Suicide

[Mondrian]

I think suicide is taboo because it is actually as logical and sensible a thing to do as any other, especially when things are chronically not going well.

I think suicide is a powerful and dangerous idea for those who want to gain something from staying alive, which is basically anyone that has not committed suicide.

I am not suicidal. I want to gain things. Suicide is a powerful and dangerous idea for me, but not taboo.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

I think suicide is taboo because it is actually as logical and sensible a thing to do as any other, especially when things are chronically not going well.

That speaks for my mom....she killed herself and she did it to be happy.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

That speaks for my mom....she killed herself and she did it to be happy.

Why did she think it would make her happy?

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Why did she think it would make her happy?

Exactly as you said...logically it was the solution to her chronic problem of failing in every area of life. She was rosy the morning of her death according to my neighbor who saw her.

Living from logic is our misery.

[Andrew Brunelle]

Suicide is a valid option, and I wouldn't judge anyone for doing it, although there are certain circumstances that I would be more open if I heard about a suicide. Sometimes people who commit suicide do so when they cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel, when in fact there is one.

I can understand someone in chronic severe pain that is untreatable and who has lost pretty much all functioning and cannot be the person they wish to be committing suicide. There are situations where that seems like the most valid option, but only when existence is so unbearable and you have exhausted every option to change that.

I feel that everyone has a right to end their life if they deem it necessary. I don't think most people wish to end their own life at this point, but for those that do, they should have that right. Suicide should not be illegal, but then again, if you do succeed, you're not going to jail, are you? If you fail, you end up in a mental hospital for a 72-hour psych hold with no rights at all until you get out or are deemed a danger to yourself or others and get stuck there for a long time...

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Exactly as you said...logically it was the solution to her chronic problem of failing in every area of life. She was rosy the morning of her death according to my neighbor who saw her.

That's really fascinating to me. Thanks for sharing that. I thought you meant it would make her happy afterwards.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

That's really fascinating to me. Thanks for sharing that. I thought you meant it would make her happy afterwards.

Her unhappiness was mental. And her happiness was mental. When she made the decision to die, but before she pulled the trigger, all her problems were solved because when dead, she wouldn't have to deal with them anymore.

So for a brief period of time, she was alive with no problems, except her happiness was contingent upon pulling the trigger. So she's out in the backyard at peace and my neighbor had never seen her so happy.

But if she chose to not die, then the weight of her failures comes back and there goes her happiness again.

It was all mental. The mind has no heart. And in the confused mind is automatic self-absorption, selfishness. Her mind wasn't healthy and selflessness isn't possible until the mind is whole.

Logic kills when it runs life.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

Suicide is a valid option, and I wouldn't judge anyone for doing it, although there are certain circumstances that I would be more open if I heard about a suicide. Sometimes people who commit suicide do so when they cannot see the light at the end of the tunnel, when in fact there is one.

Yes, you hear about cases where an attempt has failed and the person goes on to be substantially glad that it did so. I don't know of any such cases myself, though, and I wonder if this is in part a myth associated with the taboo of suicide.

Even if there was a ligt at the end of the tunnel, though, is the person any worse off for not reaching it? Obviously there are, one would think, severe, implications for those left behind.

Originally Posted by Andrew Brunelle

I can understand someone in chronic severe pain that is untreatable and who has lost pretty much all functioning and cannot be the person they wish to be committing suicide. There are situations where that seems like the most valid option, but only when existence is so unbearable and you have exhausted every option to change that.

That is almost the acceptable face of suicide and legally proscribed euthenasia is on the rise, globally, I believe. What about the case where there there is no such prognosis, where the candidate has their health and prospects and so on? This is more taboo. But do such cases exist or are all suicides the result of chronic physical or psychological pain. I don't actually know too much about the reality of this.

[ZephyrusX]

One of the risk factors associated with suicide is previous suicide attempts. So I wouldn't say that all people who fail at a suicide attempt are glad about it afterwards. Some move on to successfully kill themselves latter. May be a previous attempt even alleviates their inhibitions? Sort of how people who slit their wrists will make a couple of 'test' cuts before they actually go all the way.

Originally Posted by Mondrian

Yes, you hear about cases where an attempt has failed and the person goes on to be substantially glad that it did so. I don't know of any such cases myself, though, and I wonder if this is in part a myth
associated with the taboo of suicide.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

Her unhappiness was mental. And her happiness was mental. When she made the decision to die, but before she pulled the trigger, all her problems were solved because when dead, she wouldn't have to deal with them anymore.

So for a brief period of time, she was alive with no problems, except her happiness was contingent upon pulling the trigger. So she's out in the backyard at peace and my neighbor had never seen her so happy.

But if she chose to not die, then the weight of her failures comes back and there goes her happiness again.

It was all mental. The mind has no heart. And in the confused mind is automatic self-absorption, selfishness. Her mind wasn't healthy and selflessness isn't possible until the mind is whole.

Logic kills when it runs life.

That's provoking some feelings in me. It's hard not to respond to this as a tragedy when imagining the scene as you describe it.

You say logic kills when it runs life and I am interested in that. I want to say, isn't death and killing part of life anyway? I mean, we're all going to die no matter how logical or otherwise we are in this life. Also, there can be killings out of passion, can there not? And many might kill themselves because of feelings rather than thoughts, just ones that they can't bare to go on with.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

That's provoking some feelings in me. It's hard not to respond to this as a tragedy when imagining the scene as you describe it.

I was 19 and she was the only person in my life that understood me.

You say logic kills when it runs life and I am interested in that.

We only think about what we don't know, right? If you want to leave your room, you don't think about how, you just get up and go.

But no one knows everything there is to know in life. Some things we know and the rest we have to guess at. We logically guess and we have to understand that our thoughts are not truths. If we knew the truth, we wouldn't be thinking, right?

But unaware, logical ideas feel really good. Unaware, logic becomes an assumption and we try to impose it on life. We don't realize we are imposing and blame others for not playing nice with our ideas. But unaware, we don't realize that life rules and not logical ideas of how we think life is supposed to be.

Logic imposed on life kills joy. People don't get to be themselves because now they have to be obedient to the great idea that feels true. That's what organized religions and culture do to us, impose a massive system of ideas on us, preventing us from being ourselves.

So in the other thread I asked you about repressed feelings and energy. That was the premise for my question because all of us are forced to be obedient to some institution and forced obedience is repression.

This imposed logic is violent to our joy.

I want to say, isn't death and killing part of life anyway? I mean, we're all going to die no matter how logical or otherwise we are in this life. Also, there can be killings out of passion, can there not? And many might kill themselves because of feelings rather than thoughts, just ones that they can't bare to go on with.

Death is part of life. But life is killed before death by logical living.

[nistacular]

just wanted to say thank you for this conversation - it was fascinating just to read on many levels

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Mondrian

I think suicide is taboo because it is actually as logical and sensible a thing to do as any other, especially when things are chronically not going well.

I tend to disagree, for the following reason.

If you have suicidal tendencies, then most likely you have already been upset, depressed, unhappy, troubled etc etc for an extended period of time. In such a state, your mind is probably quite muddled and you are not able to think clearly.

As such, when you decide to kill yourself, the decision is unlikely to have been made on logical and sensible grounds.

[ZephyrusX]

I agree with this. I've wrestled with suicidal thoughts off and on in my life and attempted suicide once. There is nothing logical about the state of mind you are in. It is more like a last resort at finding some measure of peace in your life when you have been in mental pain and distress for a extended period of time and see no way out of it.

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

I tend to disagree, for the following reason.

If you have suicidal tendencies, then most likely you have already been upset, depressed, unhappy, troubled etc etc for an extended period of time. In such a state, your mind is probably quite muddled and you are not able to think clearly.

As such, when you decide to kill yourself, the decision is unlikely to have been made on logical and sensible grounds.

[Lethalmind]

Originally Posted by RonSouther

She was rosy the morning of her death according to my neighbor who saw her.

Living from logic is our misery.

When all of the problems fade away, and you don't have to worry about them anymore it's a nice feeling in a sort of twisted sense.

I've been suicidal at points just to get away from the stuff I fear coming in the future. Mentally, I feel like I'm screwed up beyond any repair and the future will only equal a living hell; like the present only way way way worse. When I'm suicidal I don't have to worry about any of it.

It actually led me to a brief insight where I had an entire day of pure happiness. I refused to get involved with my struggles.

If a bear mauled me at that point I wouldn't have struggled one bit or been upset.

I was done with the struggle of life. No worry at all for once in my life. Then it went away and here I am again. In my lonely dungeon.

I'm still trying to figure out wtf I did too have such a beautiful, outstanding day.

I used to be against suicide(My brother killed himself), but in my opinion everyone has the right to opt out. When you reach your threshold no one has a right to keep you here. Still, I'm only going to use it as my last option (Getting closer).

If I go that route, my goal is to die with a smile.

It's sad especially when parents kill themselves(My brother left behind 3 kids). No death is easy though, and living for other people is not an option in my opinion. Just leads to a torturous existence.

I've gone that route for years, living for my mom, and mostly, only felt like ♥♥♥♥. Live for yourself or don't live at all in my opinion.

[cheesedip1]

Originally Posted by Lethalmind

I've been suicidal at points just to get away from the stuff I fear coming in the future. Mentally, I feel like I'm screwed up beyond any repair and the future will only equal a living hell; like the present only way way way worse. .

In this case, what you want to do is stay in the present. The future isn't here yet.

Many times, we fear the future or worry about it, but the thing is, nothing has actually happened yet. A lot of the time nothing bad will actually happen in the future anyways.

[ZephyrusX]

Just in my own words, being suicidal is like being stuck in the lonely dungeon of your mind being tormented by 'nothings'. 'Nothings' are excessively critical and disparaging thoughts that relate to our social environment (i.e you'll always be alone, you'll never be loved, you will never be good enough), but I call them nothings, as on closer inspection, they rarely have an absolute basis in reality. But try telling a suicidal teenager that they are not alone because they clearly have a family that loves them on some level. You'll see that they won't believe you. That is why I don't think there is anything logical about suicide. If you had mental clarity, I don't think you would be driven to suicide to begin with and you would probably see more effective resources to deal with your problems.

May be you had such a beautiful day simply because you stopped struggling and resisting towards aspects of your life that you previously felt inclined to judge and criticize? I think the moments in my life where I've felt most at peace have been when I stopped caring and simply accepted my life as it came. In a way, it was giving my self permission to be happy unconditionally. May be it is profound indifference, in a way.

Originally Posted by Lethalmind

I was done with the struggle of life. No worry at all for once in my life. Then it went away and here I am again. In my lonely dungeon.

I'm still trying to figure out wtf I did too have such a beautiful, outstanding day.

[Lethalmind]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

May be you had such a beautiful day simply because you stopped struggling and resisting towards aspects of your life that you previously felt inclined to judge and criticize? I think the moments in my life where I've felt most at peace have been when I stopped caring and simply accepted my life as it came. In a way, it was giving my self permission to be happy unconditionally. May be it is profound indifference, in a way.

Definitely was the giving up of all resistance and struggle. I called it surrendering to what is.

It was the most powerful insight I've ever come across. I kind of forgot about it until now because it quit working.

If I had become a parapalegic, leper or blind during that time, I would've been able to accept it. "That's what is" and there's no use in struggling with a more powerful force.

[ZephyrusX]

It is a powerful insight. It feels tremendously peaceful, doesn't it?

I forget about it at times too. Well, actually, may be it is more of a case of taking the principle of non-attachment and the path of least resistance and upgrading it to a more sophisticated coping system. I've always had this weird fear of being alone (I distinctly remember waking up at a really young age with a terrifying thought that I was going to end up alone). Compared to that, indifference and simply letting go is peaceful. It is sort of like escapism in a way: 'I just don't ♥♥♥♥ing care any more if I am alone. I'm not going to care about people'. But it works. It is a hell of a lot better than putting a bullet through your head.

But it is a poor coping mechanism, in my experience, as those fears of rejection and being alone always resurface the moment I meet the slightest bit of emotional intimacy in my life. That doesn't mean that I can keep working on the principle of non-attachment and a path of least resistance though. I'm slowly working on a system where I actively build relationships with a genuine interest, but there is the underlying understanding that it really doesn't mean anything if I am alone. It just is. There is no attachment to a particular outcome.

Originally Posted by Lethalmind

Definitely was the giving up of all resistance and struggle. I called it surrendering to what is.

It was the most powerful insight I've ever come across. I kind of forgot about it until now because it quit working.

If I had become a parapalegic, leper or blind during that time, I would've been able to accept it. "That's what is" and there's no use in struggling with a more powerful force.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

'I just don't ♥♥♥♥ing care any more if I am alone. I'm not going to care about people'. But it works. It is a hell of a lot better than putting a bullet through your head.

Oh, I know this one well.

Determining to not care because caring hurts too much in a world where I perceived such a lack of compassion and caring for people. I struggled in conflict with wanting to not be like them, but also wanting to be like them and not care. I would try and kill that part of me that cares, as a way to relieve my troubled mind.

But it is a poor coping mechanism, in my experience, as those fears of rejection and being alone always resurface the moment I meet the slightest bit of emotional intimacy in my life. That doesn't mean that I can keep working on the principle of non-attachment and a path of least resistance though. I'm slowly working on a system where I actively build relationships with a genuine interest, but there is the underlying understanding that it really doesn't mean anything if I am alone. It just is. There is no attachment to a particular outcome.

It's been interesting to read this thread, and much of what has been said articulated my feelings on the subject, which I was never able to put into words...something that made things even worse for me when I was in terrible pain...not being able to express the distress I was in in any way. It remained locked up inside me, and would not come out. There were no words to speak.

[MariconesUnited]

Zephyrapalooza! First things first...I really like you and I like what you have to say on most everything. I hope you're doing much better now. Sure seems like it to me, but as RonSouther mentioned, looks can be deceiving.

This is a tough topic. Suicide is very much taboo still. It's tough for me especially since I've struggled with the thought a lot, especially in my teenage years. Just talking about it brings back the memories. But it's important to talk about it. I think most people have thought about suicide. That's important to keep in mind.

I'm a whole lot better now. In fact I can survive situations I know people would run away from today.

If you don't mind me saying, I think what you've accepted intellectually you're not yet feeling emotionally. I get the feeling you're inspired by the buddhist approach right? You know that fear you feel when you're intimate with someone? I think you're fearing attachment. You've felt the pain of being attached to someone then losing them before right? It's probably compounded by the fear of being alone. If you let that pain stop you from building a relationship with anyone, you're not detached yet. I think the goal is to just be yourself and to be aware of our subconscious processes which lead to attachment. It's a path to inner peace, whether you are with someone or alone. By the way, you've been alone with your body and your thoughts your whole life, technically speaking, just like all of us. It's not so bad is it?

Quiet your mind. Observe your inner being. Think a thought. For example: ''I am alone''. What does it feel like? Which areas of your body react? This will be a good guide for you to know where you really are, deep down inside.

*hugs*

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

It is a powerful insight. It feels tremendously peaceful, doesn't it?

I forget about it at times too. Well, actually, may be it is more of a case of taking the principle of non-attachment and the path of least resistance and upgrading it to a more sophisticated coping system. I've always had this weird fear of being alone (I distinctly remember waking up at a really young age with a terrifying thought that I was going to end up alone). Compared to that, indifference and simply letting go is peaceful. It is sort of like escapism in a way: 'I just don't ♥♥♥♥ing care any more if I am alone. I'm not going to care about people'. But it works. It is a hell of a lot better than putting a bullet through your head.

But it is a poor coping mechanism, in my experience, as those fears of rejection and being alone always resurface the moment I meet the slightest bit of emotional intimacy in my life. That doesn't mean that I can keep working on the principle of non-attachment and a path of least resistance though. I'm slowly working on a system where I actively build relationships with a genuine interest, but there is the underlying understanding that it really doesn't mean anything if I am alone. It just is. There is no attachment to a particular outcome.

[Albalida]

I agree. It may mostly be taboo because it's highly individualistic. It's a very big decision to make for yourself, but there are so many systemic influences looming over you.

Put bluntly, every individual is an investment. Parents, guardians, and government funds have gone to birthing and growing a human being. All those meals, clothes, the buildings that shelter us, education, no matter how unhealthy/ill-fitting/asbestos-padded/brainwashing, all of that comes from the effort of other people.

After all that investment, there's an underlying imperative to give something back, even if you're horribly unhappy with being a cog, or everything is a pretense, or you truly live in unbearable physical or emotional pain. Or if you fantasize about death being mainly about leaving a good-looking corpse, and finally being the center of attention and lauded as the paragon of humanity that you always were, however contrary the reality would be.


The message of, "Don't kill yourself, because suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and life really is beautiful" tends to ring very hollow to me, because I never get the sense that people who say that either know or care what it's really like to want to die. They just want the suicidal person to think the same way and see the world the same way as they do, when theirs is not necessarily a more logical or realistic point of view.

[MariconesUnited]

Originally Posted by Albalida

I agree. It may mostly be taboo because it's highly individualistic.

I highly doubt that. I don't know where you live but I live in a highly individualistic society. I think it's taboo mainly because it's an expression of suffering and it reminds people of death. I think those are the big taboos.

[RonSouther]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I agree with this. I've wrestled with suicidal thoughts off and on in my life and attempted suicide once. There is nothing logical about the state of mind you are in. It is more like a last resort at finding some measure of peace in your life when you have been in mental pain and distress for a extended period of time and see no way out of it.

Logic is there but not intelligence....That's the problem. The two are not seen as separate. The mind logically attaches to ideas, but we have ideas because we don't know intelligently what is true.

My mom was logically correct....suicide solved her problems. She hasn't had to face them at all. But her logic was an idea and didn't encompass the whole of life so she didn't have the intelligence to see how the lives around her would be affected and she didn't have the intelligence to see a path out of her problems, that she lived in fear in her ideas and not in peace in her intelligence.

The mind isn't intelligent, it's just a process to help us guess about what we don't know. It functioned fine in that sense. The failure was in other areas of her mind where she was conditioned to live in ideas which results in a life of judgment for self and for others and not compassion.

[Mondrian]

Originally Posted by Albalida

Put bluntly, every individual is an investment. Parents, guardians, and government funds have gone to birthing and growing a human being. All those meals, clothes, the buildings that shelter us, education, no matter how unhealthy/ill-fitting/asbestos-padded/brainwashing, all of that comes from the effort of other people.

After all that investment, there's an underlying imperative to give something back, ...

I agree, and I think the imperative is maybe even more minimal and basic than to give back, that is, the imperative just to accept the 'gift' that is all that work. When others are working to give you a life and through suicide you just reject it, that is a big blow to the reason for the existence of those others. I think part of the reason for the taboo is maybe that it shields us from having to deeply answer questions about why we are bothering at all. If facing these questions gets in the way of what we focused on doing in our lives, then the taboo suits us.

Originally Posted by Albalida

The message of, "Don't kill yourself, because suicide is a permanent solution to a temporary problem and life really is beautiful" tends to ring very hollow to me, because I never get the sense that people who say that either know or care what it's really like to want to die. They just want the suicidal person to think the same way and see the world the same way as they do, when theirs is not necessarily a more logical or realistic point of view.

Yes, I think perhaps some of the stock responses like this to the idea of suicide are part of the taboo: little 'catchphrases' that attempt and usually succeed to sweep the idea of suicide under the carpet. Do people actually say such things, though?

[ZephyrusX]

I feel better now than when I was younger. I have more moments in my life where I can legitimately say I am happy. May be even joyful. That is completely different from even 3 years ago. I still get into moods though, which is why I am participating in this thread. The night before this thread was started, I was thinking that it was a really good thing that there wasn't a gun in the house as I think I would be more prone to actually kill my self if it was there. I think that is one reason why I'm against gun ownership. It makes things too easy for people to kill themselves. Unless a person has completely healed, I don't think they ever quite walk away from suicide. That option always lingers there as suicide ideation.

Thanks for your concern.

I usually don't share my thoughts on the issue as I think most people would find any excuse and/or delegitmizing technique to get out of listening. I think that is one of the reasons why suicidal people end up feeling alone. People saying stuff like, 'you are too emotional!', 'Emo!', You are not really suicidal, you are just exaggerating!', 'You just want attention!', 'Pull your self together!'.

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

Zephyrapalooza! First things first...I really like you and I like what you have to say on most everything. I hope you're doing much better now. Sure seems like it to me, but as RonSouther mentioned, looks can be deceiving.

I think that is a fair assessment. I get it intellectually, but on some deeper, emotional level, I don't think I've accepted it as I think I'd feel more at peace if I had. I think my thoughts have been influenced by buddhism, but I don't know for certain. I just sort of pick up ideas I hear other people talking about and try to integrate them into my own life.

Are you familiar with buddhist teachings? Can you recommend any texts you think would be helpful?

Originally Posted by MariconesUnited

If you don't mind me saying, I think what you've accepted intellectually you're not yet feeling emotionally. I get the feeling you're inspired by the buddhist approach right? You know that fear you feel when you're intimate with someone?

[Mondrian]

I have a tendency to want to condemn the taboo of suicide but I also want to understand it. It obviously serves a positive function.

This is perhaps very basic. The basis of social interaction of any sort is that two or more people have showed up, alive! The idea of suicide is a threat to the very possibility of that meeting taking place. Turning up and then talking about suicide is like meeting a stranger and just slapping them in the face. If one person talks of suicide then the other/s will have no interest in them because that person would be saying that they're not even fully committed to the fact that they are there in front of the other person/s. Saying that they question whether existence as it is in this moment is in anyway more meaningful than it's absence. To talk of suicide is to talk of a void. It is the ultimate affront. If someone were to drone on to me about suicide all the time I would probably reject them because I want to live.

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I usually don't share my thoughts on the issue as I think most people would find any excuse and/or delegitmizing technique to get out of listening. I think that is one of the reasons why suicidal people end up feeling alone. People saying stuff like, 'you are too emotional!', 'Emo!', You are not really suicidal, you are just exaggerating!', 'You just want attention!', 'Pull your self together!'.

I get this too.

Even here, I got this once when I posted that I was getting the impulse to jab myself in the eye and someone said I just wanted attention. Um...no, I really did want to poke my eye out with a pen at that moment. It wasn't for attention, it was from feeling so desperate and in so much pain.

People make things worse and they don't even know it with the things they say to suicidal people. Even so called social workers who see it every day.

[Mondrian]

I think also that the idea of suicide brings sharply into focus the reality of how alone we are in the world (notwithstanding those who arn't ultimately alone!)

There is nothing whatsoever I can do to stop [the hypothetical] you killing yourself. And you cannot prevent me either. There is utter disconnect. Yes, we can use coercion, force, persuasion, but that only serves to highlight the fact that we are separate and that the only recourse we have is to such activities in which one separate 'body' is acting upon another.

The sense of aloneness brought up by the idea of suicide is also effect when we see that person thinking about killing themselves and we say: well I'm not coming with you. All the empathy and emotional connections that were/are supposed to be there are exposed by the idea of suicide as smoke and mirrors, when it comes to the crunch.

[ZephyrusX]

Yah, I've felt that way at times during extreme distress.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong about not wanting to talk to someone who is suicidal or really distressed. I know how stressful it can be, especially if you have a long term relationship with someone who is unable to help them selves. I can also get why some people don't want to speak about painful emotions.

I don't get why they just don't come out and say that though. I mean, it is a pretty easy thing to do. 'Look, I'm sorry you feel this way and I acknowledge your pain, but I don't have the resources to help you'. I don't see the need to say something that has the purpose of derailing the topic at hand and make it seem like it is because there is something 'bad' about the speaker.

May be they see some sort of value in deflecting attention away from the fact that they don't have the resources to deal with the situation?

Oh well, I'm glad that this thread was started. I got a few ideas from a few current threads that I think I can use in my life in a meaningful way.

Luci, if you ever have another 'I want to shove a pen through my eye' moment and feel like talking, feel free to send me a PM.

Originally Posted by elucidate

Even here, I got this once when I posted that I was getting the impulse to jab myself in the eye and someone said I just wanted attention. Um...no, I really did want to poke my eye out with a pen at that moment. It wasn't for attention, it was from feeling so desperate and in so much pain.

People make things worse and they don't even know it with the things they say to suicidal people. Even so called social workers who see it every day.