be consciously improved. And goal-setting is one such skill. Now, as with other skills (PUA example is very good) there are naturals and there are learners. Naturals were born or brought up with the good enough level of skill. Some guys are good with women. They were socially active, played sports, had a lot of experience communicating with girls during childhood and reached high-school with good enough skills to get attention from females. If you ask them how they do it, they would produce the huge pile of BS. Because they have no idea. They are not conscious about it. Now, during my childhood I was laying on a couch and reading books. Lot's of books. By the time I reached high-school, I was hopeless with women. I didn't damage my eyesight, otherwise I would be a classic case of spectacle-wearing nerd hugging a book instead of a girlfriend. And I had to learn from PUAs, go to seminars to improve my skills. I am a learner. Now as any learner I had to be very conscious of the process while I practiced. It was awkward to me, and it was awkward for early victims of my unskilled advances. Time went on and by the time I've met my future wife I had enough skill to outplay any competition. And you know what, I did it my own way, without using any techniques. I was improvising But, as I was conscious while learning, I can tell what exactly I was doing. And it would be useful for other people. The same is with goal setting. Most successful people are naturals in goal-setting. But it is very hard to learn from them. A person with good modeling skills can figure out what's going on after talking to many naturals. This is how SMART and other goal-setting models were created. Using them "as is" might not be very effective, but will lead to skill development. And after some time one can discover that he does his own version of goal-setting very naturally and effectively. In this sense, goal-setting as a collection of techniques does not work as intended. Also, there is a myth that goal-setting is equal to planning. It does not work like this. For large enough goals, you are setting a direction without knowing how to get there. So you are not laying the route, but setting up a target to steer to eventually. I'm sure that neither Bill Gates, nor Steve Jobs, nor Google founders set the SMART goals to get to the point where they are now. At most they set the general direction to what they want to do.
__________________ Ilya. |
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07-25-2007, 05:07 AM
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| From what everyone's said I think we can all agree that the act of goal setting is not the problem, but the way in which it's done and the reasons for doing it. I think the core of this discussion is that to be effective, goal setting (and the process of achieving the goal) should come naturally, effortlessly, and in this way appears to remove the need for precision planning. That's why Tom, and many other people, don't get anywhere when they get worked up about the goals they set for themselves. It becomes a chore, rather than something enjoyable and invigorating, as Shamou pointed out. As Silicon Toad said, just pointing yourself in the right direction can often be enough. Xin, you've mentioned character, and alluded to self-awareness. Kaspian pointed out that the experience of setting goals is totally different when in line with your life's purpose. I think it's that directed passion, fueled by self-awareness and quality of character, that makes the experience so different. So in summary I think what we're saying is that if you are passionate enough, and have a clear destination in mind, you don't need to set rigid goals which precisely plan out every step. But there is generally some element of planning involved, and often a great deal of effort (especially for things that are truly worthwhile), however with clarity of purpose and fueled by passion you can set and execute those plans, and reach those goals, all without stress, enjoying every moment. (well, almost every moment) This is similar to what I said on my blog. Explicit goal setting can be helpful, but is not necessary, and passion is far more important. What I didn't get into is the ways in which precision goal setting can be helpful. Probably because I don't have much need for it. But I can imagine that someone who is extremely busy, and who has a lot of different activities to perform, and many different items to keep track of, would find it very difficult to get enough done without some form of precision planning, no matter how passionate they are. A vital tool for some... *nod to x3r0bug*
__________________ Take a stroll down The Winding Path and let me know what you think of the scenery. |
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07-25-2007, 10:37 AM
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| Another angle on goal setting Mark, much of what you said makes sense. I have for most of the time over the years stressed about goals, & goal lists. Even recently; as soon as i set something up as a goal, it felt like a chore, and was experienced as a future oriented way of being. "to do", which feels so unnatural to me. I am beginning to think of goals as another way of saying intention, or setting goals is another way of saying Setting the intent (or intentions) within oneself. Like a homing device is being set, except its totally neurological as a "this is what’s happening" state of being which assists one in carrying out sequentially all that is required until it has been completed. Perhaps someone from an NLP background can confirm this; I believe it differs for each human being the way information is processed for understanding. The balance of each sense used for taking in information & processing, differs for each individual. Some people are more visual, others more kinesthetic, auditory, Left brain logic, right brain emotional, .. This is just stating what has already been said in the posts here already, and I am just extending when I say that goal setting in how it is generally understood to be, can be different for different people; Some people need to write it out and have their written list. Perhaps another needs to say it to make it more effective because of being more auditory oriented. (they use more of the hearing sense). Perhaps others just need to feel their way into it as an intent rather than intellectualize it into a list. Only in past 3 years I have come to recognize that visuals is one of my predominant sensors for processing information. I realized why It was I did exceptionally well at school where the learning was visually oriented, so . It was not until my late thirties that I realized why that visual was one of my predominant senses for processing, learning, & understanding after I looked at the thread of where I learnt most effectively up till that point. Of course, most people see, but I am referring to the predominant use for assimilating, relating, and processing. When I was a teenager, I had huge posters on my wall. Mostly sports cars, but I had a windsurfing picture and some other things. I i use to look at them daily and appreciate and feel good about what i saw, it generated a desire within me. I did not understand any of this at the time. It was effectively a focusing and goal setting tool. I did not have money to buy a Porsche or some of the other types of cars when I first started working, but I did buy a sporty vehicle that was within reach, and many years later I realized that the dashboard of one of my favorite car posters looked very similar to the dashboard of the car I bought. (I was implying more along the lines of LOA in sharing the dashboard similarity) I also ended up windsurfing. Would I still have windsurfed if I had not have adored the picture. So I think because of the difference in predominating use of particular senses by each individual, can be why some goal setters may not be understood, seen, heard, felt, known (have I left something out here) as goal setters.
__________________ In the midst of a really good chuckle or laugh, I cease to exist, but am totally existing and apart from no thing, as there is no longer "other". I am total existence. |
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07-27-2007, 07:34 AM
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| If you dig into Stephen Shapiro's book (Goal Free Living) you'll find him grappling with where goal setting fits into the "goal less equation". His blog also comments on goal setting from time to time. Another poster mentioned Bill Gates - that guy who wrote "The Road Ahead" ;-) I doubt if he had set goals to take windows (and Microsoft) from the early 3.x stuff I saw around 1989 to where it is now...but I bet he had a vision of moving along this winding path as it unfolded and "scenery" came into view. Actually, he probably sprinted along those stretches!! |
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07-27-2007, 07:52 AM
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| hi This article offer practical suggestion. One should never set any particular goal for oneself and should always keep some alternative options for oneself. No doubt planning is must in life but should be prepared to face any distraction in planning.
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