Do you think Self Discipline is related to Assetiveness?

[James81]

I'm finally done my first internship (WHEW! I'm insanely tired. ). One of the most common themes/feedback I received throughout the internship (from the several different people who observed me and offered me feedback) was that I had some minor classroom management issues pertaining to behavior, having students respect the boundaries in the classroom, etc. In other words, it wasn't COMPLETELY out of control zoo-ish, but there were some elements that I needed to develop in terms of gaining the students' respect when it came time to do activities.

And now that I've received that feedback, I have been looking specifically at that area in my life and it's been a HUGE eye-opening experience. I'm noticing a couple of major things in the area of assertiveness (especially) and how little I ever truly *demand* (or require) people to respect what I say. I notice it with kids, I notice it with people asking me favors that I really don't have the resources to do (but I do anyway and over-stretch myself), and I notice that I have a hard time telling people NO.

And my stance has been to take a watchful notice of this in my life for a couple of weeks now, and I notice that it's all stuff that I've learned by watching my parents. I watch my parents have these same struggles (telling people no, over-stretching themselves, having no boundaries, etc.). And that's not to say I blame them, that's just to say that I notice I'm still running "old programming" so to speak from watching them and it's time for me to take responsibility for it and upgrade this area of my life.

Anyway, all of that being said, now I'm down to my other observation. The other observation I made of myself is that I have very weak (if any) self-discipline. I hardly ever "fight" for anything and if things get too hard, I have a habit of walking away and quitting more often than not.

I'm curious as to whether anybody else things that assertiveness (i.e. that part of someone that commands respect of others around them) and self-discipline have anything to do with each other, or am I just putting those two things together in my head because I'm observing them at the same time.

I've made a commitment to being more assertive and strengthening my self-discipline.

[taylor]

I could see them being related. It's like you're okay with things the way they are, i.e. you don't have specific standards that motivate your action.

Contrast that with someone who has to have things a certain way. They are going to have the motivation to make it that way, whether that's asserting boundaries or taking action. Of course, they might also be a nervous wreck or frustrated all the time.

I think there's a way to have the best of both worlds, namely applying standards to your own behavior which will allow you to do all you can, rather than an external you can't control which would make you frustrated.

I'm reminded of the Stoics who had this same philosophy of only having personal rather than external standards. They would sometimes feign anger towards another when the situation warranted it (asserting boundaries), while inwardly they were calm because they weren't truly upset as they had no external standard they were attached to being violated.

[quiethumir]

I think self discipline is related with assertiveness, but it's not the be-all and end-all. A lot of people have a lot of self discipline but are not assertive because they may be lacking in self-confidence/esteem. I could be wrong though.

[taylor]

Originally Posted by quiethumir

I think self discipline is related with assertiveness, but it's not the be-all and end-all. A lot of people have a lot of self discipline but are not assertive because they may be lacking in self-confidence/esteem. I could be wrong though.

I think you're right. I can think of a few examples of this from people I know.

[Angela]

I don't think you can assert your way to being respected.

I mean: people who are respected aren't people who demand (or *require*) respect, in my experience; they're people who are generating something that people do respect. Demanding respect is like asking for an apology -- you may get some semblance of it, but it's likely to leave you feeling as disappointed as Michelle Bachmann when they didn't fire Questlove. She's a really good example of what happens when you *demand* the respect that she feels she's due. It just tends to backfire.

Do you start respecting someone you don't respect, because they started demanding or requiring respect? That's never motivated me to respect anyone -- certainly not when I was a teenager! It would have made me laugh at them, I think.

The teachers I have respected, I respected because they listened to me generously, they saw me as both rich potential and a fully realized human being, and mostly, I think, because I felt respected by them. I felt like they respected me enough to not require respect from me, which makes me laugh to realize, now.

I paid interested attention to the teachers who were interesting - teachers who generated something that I felt it was important to get some of. If they had demanded or required respect or attention from me, I'm fairly sure I would have, at least unconsciously, concluded that they didn't have anything authentically interesting or attention-worthy, else they wouldn't have to resort to demanding my interest or attention.

I can see where it might take some self-discipline to develop those kinds of resources as a teacher, but you already have the seeds of it -- you've already got what it takes to interest and engage your students, if you practice doing it, and don't sabotage yourself by telling them they ought to respect you, or that you deserve their respect.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

I don't think you can assert your way to being respected.

I mean: people who are respected aren't people who demand (or *require*) respect, in my experience; they're people who are generating something that people do respect. Demanding respect is like asking for an apology -- you may get some semblance of it, but it's likely to leave you feeling as disappointed as Michelle Bachmann when they didn't fire Questlove. She's a really good example of what happens when you *demand* the respect that she feels she's due. It just tends to backfire.

Do you start respecting someone you don't respect, because they started demanding or requiring respect? That's never motivated me to respect anyone -- certainly not when I was a teenager! It would have made me laugh at them, I think.

The teachers I have respected, I respected because they listened to me generously, they saw me as both rich potential and a fully realized human being, and mostly, I think, because I felt respected by them. I felt like they respected me enough to not require respect from me, which makes me laugh to realize, now.

I paid interested attention to the teachers who were interesting - teachers who generated something that I felt it was important to get some of. If they had demanded or required respect or attention from me, I'm fairly sure I would have, at least unconsciously, concluded that they didn't have anything authentically interesting or attention-worthy, else they wouldn't have to resort to demanding my interest or attention.

I can see where it might take some self-discipline to develop those kinds of resources as a teacher, but you already have the seeds of it -- you've already got what it takes to interest and engage your students, if you practice doing it, and don't sabotage yourself by telling them they ought to respect you, or that you deserve their respect.

I see what you are saying...and I agree...but this thread is a bit larger than that. That is, it's larger just just commanding respect in the classroom. The thing about those management issues that those observing me commented on was that I was working outside of my own paradigm. I was quite literally thrown into the mix of teaching inside of my mentor teacher's paradigm without a chance to really experiment with my own ideas until the very end...but by that time it was too late...I had about two weeks where I was able to pick and choose what *I* wanted to do, but by that time I realized that to set my own tone and my own classroom paradigm at that time would've been beyond the timeframe I had left available to me.

Thus, in that sense, I'm looking forward to having my own classroom so that I can fully put together those engaging things I have planned rather than work inside somebody else's paradigm of teaching.

What I'm getting at in THIS particular thread is that those comments and observations have clued me into some areas in my own personal growth that I think are ripe and ready for me to pay attention to them. The areas of self discipline and assertiveness being the two ring leaders.

For example, during one of my observations (a particular lesson that REALLY belly-flopped), the feedback my adviser gave to me was like bells-and-whistles going off. It dawned on me AFTER that feedback that my students really DIDN'T respect me at that time. But the thing that jarred me the most about that was that I HADN'T EVEN NOTICED. In other words, there were some really disrespectful things going on in my classroom and it didn't dawn on me until my adviser mentioned them that they were disrespectful.

[Angela]

What is it you would be asserting, specifically, if you were being more assertive? (in your view and in the view of the people who give you feedback that you should be more assertive)

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

What is it you would be asserting, specifically, if you were being more assertive? (in your view and in the view of the people who give you feedback that you should be more assertive)

Ha! I'm glad you're back. You're always good at asking thought-provoking questions.

That being said...the answer to your question is....I don't know.

I think that's what *I* am asking with this thread.

I think that now that I've chosen the route of the teacher profession, I'm now in a position where my job description involves getting a lot of different people to function together smoothly. And part of that involves cultivating at atmosphere of mutual respect.

And, as always, before I can even begin to have influence in this area on public level, I feel like mastering it on a personal level is key. And when I think about that, the two things that come up for me involve self-discipline (or rather, the habits that move me toward specific goals despite obstacles) and assertiveness (the ability to wield respect).

And, in the process of working around that, I see that this is an area that I've always shirked away from. Specifically my old habit is that when I meet resistance, I shut down and I'll change direction -- sometimes to my own detriment -- rather than continue to move forward. In other words, there are some things that are worth fighting for, but I *don't* fight for them because the effort may be too great or I just simply don't know *how* to fight for them.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Ha! I'm glad you're back. You're always good at asking thought-provoking questions.

Thank you.

....when I think about that, the two things that come up for me involve self-discipline (or rather, the habits that move me toward specific goals despite obstacles) and assertiveness (the ability to wield respect).

I understand what you mean by self-discipline (the habits that move you toward specific goals despite obstacles), but I don't get what you mean when you equate assertiveness with "the ability to wield respect." To me, assertiveness is just, asserting what's there for you to assert, and maybe being a stand for what's important about what you're saying. What does this mean, "to wield respect"? (I'm not clear on how respect relates to assertiveness, I mean.)

When the feedbackers say they'd like to see you being more assertive, do they mean they'd like to see you more in control of the classroom?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Thank you.



I understand what you mean by self-discipline (the habits that move you toward specific goals despite obstacles), but I don't get what you mean when you equate assertiveness with "the ability to wield respect." To me, assertiveness is just, asserting what's there for you to assert, and maybe being a stand for what's important about what you're saying. What does this mean, "to wield respect"? (I'm not clear on how respect relates to assertiveness, I mean.)

Yeah, I'd say to wield respect would be to be a stand for what's important (whether it's something I say, do, or believe in). That's probably a good definition for it.

Up until now, I've been quite chameleon-like in my dealings with people (maybe that's not evident with my online presence being the way I am ). I never really *show my hand* (so to speak). I tend to just go with the flow or allow others to lead in my interactions. I can actually think of a good example of what I mean, actually.

I never really told my family that, in the last election, I voted for Obama. And when they complain about Obama (and boy do they ever complain about him), I never really disagree with it. The *most* bold I'll get with asserting my political beliefs in my family is that I'll diss Republican leaders. But I do it under the banner of "I hate ALL politicians democrat OR republican."

A part of me would like to be more assertive with what I believe politically (with my family), but there is another part of me that thinks "what's the use?" So, rather than get into it and "stand up" for my beliefs (so to speak), I'll just ignore it or divert away from political discussions.

Now, if it were JUST political discussions, then it would be no big deal. I don't really *care* about politics enough to be assertive about them (or assert my opinions). But I do this same sort of thing in other areas of my life. I never really SPEAK UP because of that little "what's the use?" voice.

Does that make more sense? (And I know that's funny because online...with strangers...I'm just the opposite. I'll say exactly what's on my mind with no reservations. )

[Angela]

What IS the use of being a stand for what you think/feel is important? What's the purpose of that?

It's not really to get respect, is it? Your family may not respect your support of Obama -- and I know from experience that just because you be a stand for something, people won't necessarily respect that, or you.

Or maybe it is to get respect -- is the purpose of standing for what's important to respect yourself? (Now, that really would tend to inspire respect from others, I think.)

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

What IS the use of being a stand for what you think/feel is important? What's the purpose of that?

I think it's to be heard. To have a voice. Speaking in such a way that other people LISTEN to me. In the classroom this would look something like this...I'm in the middle of a lesson and some students in the back are talking. I call them out to stop talking so that others can listen, and they stop. I turn around and they start talking again. And this is where I talked myself out of doing something about it. I did not know how to make that stop and get those students to stop talking so that the students who WERE listening and benefiting from my instruction could get something out of it. It eventually got to where I'd throw them out of the classroom.

Bottom line was that I didn't have a clear idea of how to manage such a situation, so I struggled with it, only about half managing it with sporadic results.

One of my students gave me feedback when I left. He said "One thing you could improve on is to know when to be mean." I chuckled at that, but he nailed on the same type of feedback that my observers were touching on.

I dunno, there's lots of different elements intertwined here. Bottom line, though, is as I said. I would like to have people respect me, I would like to have people want to listen when I speak, and I'd like to be able to better manage conflict-type of situations.

[Angela]

I think the key to resolving conflict is finding the shared purpose. Once you find out the purpose you both have in common, then all you have to do is chunk back down as far as you still agree.

If a teacher is mean, he may be heard, but I don't think he's going to be much listened to or respected. I'm far more interested in generously listening to and respecting people who are courteous to me and operate with a win/win intention, aren't you? But maybe by "mean," that kid meant "hypnotically authoritative"? which might involve being somewhat intense sometimes.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

I think the key to resolving conflict is finding the shared purpose. Once you find out the purpose you both have in common, then all you have to do is chunk back down as far as you still agree.

If a teacher is mean, he may be heard, but I don't think he's going to be much listened to or respected. I'm far more interested in generously listening to and respecting people who are courteous to me and operate with a win/win intention, aren't you? But maybe by "mean," that kid meant "hypnotically authoritative"? which might involve being somewhat intense sometimes.

Yeah, that's what I was getting at. I didn't mean (nor did he) to ACTUALLY be mean. That's why I chuckled because I knew exactly what he meant, and so did he, but he articulated in the best way a 12 year old boy knows how.

In terms of management, what he was really saying was "Hey, man, sometimes you gotta make a decision that's the best decision for the class as a WHOLE, even if it means making one particular student angry or being firm with that one student."

And again, that's what I'm getting at. Willing to assert myself in the way that I feel lead to assert, even if it means some people disagree or are not necessarily happy, but doing so because I feel the decision is best for the group as a whole. Or, on a more personal level, knowing when to speak up and stand my ground.