No goals?

[cacheborn]

So far I have been following the well established path in PD i.e. set goals, larger and smaller, conquer your deadlines and accomplish more. Recently I came across Leo Babauta's post of No goals.

the best goal is no goal :zenhabits

It's an intriguing concept and I am thinking of giving it a 30 day trial. My main worry is I will slack off and do nothing.

Wondering if anyone has tried this? If yes, what was the experience like?

[Rimuel]

"What do you do, then? Lay around on the couch all day, sleeping and watching TV and eating Ho-Hos? No, you simply do. You find something you’re passionate about, and do it. Just because you don’t have goals doesn’t mean you do nothing — you can create, you can produce, you can follow your passion."

Funny, 'cause that's how I've been living my life up til now.

My experience with goals are similar to what he describe as well: I procrastinate, fail to achieve and blame it on my incompetence.

My experience with living without "goals", as he defined it isn't much better than being with goals though. I often feel that I could achieve much more, if only I define precisely what I want to do.

You could give it a try for 30 days in a gradual progression, but I recommend that instead of giving up goals altogether, you build a plan that you will actually NOT procrastinate and fly kite on.

I've always been overwhelmed with planning what to do for every dates of a project. Now what I do is use a daily planner, and plan day-to-day tasks instead of planning 30 days ahead.

I use a framework for my projects:

- what do I need to do to achieve my goals?
- what are my real goals?
- is there sufficient time? how do I make sure I have enough time? (I'm terrible at time management)

So far I'm having a good time with my results.


Overall I think it's better to spend one's life to get better at setting goals and plans you will be able to achieve while enjoying the journey, rather than giving up goals.

[CroMagna]

I don't think you'll slack off and do nothing. Goals give you a false sense that you're being productive even when you're not. Having no goals will motivate you to live passionately and productively. I say go for it!

[Angela]

That's pretty much what my life has been like for the last several years, since I began actively using a subjective reality perspective. I have "games" that I play, but they're nothing like what people usually understand as goals.

Mostly, what I want, I just go ahead and generate immediately. Games are simply fun expressions of whatever results I'm generating. Sometimes those expressions are spread out over time, but an "end result" is not really important; it's the expression that is meaningful for me -- much like dancing. I don't dance in order to get to the end of the dance, but I might choose a game of learning some steps that make up a particular dance, or a game of developing the endurance, power, or new ways to *move* myself and others in my dance.

But I can't "fail" in a game or a dance, anymore than it's a "failure" to lose at Monopoly or Chutes and Ladders.

[Prinie]

Most people here have given you pretty good responses.

I don't make goals anymore. I know what it is I'm doing overall and I'm aware of the person i'm becoming but I don't cover it over with goals.

[VinceG]

My brief experience with setting goals ended in failure. I simply don't work well setting goals. My life changes in the interrim period and it makes the goal no longer relevant. I would imagine that people who do set lots of goals and use those goals as a stick to beat them into action every day would find the transition to a goal-less lifestyle difficult.

Personally, I find that if I'm having a hard time motivating myself, then that means the direction I'm choosing for my life isn't the right one for me. It may take a few days to re-direct myself and find motivation again. This process happens roughly monthly.

I don't define myself through accomplishment, so as a result, I don't accomplish much. I have dozens of half-started projects, that I've simply put down and not finished. The very second I lose the motivation, I put it down and look for inspiration elsewhere.

In order to make this work for you, you need to have a very strong sense of self, one that can accept the above lifestyle without getting depressed about never really finishing anything.

What you get out of it is the opportunity to explore a lot more of life than you ever would have had the chance to otherwise. You also learn to be more opportunistic.

Moving to this sort of life can wreck your current career, especially if it's one that doesn't really agree with you. It's not something you do if you have responsibilities or mouths to feed. Money can get very scarce while you're dropping what doesn't work and exploring things on the basis of whether they interest you or not rather than whether they pay well.

[Lifeisamazing]

I kind of agree with this philosophy. If you are too goal-driven, then you forget to enjoy the process. I have my results in mind, but focus mostly on that I enjoy what I do.

I know what doesn't work with regard to goals for me: Writing those down every day like Brian Tracy recommends. Instead, I want to have a few things I'm really passionate about so that I don't have to force anything. I agree with Leo that all this talk about discipline is quite ridiculous. You don't need much discipline if you do what you like.

If we are talking about semantics here, you still have goals with the minimalist mindset. You just don't obsess about them.

[ZephyrusX]

I like this way of putting it and it has been the way I've lived my life for the most part. I'll have overarching goals that represent areas in my life that I want to improve, but there is no fixed path to getting there. If you don't enjoy the process of achieving the goal, it is a shame really.

I remember the last time we went camping. We were on our way home (our goal), but the GPS system sent us on another weird detour, which annoyed me at first. Rather than taking the hi-way, we ended up taking a very scenic detour. It was the first time I drove through a wind farm. It took us longer to reach our goal, but really, the end result paled in comparison to the process.

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

If we are talking about semantics here, you still have goals with the minimalist mindset. You just don't obsess about them.

[ksirminoh]

Wow, now that I've planned my goals for the year I read this...
Oh well, I'll tell you guys if planning worked, because right now I just cannot see myself without goals...

[nothuman]

If any one pearl of wisdom bought me to realization it was that in a lot of cases goals, affirmations and wanting to employ change takes us further away from acceptance......of our self.
Having said that there is definetly a place for goals...but in a lot of cases goals are set in order to run away from where we find ourselves at any one time eg poverty, emotion, exerior terminals....I find that in not addressing the core issue and hoping to overide it creates more failure and takes us further away from ourselves...

[reekah]

A person with no goals is not human IMO (not meant offensively, but metaphorically). Everybody has things they want to achieve, or improve, as few people are ever truly content in their life positions. I think by simply wanting to progress and develop, this requires some end point.

[nothuman]

hahahahaha...no you were right the first time.......I am an underchiever from way back ......... you goal setters need us types to create a balance....

[cacheborn]

Thanks a lot for the responses. I am still chewing on this stuff.

One thing I am not clear is how to get it down to daily activities. For example, in goal oriented way, I plan my day like - study language for one hour, exercise, read, don't spend too much time goofing off on the net etc.

Now without goals I fear I may spend all the time on the net or do not do exercise at all. And something like learning a language requires that you do it everyday, you cannot do it once a month when the mood strikes you. Language learning is one of my passions, but it requires discipline to do it everyday. Without that, it will just remain a passion and never get fulfilled.

[cacheborn]

The points that I find interesting about this approach are :

1. It's true that sometimes goals limit your state. Your happiness depends on whether you finish a goal in time or not.

2. Most of the time, unexpected things happen so that you may complete your goals partially or not at all. This can lead to frustration.

I think at the root of it is my limiting belief that if I don't do anything in life, I am wasting it. Am I? Added to it are the practical concerns that I mentioned in previous post.

[ZephyrusX]

In light of reading this,

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I think at the root of it is my limiting belief that if I don't do anything in life, I am wasting it. Am I? Added to it are the practical concerns that I mentioned in previous post.

I take this back.

Originally Posted by Zephy

I like this way of putting it and it has been the way I've lived my life for the most part. I'll have overarching goals that represent areas in my life that I want to improve, but there is no fixed path to getting there. If you don't enjoy the process of achieving the goal, it is a shame really

I don't make crazy lists of goals with accompanying 'to do lists' or anything, but I do believe in my social bringing that tells me that my life is meaningless unless I achieve goals. I'm not sure if that is the best perspective that one can live by though. I actually have achieved a lot that I never expected I ever would back in high-school, but interestingly, it never seems to be good enough. I'm still generally unhappy with my life. Then I'll think to my self, 'if only if I achieve this goal and that one, I'll be happier!' Will it though? May be it is my perspective on meaning that is flawed.

I think the happiest moments in my life were times where I was able to simply enjoy a moment irrespective of what ever success I had achieved in life. I seem to be reducing meaning to happiness though. Is that too simplistic?

Ha, sorry! I'm just rambling as your thoughts resonated with me in some way. I don't really have any answers!

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I don't make crazy lists of goals with accompanying 'to do lists' or anything, but I do believe in my social bringing that tells me that my life is meaningless unless I achieve goals. I'm not sure if that is the best perspective that one can live by though. I actually have achieved a lot that I never expected I ever would back in high-school, but interestingly, it never seems to be good enough. I'm still generally unhappy with my life. Then I'll think to my self, 'if only if I achieve this goal and that one, I'll be happier!' Will it though? May be it is my perspective on meaning that is flawed.

I think the happiest moments in my life were times where I was able to simply enjoy a moment irrespective of what ever success I had achieved in life. I seem to be reducing meaning to happiness though. Is that too simplistic?

Ha, sorry! I'm just rambling as your thoughts resonated with me in some way. I don't really have any answers!

That's fine, we are here to exchange views. I don't think there are any clear cut answers.

I don't think I have achieved anything in my past life without setting goals. Perhaps that's why I fine this concept intriguing as well as difficult to comprehend. I am not sure it's possible to live a complete goal free life. You have to do certain things even if you don't like them, like going to the dentist.

But apart from that, maybe I will try it for a day and see how it goes. But I need to think more about it. Not so much about how to do it, but on my beliefs underneath.

[CoolBee]

I haven't read your link Cache, but one of the things I concluded a couple of years ago, that continually focusing on commonly-accepted style goals puts you in the place of constantly living in the future and never in the now.
When I left corporate life, this was very much my style. Gradually, I have met people who don't want to make these kind of goals, but set goals (though they would never use that language) around living a more full life in the now, with an emphasis much more on what feelings, relationships, emotions etc they want to be experiencing daily.

I think there's a difference between 'actively not setting goals' (eg they way several people in this thread have responded - it's a conscious choice) and 'drifting'.

I have also been considering how 'goals' fits a ho'oponopono philosophy in life!

Trying to think about how your language learning example might fit these approaches. "I am a person who enjoys learning a language and so I enjoy engaging with that language daily" rather than "I want to learn Arabic so I have to do an hour a day" . Then if you experience a resistance to it, it's a cleaning opportunity

[Acting Like Godot]

The solution may not be "no goals", but "goals with a shorter time frame". Eg if a 12-month goal does not work for you, then perhaps a monthly goal. If a monthly goal does not work, then perhaps weekly goals. If not weekly goals, then perhaps daily goals, or even "things I want to do this morning".

You see, the problem with goals is that people like to see the results, outcomes, feedback, sooner rather than later. People lose interest in 5-year plans because they don't want to be doing it for five years before they find out whether they succeed or not.

It takes certain kinds of environment / person to successfully carry out a longer-term plan. Either you have to be really, really interested (eg an athlete training now for the 2015 Olympics) or you need a lot of structure (eg a college syllabus laid out for the next five years, and the system will guide and push you through) or you are a formidably disciplined and focused person.

The thing is - shorter term plans aren't necessarily any less effective. They have their own inherent advantages and importantly, any long-term plan is just an assembly of many shorter term plans. A successful life itself is just a collection of many successful days.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Trying to think about how your language learning example might fit these approaches. "I am a person who enjoys learning a language and so I enjoy engaging with that language daily" rather than "I want to learn Arabic so I have to do an hour a day" . Then if you experience a resistance to it, it's a cleaning opportunity

This can be done. However, the task of language learning inherently is long term. If I stay passionate for a week or month and study, then do something else when my passion shifts, I will not be able to master any language.

Yes, Ho'oponopono is always there. I suspect that cleaning in the first place gave me the idea of exploring this topic.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by ksirminoh

Wow, now that I've planned my goals for the year I read this...
Oh well, I'll tell you guys if planning worked, because right now I just cannot see myself without goals...

Don't worry, I am exploring the idea.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

It takes certain kinds of environment / person to successfully carry out a longer-term plan. Either you have to be really, really interested (eg an athlete training now for the 2015 Olympics) or you need a lot of structure (eg a college syllabus laid out for the next five years, and the system will guide and push you through) or you are a formidably disciplined and focused person.

My worry is if my passion runs out mid-way, then I have discipline to fall back on. Without goals, I am not sure how this can be effective.

This gives me another idea. Maybe I will spend a day without any plans and see how it goes.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Angela

Mostly, what I want, I just go ahead and generate immediately. Games are simply fun expressions of whatever results I'm generating. Sometimes those expressions are spread out over time, but an "end result" is not really important; it's the expression that is meaningful for me -- much like dancing. I don't dance in order to get to the end of the dance, but I might choose a game of learning some steps that make up a particular dance, or a game of developing the endurance, power, or new ways to *move* myself and others in my dance.

I see what you are getting at. I think it was the idea behind the article that first attracted me. But I still need to think it through. What if, in a year from now, I don't have any achievements? Would I feel happy?

[Moriarty]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

So far I have been following the well established path in PD i.e. set goals, larger and smaller, conquer your deadlines and accomplish more. Recently I came across Leo Babauta's post of No goals.


the best goal is no goal :zenhabits

It's an intriguing concept and I am thinking of giving it a 30 day trial. My main worry is I will slack off and do nothing.

Wondering if anyone has tried this? If yes, what was the experience like?

Goals are expectations. They are targets set in our minds. Depends on how bad you want it.

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

the best goal is no goal :zenhabits

It's an intriguing concept and I am thinking of giving it a 30 day trial. My main worry is I will slack off and do nothing.

Why do you want to try it? I assume that there is something wrong about your current strategy of having goals.

Do you like to learn? If you do, I don't see how you could slack off and do nothing. If why you are doing everything right now is just because you are supposed to become successful, you might not achieve that with a no-goals-strategy.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Lifeisamazing

Why do you want to try it? I assume that there is something wrong about your current strategy of having goals.

Do you like to learn? If you do, I don't see how you could slack off and do nothing. If why you are doing everything right now is just because you are supposed to become successful, you might not achieve that with a no-goals-strategy.

For one thing, I want to see if having no goals is a better strategy. As far as being successful is concerned, the no goals strategy says that whatever happens, it's not a waste. In effect, there is no pressure of accomplishing anything.

I do understand what they are saying, but I am not sure how to adopt that point of view. How to feel that from within.

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

For one thing, I want to see if having no goals is a better strategy. As far as being successful is concerned, the no goals strategy says that whatever happens, it's not a waste. In effect, there is no pressure of accomplishing anything.

I do understand what they are saying, but I am not sure how to adopt that point of view. How to feel that from within.

Cool stuff. Let us know how your experiment goes.

I think if you want to run this experiment successfully, you should track a) how you enjoy your time, b) how productive you are (getting things done not how many things you do). I would be very interested to hear if you enjoyed your time more without goals and whether you were more productive or less productive. Maybe enjoyment increases but productiveness decreases.

[VinceG]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

Now without goals I fear I may spend all the time on the net or do not do exercise at all. And something like learning a language requires that you do it everyday, you cannot do it once a month when the mood strikes you. Language learning is one of my passions, but it requires discipline to do it everyday. Without that, it will just remain a passion and never get fulfilled.

That's exactly what happens. I have a guitar that I haven't touched in months. I know that I need daily practice to get good at it, but I also know instinctively that now is not the time to be focusing on music. My current inspiration is to get into acting.

What helps you actually accomplish things using this lifestyle is the fact that accomplishment actually takes far less action than we tend to think it does. That's what I meant by opportunism. But it also applies to daily study efforts like language learning and music learning.

Sure, you don't learn anything while you're not actually practicing, but the time you spent doing other things isn't exactly wasted. You're growing as a human being. What that means is that when you finally do come back to your language or instrument, you'll learn faster than would have before.

This is a very real effect, if you dare to actually move into this way of life, committing to it and saying "damn the consequences," you'll find your personal growth tripling in speed, as inspiration is a much better driver of effort than ego, when you think about it.

In fact, it's my belief that if you surf the wave of inspiration perfectly, you'll learn these things faster than you would have if you put daily effort in. Not in the "I'm a good guitarist" or "I'm fluent in X" sense, but in the "I figured what I needed to out to get this job done" sense. You could suddenly catch the inspiration to put together a record, then have one in a couple of weeks, when before you hadn't touched music for months.

Language learning is an excellent example. My Spanish learning comprises the two weeks I spent with a Colombian language tutor. But because it was the time to learn Spanish and I wasn't dividing my attention up elsewhere, those two weeks were as good as two months of regular study, two years for a lot of people. I'm not fluent, in fact I'm very rusty, but languages can be picked back up and re-learned much much faster when needed. And I can still communicate roughly in Spanish whenever I need to.

This effect is one reason why I feel that approaching life in the goalless fashion is ultimately better. By focusing on results rather than the nebulous "goal" of "becoming fluent" or "getting good at something" it forces you to re-evaluate why you're spending your time doing something.

Another is that you get very sensitive to your energy cycles. You learn when it's good to work and when it's good to play. I think many career entertainment types are actually working from the goalless frame. They've gotten so good at marshaling their energy that they can work all the time without getting burned out. So they leave the organization of their busy lives to others and simply move from situation to situation doing what's needed, fully in the present.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

What if, in a year from now, I don't have any achievements? Would I feel happy?

Sounds like feeling happy is what your heart's desire here, is that right?

And feeling happy is not a goal, it's a state -- you can do it anytime you want, right now. Why not just go ahead and feel happy? A year from now, if you're not feeling happy, you could just go ahead and feel happy, whether you've made achievements or not, and you could do that now, and now, and now, too. Or are you not willing to feel happy unless certain requirements are met over time, like doing achievements?

Or maybe it's more like fulfillment and satisfaction, rather than happiness, that you're thinking maybe you must do achievements in order to have. Those, too, are states that you can have right now, but they're also big motivators to have you making choices that work well for you in living a life you love. Do you feel great, fulfilled and satisfied, when you design a goal and do the steps? Does it occur like inspiration and possibility? Or does it occur like yet another item on a long to-do list, a burden, a struggle?

[Mounds]

I create a lot of to-do lists, which in a way are lists of goals. I find those very useful. When it comes to interests, I try not to set goals. I just let the inspiration flow.

The joy of an interest is that you can put it away and not feel guilty about it. When you hammer down goals (like "I will write each day for a year" ), it's easy to start feeling guilty and no longer enjoy the interest. In that respect, I agree with Leo.

There are certain goals in which a bit of guilt is a good thing. For example, my wife has been asking me for months to clean out the basement. I've accumulated a lot of boxes that are currently blocking a fire escape route. That goal will be accomplished today!

Goals for interests? No way! Goals for the mechanics of life? Sure!

-Tim

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by VinceG

That's exactly what happens. I have a guitar that I haven't touched in months. I know that I need daily practice to get good at it, but I also know instinctively that now is not the time to be focusing on music. My current inspiration is to get into acting.

What helps you actually accomplish things using this lifestyle is the fact that accomplishment actually takes far less action than we tend to think it does. That's what I meant by opportunism. But it also applies to daily study efforts like language learning and music learning.

Interesting. Spurts of intense sessions when the inspiration strikes you instead of regular goal oriented approach. I am beginning to think it's worth a try. Full immersion for short time and see where it leads to. What I would really like (my goal in the usual goal oriented state) is to be fluent and to be able to read in that language. Maybe I could do few weeks of sessions in between doing something else.

The other point is important. I think it's also connected to what you ultimately want. Be happier? Grow? Feel satisfied? Lot of food for thought.