What do you expect from a debate?

[cacheborn]

I have been on quite a few online forums and there are some things that seem to be common. Maybe they are essential features of human nature. Whenever a debate, especially on an emotionally charged issue gets beyond a point, people start engaging in it with more and more enthusiasm. Sometimes, it gets derailed completely off topic, people may get personal.

What do expect from a debate? The next person is as devoted to his/her opinions as you are. Do you expect to produce a change? That happens very rarely. I think a debate is a lost cause once it goes beyond a certain point and both parties are not even willing to consider the other point of view. (In the movie Hitchhiker's Guide, there a gun from which if you shoot at a person, he will immediately see things from your point of view. )

I must confess that I am quite lazy in the aspect. The first sign of debate going forever and I bow out. I feel there are more creative things to be done.

[ZephyrusX]

I think debates are a wonderful way of developing different communication styles and gaining the ability to shift from style to style in order to get the results you want. If I can make it out of a debate at least understanding the other person and not having the thread derail into personal accusations, I think the debate has been a success.

I also learn a lot from them as everyone is out to prove that their position is the 'right one'. So there tends to be a lot of information and links exchanged.

I generally don't harbour the expectation of 'converting' the other people any more. I use to think this way, but alas, I've taken part in too many debates to really see this as being realistic any more. In a way, it was sort of an 'ass' expectation as well as the underlying reasoning is that I am 'right' the other person is 'wrong'.

In some cases, I think it is worth taking a stand for certain causes. If someone came on here making anti-homophobic statements, I would call them on it and even engage in a debate knowing that the other person probably won't change his/her mind. But taking a stand for a cause is more about presenting another more empowering vision of things for the lurkers who may be susceptible to the beliefs of the hatemonger.

Of course, there is also the off chance that you will change another person's perspective and perhaps even change your own perspective for the better.

[Somnium Dico]

The point of a debate, at least at websites like this, shouldn't be to prove your point or force your views onto other people. It's not about conversion. Look at the masthead, after all. It says PERSONAL development.

For me, these debates are a way of affirming and growing into what I believe. I'm not here to convert others, be converted, or to hold hands and talk about how right we all are "in our own way." It's to have someone bash down everything I know, to present me with evidence of how wrong I am so I may discard the falsehoods and find what is really the truth. In essence, I'm here to better myself, it has nothing to do with the other person.

If I make a friend or have a fun argument along the way, hey, it's a good day.

Also, I expect to be treated like AN ADULT. I don't need you to tell me how it's okay to believe what I do, ma'am or mister. I already know that, I'm a 21-year-old man who's fully capable of handling conflict and disagreements. I don't need your permission to express how I see things, and you sure as hell don't need mine.

So let's cut the touchy-feely crap and get to debatin'. I promise, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean we have to hate each other, okay?

[cacheborn]

I agree with both of you that debates are good for all the reasons mentioned. I am talking about the debates that go on and on for 20 pages with no end in sight. In such cases, I prefer to use my time elsewhere. Usually this happens in cases where the issues do not have a clear cut answer.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Somnium Dico

So let's cut the touchy-feely crap and get to debatin'. I promise, just because I disagree with you doesn't mean we have to hate each other, okay?

I did not notice any touch-feely crap here. Maybe if I had included a kitten...

[Somnium Dico]

Originally Posted by cacheborn

I agree with both of you that debates are good for all the reasons mentioned. I am talking about the debates that go on and on for 20 pages with no end in sight. In such cases, I prefer to use my time elsewhere. Usually this happens in cases where the issues do not have a clear cut answer.

Let's be honest, if something goes on for 20 pages or so with no end in sight, it's not a debate anymore. It's a bunch of kids yelling at each other about who's most right. Hell, most of the time there aren't even any new arguments after page 5, just reiterations of what's already been said over and over again in the hopes that if you're the loudest and most opinionated, you win.

There's an art to knowing when to call the debate a dud and move on. Personally, I call it when I see that no one's bothering to prove the other side wrong or give examples that moot the opposition's points. At that point you're just going "YOU'RE STUPID FOR THINKING THAT WAY!" with no reasonable reason to say such a thing. If you can't agree when you're proven wrong but give another example that still shows your side is strong, it might be a good idea to say "Okay, you got me there. I'll have to think on this" and go cool off.

It doesn't mean you have to drop everything you've ever believed, kids.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by Somnium Dico

Let's be honest, if something goes on for 20 pages or so with no end in sight, it's not a debate anymore. It's a bunch of kids yelling at each other about who's most right. Hell, most of the time there aren't even any new arguments after page 5, just reiterations of what's already been said over and over again in the hopes that if you're the loudest and most opinionated, you win.

There's an art to knowing when to call the debate a dud and move on. Personally, I call it when I see that no one's bothering to prove the other side wrong or give examples that moot the opposition's points. At that point you're just going "YOU'RE STUPID FOR THINKING THAT WAY!" with no reasonable reason to say such a thing. If you can't agree when you're proven wrong but give another example that still shows your side is strong, it might be a good idea to say "Okay, you got me there. I'll have to think on this" and go cool off.

It doesn't mean you have to drop everything you've ever believed, kids.

My point exactly. Very well put. Unfortunately this does not seem to happen as often as it should.

[ZephyrusX]

I think it may also happen simply due to a disconnect in communication. If you are willing to change your style of communication, you might get results that you are looking for. But yah, in general, if nothing new is being offered (either in terms of argument or style of communication) and there is no genuine rapport between participants, I don't really know what the point is. I think it is fuelled by accusations and a perspective that demands the other person to take responsibility for his/her behaviour, but fails to take into account self-responsibility and being at cause for your own desired end.

[cacheborn]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

I think it may also happen simply due to a disconnect in communication. If you are willing to change your style of communication, you might get results that you are looking for. But yah, in general, if nothing new is being offered (either in terms of argument or style of communication) and there is no genuine rapport between participants, I don't really know what the point is. I think it is fuelled by accusations and a perspective that demands the other person to take responsibility for his/her behaviour, but fails to take into account self-responsibility and being at cause for your own desired end.

Very true. In most cases people take it personally and in most cases it is personal because the people who are making it personal have been at the receiving end at some point of time. Ralph Wado Emerson put it beautifully and it just goes on to show his spectacular insight.

Let me never fall into the vulgar mistake of dreaming that I am persecuted whenever I am contradicted.

[Curious cat]

I like participating in a discussion, i may learn something from time to time.

But debates, not so much. The idea of a debate carries with it the notion of right vs. wrong, and people will almost always take it too personally and it just becomes an online fight, which isn't a productive or even good use of my time and energy. I don't need to invite drama in my life, especially not with strangers i have never met, it isn't worth it.

Having said that, i may occasionally jump in a heated debate if it is something i feel very strongly about *cough, abortion thread, cough*. But the same principle applies even then. If there is a lack of respect and it's just one big cat fight where opposing sides only serve to tear each other down, i will just bow out and not feed into it further. I guess time to back away from that thread again. It had a good day yesterday .

[Somnium Dico]

Haha, wouldn't it be hilarious if, like, we got into a big, pointless debate over what debates are necessary for on this thread?

But no, that would never happen.

...

Right?

[elucidate]

Originally Posted by Somnium Dico

Haha, wouldn't it be hilarious if, like, we got into a big, pointless debate over what debates are necessary for on this thread?

But no, that would never happen.

...

Right?

Wrong? That would not be funny at all, it would be silly and the reason is that pointless debating over debating is beneath people on a Personal Development for Smart People forum.

So...you're wrong.

[nothuman]

The risk of falling into the void of neverending debate is a lot greater in a forum like this.....than say a forum discussing farming machinery.
People are often talking outside of their own experience, so it can become a battle of who knows and can communicate the most 'stuff' as opposed to leaning on experience. It can get very heated because if you don't have experience to draw on you are simply defending a belief and in doing that you will get defensive as there is a real risk that someone may overwhelm you with their own belief. If you have lived it you simply don't give a toss.
I too shy away from heavy debate in favour of more fun stuff.

[Andrew Gubb]

I agree with the OP, I don't think there is anything to be gotten from a debate once it's past a "certain point". No one ever changes their ideas if they don't want to, and taking up a stance of attacking and defending points of view puts them in a vibe where they really aren't open to doing so.

[Lifeisamazing]

Originally Posted by Somnium Dico

Let's be honest, if something goes on for 20 pages or so with no end in sight, it's not a debate anymore. It's a bunch of kids yelling at each other about who's most right. Hell, most of the time there aren't even any new arguments after page 5, just reiterations of what's already been said over and over again in the hopes that if you're the loudest and most opinionated, you win.

Very deep and intelligent discussions can get very in depth without repeating things too much. By the way, when you don't agree on something, the same argument needs to be repeated in different ways for all sides to understand. I'm actually never disappointed with long debates but rather with short ones -- people usually quit very easily.

[Lifeisamazing]

I think the point of a debate is to make yourself (and hopefully others) to think intensely. I don't really want to get into debates with a goal to change others' viewpoint, it's to learn more about a particular topic I find important and interesting.

[ZephyrusX]

I dont really like the idea of a debate either as there are connotations of a winning side and a losing side. If you reframe the debate as a discussion, then may be you would be more inclined to see the other position.

Having said that, there are topics that I do feel very strongly about and feel that there is a right and a wrong position (i.e abortion ). Saying that there is no right or wrong in all situations makes morality meaningless, and essentially, I wont respect the right to freedom of thought and expression if the consequence of that thought and expression is to limit the rights of minorities. To put it another way, if someone came on here and said that homosexuals were disgusting and not even human, I wouldnt just sit there and think, Oh well, this guy has the absolute right to freedom of thought so he is aloud to express whatever he may like. What can I do about it. I dont believe that. Not if thought and expression is used to arbitrarily strip another population of their agency and humanity.

Still, it is not as if I cannot take the other positions point of view into account in order to understand how the topic is more complex than I originally believed.

Originally Posted by Curious cat

I like participating in a discussion, i may learn something from time to time.

But debates, not so much. The idea of a debate carries with it the notion of right vs. wrong, and people will almost always take it too personally and it just becomes an online fight, which isn't a productive or even good use of my time and energy. I don't need to invite drama in my life, especially not with strangers i have never met, it isn't worth it.

Having said that, i may occasionally jump in a heated debate if it is something i feel very strongly about *cough, abortion thread, cough*. But the same principle applies even then. If there is a lack of respect and it's just one big cat fight where opposing sides only serve to tear each other down, i will just bow out and not feed into it further. I guess time to back away from that thread again. It had a good day yesterday .

[Acting Like Godot]

Often when I am debating with X, I am actually producing content for others to read. Not so much trying to convince X himself.

It is like cross-examining a witness in court. Actually what I ask the witness and the responses I want to get out of him are not for the purpose of influencing the witness one way or the other. The purpose is for the judge's consumption.

[Criseyde]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Often when I am debating with X, I am actually producing content for others to read. Not so much trying to convince X himself.

It is like cross-examining a witness in court. Actually what I ask the witness and the responses I want to get out of him are not for the purpose of influencing the witness one way or the other. The purpose is for the judge's consumption.

Exactly.

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Saying that there is no right or wrong in all situations makes morality meaningless

The problem with right vs wrong debates is that each side will have such strong conviction of their individual and subjective morals that people generally just buttheads and hold onto their stance.

The context of morality that i am touching on is within the scope of a forum debate only, where the debates that take place here largely contain personal views only, without actual legal ramifications. i am not referring to the wider context of societal codes of conduct or any other legal platforms, because i agree this needs a right/wrong or nothing will get done.

To put it another way, if someone came on here and said that homosexuals were disgusting and not even human, I wouldnt just sit there and think, Oh well, this guy has the absolute right to freedom of thought so he is aloud to express whatever he may like. What can I do about it. I dont believe that. Not if thought and expression is used to arbitrarily strip another population of their agency and humanity.

If such a person said such hurtful and hateful things here on this forum, people are certainly entitled to give him/her feedback (and i have no doubt many will, provided s/he isn't banned first). But the way i see it is that probably nothing will change, it will most likely fall on deaf ears.

I find that when the person i am talking to is clearly not open to external feedback, there isn't anything i can do about the situation and to engage in further dialogue with these types of individual, i am somehow feeding into their ego. i would rather not give them more power over my life. Well that is how i prioritise my life anyway, and eveyone can and will freely choose how they spend their time.

Still, it is not as if I cannot take the other positions point of view into account in order to understand how the topic is more complex than I originally believed.

Having an open mind like this going into any discussion is a great attitude. Most people just want to be acknowledged and probably don't expect others to conform and change their viewpoint anyway. Well, i coold be wrong there, right?

[Curious cat]

Originally Posted by Acting Like Godot

Often when I am debating with X, I am actually producing content for others to read. Not so much trying to convince X himself.

It is like cross-examining a witness in court. Actually what I ask the witness and the responses I want to get out of him are not for the purpose of influencing the witness one way or the other. The purpose is for the judge's consumption.

I enjoy reading those types of discussions. They can be very informative, and a good place to start if i was researching a particular topic.

[James81]

A debate is yet another avenue of self definition. It's why debates can get so heated...because we are defining ourselves by our beliefs.