What are your thoughts on hypnosis?

[Zulu]

Anyone here have any personal experience with hypnosis? There seem to be a fair amount of applications (medical and personal) that have a lot of potential.

Right now, it seems obvious to me that hypnosis works. We've all experienced hypnosis in some way or another (example: driving home without being aware of how you did it). However I'm skeptical about how useful hypnosis might be for making life changes.

Paul

[Matt]

I think hypnosis can be used for personal development. From what I understand it works with the subconscious, so that right there is a big asset. I also believe NLP is related to hypnosis.

[boris]

Hypnosis is quite a tricky thing.

First, not knowing how you got home is not hypnosis. It is schizophrenia :P OK, kidding, but it is just you were too deeply thinking of something, and automatically did the rather known action of driving yourself home. Would you not remember the details if you had an accident? Wouldn't this be the case if you were hypnotized?

Medical purposes are quite limited. Many scammers are offering it widely as a solution to anything: from curing physical and mental illness to penis enlargement (yes, really!).

And one of the most popular application of hypnosis (from movies at least)... remembering your past (or even past lives!). Did you know that the brain is capable of 'inventing' memories? I.e. you didn't lived the thing you remember?

[boris]

NLP does not seem to be related to hypnosis, and by the way it's actual effectiveness is seriously questioned! Yep, I had been fascinated by NLP, read few books, yet...

[Zulu]

Given that hypnosis is all about suggestibility... that means it could work for improving life-style which has huge medical benefits.

Also, there is talk of anesthetic hypnosis which is fascinating.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by boris

NLP does not seem to be related to hypnosis, and by the way it's actual effectiveness is seriously questioned! Yep, I had been fascinated by NLP, read few books, yet...

On NLP And Hypnosis

Hi Boris, NLP is heavily related to hypnosis! NLP (Neuro-Linguistic Programming) was founded by modeling 3 top therapists in the 70s, Virginia Satir, Fritz Perls & Milton Erickson, the father of modern hypnotherapy.

If you've ever read about the Milton model in NLP, those language patterns are the result of modeling the hypnotic inductions of Milton Erickson.

Of course, if you read the layman's books on NLP, they wouldn't go too in-depth into this. But go back to the classics (Patterns of the Hypnotic Techniques of Milton Erickson) or the more 'hardcore' NLP (Beliefs) and you can definitely see it's there.

About Hypnosis

I've been an NLP practitioner for 10 years, an advanced practitioner for about 2, and a coach who's used both NLP & hypnosis on clients for nearly 2 years. I've seen hypnosis up close and personal, enough to find how amazing the unconscious mind is and to debunk many of the common myths surrounding hypnosis.

Hypnosis can be simply defined as a complete focus on a single thing, such that it excludes all else. It is not a magical state where you go away to somewhere else for a while and someone takes control of you.

After all, when you can't find something that's right in front of you, you've just done what we call a negative or positive hallucination; you either filled in the space behind the 'missing' object so you don't see it, or you've put something in 'front' of the object. You just saw or didn't see something that was there!

The driving the car home without realizing how you did it is a common and good example of the same thing. It's akin to unconscious arm levitation when you're in deep trance, it's happening, you're not doing it consciously, so who's doing it? Your unconscious mind.

Could you snap out of it at any time? Of course. All you need to do is to focus and refuse to go into auto-mode. And this is where one of the hypnotic myths needs to get debunked: you cannot be hypnotized against your will.

(But your Will can be a very strange thing )

Because your unconscious mind isn't stupid, it's prime directive is to take care of you, it's been healing cuts for you all your life and keeping your heart pumping. That's why when it's necessary, your unconscious will pull your conscious mind back to waking reality.

If the car's going to get into an accident, you pull back into the now with a adrenaline shot. If a loud noise goes off somewhere, and the hypnotist doesn't negate the feeling of threat, the tranced out person comes back to reality with a jolt.

The best metaphor for trance is watching a movie; you get so caught up in the show that you forget who and where you are, you start feeling as if you're really there and you even feel what the characters are feeling...but nothing is real! Yet, at any point, you can get yourself to stand up, answer the phone, or talk to your friend.

[Zulu]

Hey Alvin, do you think Hypnosis has medical applications? I'm definitely looking to get informed on the subject.

[Steve Roh]

Hi, hypnosis is considered to be an effective tool by the National Institutes of Health and the American Psychological Association, according to this Scientific American article. Like anything else of this nature, there is the potential for abuse in terms of questionable marketing. But that doesn't mean the thing itself is a fraud.

On a related note, I'm doing the Photoreading course right now and it seems there's quite a bit of self-hypnosis involved in the system, as well as NLP.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Zulu

Hey Alvin, do you think Hypnosis has medical applications? I'm definitely looking to get informed on the subject.

Definitely I haven't done much research into this area, but Ernest Rossi is one of the leading lights in this area, you can check out his classic Psychobiology of Mind-Body Healing: New Concepts of Therapeutic Hypnosis.

What I've seen happen in my own experience is symptom negotiation; somebody was having a stomachache and he 'negotiated' with his unconscious not to have the stomachache, by promising his body to eat later if it'd let him do the current task without pain.

[dpvtank]

A year ago or so, I listened to many hypnosis tracks that I got online (mostly from remotehypnosis.com back when the tracks were free), and I definately noticed a difference in the way I conducted myself with frequent listenings.

[kmr321]

Try looking this up Holosync
Theres a guy who did this for two years and dedicated one hour a day listening to this and gave his opinion. He was skeptical from the start but after the 2 years he thinks it has helped him.

Made him calm, very positive and rarely thinks negatively plus some others.

[Ilya]

Originally Posted by Alvin

On NLP And Hypnosis

About Hypnosis

I'd like to support Alvin on his great post.
I'm also NLP master practitioner and my experience with hypnosis was rather extensive. It is nothing special really, if you cut out marketing hype. And you can as easily do self-hypnosis. It can be real handy in the everyday life. I've used self-hypnosis to fall asleep fast and to wake up without an alarm clock. I've used it to reduce long lasting pain. It is great for long waits when you have to kill some time. I never used it consciously on other person without first getting their expressed permission. I've used it to change beliefs and to enter certain states of mind helpful for learning or using certain skills.
There are other ways to achieve the same results, however.
You wouldn't call them hypnosis, because they do not match the classical description. But in a wide sense, any trance-inducing experience is a form of hypnosis.

[Zulu]

Thanks for the link, Alvin.

[Brutha]

Alvin: Hypnosis can be simply defined as a complete focus on a single thing, such that it excludes all else. [...] you cannot be hypnotized against your will.

So I can't do something that makes someone focus completly on it?

I bet if some girl drops her pants in a room full of people a lot of people will focus quite rapidly completly on it and forget what they were thinking before.

The fact is that something like a handshake induction can bring someone who is a total stranger to you into a trance. Sure they will leave it when you tell them things they don't aggre with directly.
But their is room to manuver with Embedded Commands and Metapors outside their awareness and built motivation to do certain things or hallucinate things.

Its a matter of skill.

Try looking this up Holosync

Holosync hasn't much to do with hynosis, it is more like meditation.

You wouldn't call them hypnosis, because they do not match the classical description.

The problem is that the classical picture that people have about hynosis isn't realitstic. It is build in Stage Hynosis.

And their isn't a good definition for hynosis that everyone agrees on.

[Lotus]

Not to add to the scientific discussion, but anecdotally...

When I was 18, I was in a wreck which left me with very bad neck pain. This was right at the end of my senior year in high school, and our school brought in an entertainment hypnotist for an after-grad party. I agreed to be hypnotized because he told me he could relieve the pain for a short time.

Which he did, to my utter amazement. Short hypnosis, simple suggestion (which I have been told was something to the effect of): I'm going to touch your head and neck. I want you to see all the pain coming up to the surface of your skin. All the pain is evaporating away from the deep tissues... up into my hands. When I take my hands away, you will wake up with no pain.

And I woke up with no pain. My friends were cracking up because I apparently looked completely stupified. My mouth dropped open and my hand went up to my neck and I just sat there looking like an idiot. I've got it on tape, although you can't hear anything that anybody is saying.

And I got to walk around my after-party without a horrendous neck ache. It was phriggin awesome. The effects lasted about 5 hours.

I was recieving physical therapy (PT) at the time when I was hypnotized, but it was another 3 weeks before my neck actually felt normal.

CAVEAT: Pain is there for a reason, and in some cases (much like my own), it may be harmful to take the pain away. For example, I might have moved my neck suddenly and re-injured healing tissues. Some pain can be good.
There are cases where pain is excessive or unrelenting, and I frankly believe that trying hypnosis can't hurt.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Brutha

So I can't do something that makes someone focus completly on it?

I bet if some girl drops her pants in a room full of people a lot of people will focus quite rapidly completly on it and forget what they were thinking before.

The fact is that something like a handshake induction can bring someone who is a total stranger to you into a trance. Sure they will leave it when you tell them things they don't aggre with directly.
But their is room to manuver with Embedded Commands and Metapors outside their awareness and built motivation to do certain things or hallucinate things.

Its a matter of skill.

Hi Brutha,

My point is that people can't be hypnotized against their will, or to be clearer, what they perceive to be their moral/ethical boundaries.

If a girl drops her pants I'd bet at least half of the people looking wouldn't be looking against their will

Admittedly this boundary is pretty flexible and dependent on circumstances, POWs have been subjected to pretty intense 'hypnotisim' more accurately framed as 'brainwashing', and when the mass hypnotism of mobs is pretty real.

But on one to one hypnotism, I've found the rule of thumb to be true; if someone's unconscious mind doesn't feel like they can trust you at some level, they're not going to let the conscious mind go to sleep.

You can be skillful up to a point, but even Milton Erickson had patients he'd spend hours hypnotizing.

Granted, building trust is also a skill

[thomasinalhama.com]

When I was much younger, my friend and I went to a hypnotist (he was my mother's friend and we wanted to experience what it was like).

Anyway, I went there bent on proving that hypnotism is all bs.

My friend went first while I sat there watching her. The thing that I remember the most was that she was asked to go back to a younger age. She answered then that she was now 5 years old, in a little girls voice.

She didn't remember anything about it when she snapped back.

When it was my turn, I was fully conscious of what was happening and it sort of just felt like I was imagining things (like what I do before I go to bed--daydreaming).

I remembered everything and nothing out of the ordinary happened. This made me think that I was probably one of the 10% (correct me if my stats is wrong) that can't be hypnotized.

Looking back at it now though, I think it was largely because I wasn't willing to be hypnotized..

I wouldn't mind doing it again though --although I still am not sure I wan't anyone scrutinizing my subconscious thoughts -- God knows what ghosts hide in there.

As to it's medical use, many studies have shown that it does help in some problems. But I think it needs a very skilled hypnotist and a willing hypnotee(is that the right word) for it to work.

[Brutha]

My point is that people can't be hypnotized against their will, or to be clearer, what they perceive to be their moral/ethical boundaries.

Their are PUA's who can seduce a woman who thinks that having sex on the first date is immoral to have sex with them.
While we would call it seduction instead of hynosis, the PUA trys to have the woman focus on them completly.

And you can do things after an handshake induction with a complete strager like letting him hallucinate that some jacket someone less owns is his own jacket.
Afterwards it isn't that difficult to get him to steal it, because he things it is his own, so he doesn't know that he breakes his "moral boundries".

Sure those things won't be succesful 100% of the time, but they will be succesful often enough.

[Ilya]

Well, I just caught myself defending hypnosis for some reason and I'm starting the post from scratch.

First of all, I'm not talking about stage hypnosis. I'm talking about what's called Ericsonian hypnosis - the kind that does not use pendilums and direct suggestions. It can be used on stage, though.
Then, the argument that you can not hypnotise the people against their will is missing the point. This argument is usually used by those who practice NLP and hypnosis to defend themselves against fears and accusations, to debunk the myths. Yes, hypnosis does not work the way most people think it does, but the fears are not unsound.
The real question is can you do something with hypnosis to another person would regret, once they get back to the "usual" state of mind. If you do, it doesn't really matter if it is against victims "will" or not. Yes, if the person knows that he is about to be hypnotised and does not want it or is being hypnotised without permission, it is much harder to put him into a trance and achieve malicious results.
But as Brutha suggests, it is possible to put a person into altered state of consciousness and achieve results before the person knows what's happening. It is even possible to use naturally occuring trance (when reading, when commuting) to do something bad.
In Russia we have these Gypsy "fortune teller", who are trained in hypnosis from their childhood and use it to steal. I'm not being nationalist here. Obviously there is just a small number of Gypsies who do it, but no other ethnic group is known for this. I once came under attack from such "fortune -teller" in broad daylight, and my NLP training allowed me not only to avoid the attack, but also to realize what exactly was happening. So I can attest that they indeed use hypnosis for their criminal ends.

So once you learn hypnosis, it brings a lot of responsibity. Is it the reason to ban hypnosis and learning it. I don't think so. I think the opposite. The people should be educated about the modern hypnosis, how to detect it, how to protect themselves from the negative effects. Why? Because it is used on us every single day. Most of it unconsciously. Potentially any phrase, a swearing, a phrase with negative meaning or just a phrase that might be understood as a negative command, an awkward pun, or something like that can be harmful. If it is said when a person is in altered state, it can trigger a subconscious response. It is used in advertising, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally but unskillfully.
Why don't we notice it or the negative effects? We are not taught to. And the negative effects can be delayed, can be subtle, it can be just some irrational stress or fear, or poisonous belief we pick up. Most of the time we don't know where it comes from. What percentage comes from spontaneous use of hypnosis - it doesn't matter. Learning about it may reduce the possible ill effects. Using it for the bad purpose - well it takes a lot of motivation to learn this skill to the extend when one can intentionally do harm with it. There are thousands of much simpler ways to do it. If hypnosis was the biggest problem, we would be living in a much nicer world indeed.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Ilya

Well, I just caught myself defending hypnosis for some reason and I'm starting the post from scratch.

Yikes! I'm doing the same thing...I've been hypnotized!

Originally Posted by Ilya

First of all, I'm not talking about stage hypnosis. I'm talking about what's called Ericsonian hypnosis - the kind that does not use pendilums and direct suggestions. It can be used on stage, though.

Yup, the indirect school of Ericksonian hypnosis is the one I'm most familiar with too.

An interesting side note about stage hypnosis: Paul McKenna stated in one of his old books that the secret to stage hypnosis was to select people who wanted to let themselves go on stage, thus all the suggestibility tests done to select the participants who wanted most to follow the suggestions.

That's why he could make people cluck like chickens, because those people wanted to perform and they also knew they were safe.

Originally Posted by Ilya

Then, the argument that you can not hypnotise the people against their will is missing the point. This argument is usually used by those who practice NLP and hypnosis to defend themselves against fears and accusations, to debunk the myths. Yes, hypnosis does not work the way most people think it does, but the fears are not unsound.

My beliefs in that come from Erickson's own study in which he concluded he could not hypnotize people to do things against their own moral judgment (documented in one of his books with Rossi, I forget which).

Originally Posted by Ilya

The real question is can you do something with hypnosis to another person would regret, once they get back to the "usual" state of mind. If you do, it doesn't really matter if it is against victims "will" or not. Yes, if the person knows that he is about to be hypnotised and does not want it or is being hypnotised without permission, it is much harder to put him into a trance and achieve malicious results.

But as Brutha suggests, it is possible to put a person into altered state of consciousness and achieve results before the person knows what's happening. It is even possible to use naturally occuring trance (when reading, when commuting) to do something bad.

Hmm...that's why I threw in the caveat that a person's 'will' can be pretty hard to define.

Yes, I agree; the cultural of hypnosis is pretty deep. We go in and out of altered states all the time, and one of the most insidious and blatant forms of hypnosis are advertisements blaring out at us, telling us how we should live, what we should believe about their products.

I think this is where it's useful to draw the line between one-on-one hypnosis and the hypnosis of the masses. Perhaps in my previous posts I was too adamant on making a point, I should have been more flexible and remembered this is a subject with much leeway.

I think it is also useful to define that there are many levels of hypnosis, from the simple zoning out while riding a bus state, to the unconscious influence of an advert to make you believe without reason that one brand is better than the other, to the deep trance states where you don't feel any pain during surgery.

Originally Posted by Ilya

In Russia we have these Gypsy "fortune teller", who are trained in hypnosis from their childhood and use it to steal. I'm not being nationalist here. Obviously there is just a small number of Gypsies who do it, but no other ethnic group is known for this. I once came under attack from such "fortune -teller" in broad daylight, and my NLP training allowed me not only to avoid the attack, but also to realize what exactly was happening. So I can attest that they indeed use hypnosis for their criminal ends.

In Singapore, I once saw an interview with a woman who claimed she had been robbed by a hypnotist. She described a man coming up to her and hypnotizing her, after that she forgot everything.

The thing was, she was telling all this with a bright smile on her face!

It was obvious she was enjoying the attention; I concluded that it was because of the secondary gain she got that she allowed herself to be hypnotized.

Through that and my work with people I've come to realize that our minds are far larger and more complex than I could ever imagine. Her being robbed was akin to someone smoking; knowing that it was unhealthy didn't compare to the secondary gain of the pleasure of smoking.

I've also come to hear stories of weird things people were able to do that don't fit into my framework of Ericksonian hypnosis...there just isn't any explanation. It's made me realize that 'there are more things in heaven and earth than can be dreamed of in my philosophy', so I wouldn't rule out more fantastic ways to hypnotize someone.

Originally Posted by Ilya

So once you learn hypnosis, it brings a lot of responsibity. Is it the reason to ban hypnosis and learning it. I don't think so. I think the opposite. The people should be educated about the modern hypnosis, how to detect it, how to protect themselves from the negative effects. Why? Because it is used on us every single day. Most of it unconsciously. Potentially any phrase, a swearing, a phrase with negative meaning or just a phrase that might be understood as a negative command, an awkward pun, or something like that can be harmful. If it is said when a person is in altered state, it can trigger a subconscious response. It is used in advertising, sometimes intentionally, sometimes unintentionally, sometimes intentionally but unskillfully.

Why don't we notice it or the negative effects? We are not taught to. And the negative effects can be delayed, can be subtle, it can be just some irrational stress or fear, or poisonous belief we pick up. Most of the time we don't know where it comes from. What percentage comes from spontaneous use of hypnosis - it doesn't matter. Learning about it may reduce the possible ill effects. Using it for the bad purpose - well it takes a lot of motivation to learn this skill to the extend when one can intentionally do harm with it. There are thousands of much simpler ways to do it. If hypnosis was the biggest problem, we would be living in a much nicer world indeed.

Agreed, Ilya. Luckily for us, hypnosis is not an easily learnt skill, and there are far easier ways to get what you want out of people. That said, my training has also helped me spot moments of deliberate and in-deliberate attempts to hypnotize me by people, advertisements and artful language.

[Alvin]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Their are PUA's who can seduce a woman who thinks that having sex on the first date is immoral to have sex with them.
While we would call it seduction instead of hynosis, the PUA trys to have the woman focus on them completly.

Well Brutha, my take on that is that how would you know it was completely against the woman's absolute boundaries? It might have been a line she was willing to cross at some point or another.

I'll pin it down to artful persuasion, rather than someone exerting his will to force someone to do something as you seem to imply.

Originally Posted by Brutha

And you can do things after an handshake induction with a complete strager like letting him hallucinate that some jacket someone less owns is his own jacket.
Afterwards it isn't that difficult to get him to steal it, because he things it is his own, so he doesn't know that he breakes his "moral boundries".

Sure those things won't be succesful 100% of the time, but they will be succesful often enough.

Have you done a handshake interrupt yourself and tested that out, Brutha?

I think this is where it gets a little murky. Yes, I agree, people's boundaries can possibly be manipulated that way. Could someone by hypnotized to believe that a jacket someone else owns is his, and thus by taking it back it'd be doing the right thing?

Possibly...

Could he also realize that he's being hypnotized to do a wrong thing from the get-go? Absolutely.

Could that same person be hypnotized to commit murder? I don't think so.

Could he hypnotize himself to commit murder, to focus on one outcome and hypnotize himself to not see any other outcomes? Happens.

This is a pretty deep subject, which is why I love it

I think a factor has to do with degrees of consciousness, how aware the person who's being hypnotized is.

And I'm going to go with Ilya's point, I'm not going to defend hypnosis...because I'd be hypnotized to do so!

My points for this post are:

1) Hypnosis can be defined as the exclusive focus of attention on one thing to the exception of all others.

2) It can also be defined as an exclusive communication with the unconscious mind (sorry I didn't mention this earlier).

3) People cannot be hypnotized against their will to break their own ethical boundaries...however they might be hypnotized in other ways to redefine their flexible boundaries (to limits, I still believe).

4) People are smart enough to refuse to be hypnotized/manipulated.

5) People are also dumb enough to let themselves or hypnotize themselves all the time...like not seeing their car keys right in front of them!

6) Hypnosis is still not a magical skill where you gain mystical powers to control people's minds...but it is a useful skill for anyone who wants to increase their level of awareness to pick up.

Interesting discussion.

[Alvin]

After struggling to explain hypnosis, Scott Adams offers a better explaination than I coughed up:

The Dilbert Blog: Who Can't Be Hypnotized?

[Dating Specialist]

Interesting thread. I'm just a newbie in NLP, nothing much to contribute to the already bagfuls of thoughts.

Hey Alvin, that's an enjoyable read. Thanks for the link!

P.S Have you wiggled your feet? What if I tell you by wiggling it, it will bring a grin to your face and lighten up your day?

[Brutha]

[QUOTE=Alvin;10389]Well Brutha, my take on that is that how would you know it was completely against the woman's absolute boundaries? It might have been a line she was willing to cross at some point or another.[quote]

My point is that people can't be hypnotized against their will, or to be clearer, what they perceive to be their moral/ethical boundaries.

You said perceived moral boundaries and not absolute boundaries. And their are a whole lot of those perceived moral boundaries that can be overcome easily through reframing and similar things.

Have you done a handshake interrupt yourself and tested that out, Brutha?

I think this is where it gets a little murky. Yes, I agree, people's boundaries can possibly be manipulated that way. Could someone by hypnotized to believe that a jacket someone else owns is his, and thus by taking it back it'd be doing the right thing?

Possibly...

No, I haven't tried that thing myself. But their was some study, that in which people were hynotised (although the hypnosis itself was with consent) to perceive a jacket of another person as their own and steal from it afterwards.

Could he also realize that he's being hypnotized to do a wrong thing from the get-go? Absolutely.

Yes, it won't work everytime.

Could that same person be hypnotized to commit murder? I don't think so.

First, if you tell someone under hynosis directly to murder someone it will fail.
One study gave the hynotised person a glass of acid. The person got some PH-measure thing to verify that it is acid.
Then he was hynotised to belief it isn't acid. Afterwards he should throw the acid at the hynotiseur. Between them was a glass wall which prevented the acid from harming the hynotiseur.

Yes, you can argue that the hynotised person saw through the trick. But that the farest you can get to test whether people can be hynotised to murder.

And do you realy think that the majority of people has a strict moral boundry against killing another person? Even if their own life or the lived of a loved one/child is at stake?
If the moral boundry is I don't kill another person except XXY, it isn't a absolate boundry and can potentially worked around.

Their are three ways to get someone do something against their "will".
1. Getting enough motivation to do the thing. (Dan Browns The Heist stunt)
2. Reframing the situation.
3. Changing values. (Probably the hardest and that needs a lot of work)

My beliefs in that come from Erickson's own study in which he concluded he could not hypnotize people to do things against their own moral judgment

Erickson tried to tell them relativly directly to do things against their own moral judgement, but it seems to be more complicated to get people to do things against their own moral judgement.

I'll pin it down to artful persuasion, rather than someone exerting his will to force someone to do something as you seem to imply.

Yes, hypnosis against the "will" of someone is rather artful persuasion than forcing the person, but it can neverless work.

[Alvin]

I think the differences between what we're saying can be easily summed up by this passage in Scott's article:

The best way to think of hypnosis is on a continuum of methods for influencing people. On the extreme side of the continuum you would have outright brainwashing of the sort where a kidnapped person begins to sympathize with the kidnappers, or a new recruit is drawn into a cult.

On the opposite end of the influence scale we have the legal and widespread practices of advertising and marketing. You practice a little bit of marketing every time you get dressed. We are all in the business of influencing people.

If not, that's what I mean, and he says it more artfully than I have.