Article: 7 reasons why you probably shouldn't play computer games

[Agota]

Hello!

I've just relaunched my blog with an article on computer games.

I think you guys might find it interesting, since many people here are both into computer games and into personal development/spirituality andin the article I write about the effects gaming has on those things. I wasn't sure where to put it, so I made a thread in personal effectiveness, please feel free to move it

7 Reasons why you probably shouldn't play computer games

..I guess this article won't make me popular among gamers here, though

[xiahoudun]

I'm a gamer, if it's seen simply as a form of entertainment and we put the same mental filters for violence that we'd put with movies. How can they really be so bad?

[PraetorianX]

We may have to agree to disagree on this. I know some of the most creative people in my life who are gamers and are very interesting people.

I am a gamer and I consider myself to have a pretty balanced life. Now I can't say I am the most spiritual of people, but I have a sense of religious theology.

Anyway, I do see valid points in your article, but I can't say I agree with it all. But I do believe the health thing.

[OptimistPrime]

Agota: I thought you made some interesting points, though it seemed to me like in some cases you generalized about all games when you really were talking about Massively Multiplayer Online Games and First-Person Shooters. Those are some of the most popular genres, for sure, but there are others where the points you made don't apply so neatly.

For example, regarding your point about acting out simulated acts of violence: What about when the combat/killing is pretty abstract, like Mario stomping on an enemy in Super Mario Bros.? At a certain point, the violence in a video game can become pretty abstract, and I see it as being no more an act of violence than, say, fencing. Do you believe that people who engage in sports like fencing are accumulating bad karma because they're acting out simulated combat? Edit: And that isn't a rhetorical question with a strawman argument in it; I'm genuinely curious.

[Theseus]

Hi Agota!
Yes, your article made me want to reply. I think you are right about putting more importance to real life than to playing games and that been addicted to videogames can affect your health and life in general. But isn´t that the same for any kind of addiction? you lose your balance in life.
I have been playing videogames since I was a child and yeah, there was a moment when I became too addicted to it, specially to MMOs and my real life paid the "price". But I also have enjoyed spending time with my friends playing games and shooting each other or beating each other in fighting games when we hang out and we don´t hate or want to kill each other because of what happens in the game.
And also have enjoyed great stories and have great memories of a lot of games.
Now I am more a casual player, playing a lot less and choosing more what I want to play and enjoying it when I play.
Also a lot of what you say about videogames can also apply to movies, tv shows or even books. What I believe is that it doesn´t matter the medium what matters is what the person does with it.

[ZephyrusX]

I just skimmed the article. To be honest, I didn't like it. You bring up the same old arguments without contributing anything original and offering a more balance and critical perspective. Gaming can be beneficial or maladaptive depending upon how you use the medium; there is no inherent value in the medium. You say that gaming stifles critical thought, self-awareness, spirituality. If you really feel that way, you should check out role playing games. They come in my many different forms with different levels of participating and interactivity.

Some people on here got their understanding of humanism from history class and primary sources. I got my understanding of it from video games and it has gone on to shape my values and behaviour to a significant degree.

[Bradshaw]

Some valid points. But the article is one-sided. Where are the benefits? You're probably right for games like World of Warcraft though as well as the common arcade games. That game really is boring and many of the brainless arcade games are also very meaningless.

However, I can honestly say that the top players at thinking games, like strategy games, often share one trait in common:

They think really, really, really freakin' fast.

Many of the top strategy gamers also have gone out to be very successful in other areas like business. That tends to happen when you're a fast, strategic thinker--not to mention that such people also tend to be good at using computers.

I can't see anything bad about being a really, really fast thinker. (And if you've played games like Starcraft, Warcraft III, Age of Empires II, etc, you have to be THINKING REALLY HARD all the time if you want to compete against the other fast, effective thinkers.)

These games require immense concentration to play at the top levels, or even at just expert level. You have to think, think and think some more.

I would honestly argue that certain strategy video games, when played against other live players at a competitive level, is one of the best ways to become a fast, fast thinker.

--

The other benefit is learning English. I didn't learn English in school, I learned English by playing computer games and communicating with other gamers through the Internet. RPG games with rich stories teach you vast amounts of English.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

The other benefit is learning English. I didn't learn English in school, I learned English by playing computer games and communicating with other gamers through the Internet. RPG games with rich stories teach you vast amounts of English.

Heh, according to my parents, I taught myself to read by reading my older brother's Nintendo Power magazines.

[ZephyrusX]

Michael_Chui actually posted something very interesting about WoW. I do think that games have the capacity to shape our values and ontology of the world. I'll try finding the link to the original thread.

Just to add to your points, games can develop hand-eye coordination and... hmmm... may be spatial recognition (I'm not sure if that is the correct word). I use to play Kyoodai Mahjong a lot and I discovered afterwards that I can spot spatial patterns freakishly fast. The last time I picked up a 'Where's Waldo' book, I could find him within 10 seconds. I completed the entire book inside the store within 5 minutes. 'Where's Wal... Oh there he is! Where's.. Oh There!'. It was sort of freaky.

Whether or not that has any real world application is another story though.

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

Some valid points. But the article is one-sided. Where are the benefits? You're probably right for games like World of Warcraft though as well as the common arcade games. That game really is boring and many of the brainless arcade games are also very meaningless.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I don't play games, but I used to when I was a teen, although not nearly as much as the average person. I agree with what you say, and I still have a pretty good imagination today mostly because my mother didn't buy me any games until I was at least 10 or so. I don't remember playing too many shooting games, mostly racing games and snowboarding games, not to mention Crash Bandicoot. I mostly liked playing sports games, not violence games, although I wasn't as good as my peers at them, mostly due to the brain tumor I was unaware of, and the aftermath of it. But I still enjoyed playing those games with friends, hardly ever solitarily.

Man, we used to have a blast playing NFL Blitz on Nintendo 64. We would have tournaments and crown champions...man, that was so much fun. But I haven't played any kind of video game in a very long time, mostly due to the fact that I get eye strain very easily now and it's not worth the pain to play a game that doesn't really matter. That, and I see it for what it is, pure entertainment without much thought. If I want to be entertained now, I'll watch a thought-provoking show like South Park or read a good book, like Rant: The Oral Biography of Buster Casey.

Oh, and I almost forgot...really great article...I totally agree with what you said in it, and it was well thought-out...

[Cado]

None of these arguments are particularly substantial, and some of them are downright false. "Video games are addictive..." so is food, and any number of items which trigger strong chemical reactions in the brain.

Actually, that's not quite right-addiction implies dependency, meaning you can't stop the behavior without weaning off of it gradually (if you want to avoid nasty-or fatal-repercussions). You can stop playing games cold-turkey and there won't be any side-effects aside from an adjustment period, and that's only if they're a major part of your life. The word "addiction" is thrown around too freely these days and it muddles every argument surrounding addictive vs. non-addictive behavior.

"They damage your character"-really? That's wholly subjective, and there's no solid data which indicates that there's any truth to that statement. In fact I can attest to the fact that feeding my drive for achievement through virtual means allowed it to grow to a point where it branched out into real life. One example, the massively multiplayer game, provides fertile ground for anyone who wants to practice leadership. If you can wrangle 10 or more people together at a scheduled time, keep the peace, and push everyone to perform well enough to conquer the challenges you face, then you'll be able to take that experience (along with the confidence gained from it) and apply it to other endeavors.

"Negative Karma"-I don't believe in karma, or rather I think of it solely in terms of cause and effect, and I've repeatedly argued that it's something that's more open to interpretation than people realize. Put simply, if it does exist it applies on such a large scale that trying to take it into account when making decisions is paralyzing. It's simply not useful on a human level.

Plus the good vs. bad interpretation of karma isn't any different than doctrines of heaven and hell, except instead of a wrathful deity doling out punishment it's based on what you actually do. The most sensible interpretation I've heard is that karma is identification with your deeds and thus, be it good or bad (which are wholly subjective), accumulation of karma prevents you from achieving enlightenment. The only freedom is dis-identification with the ego, everything else is arbitrary.

So my honest feedback is that this is a very poorly constructed article which tries to lend opinions greater credence by catering to common societal perceptions toward a new and, to some, frightening medium. The same thing happened with books, the same thing happened with music and film and television, there's no reason to suppose that games are somehow worse when all those other things (especially books) have proven their worth despite a dearth of commercial trash.

In closing, I'd offer this video as a rebuttal: Gaming Can Make a Better World

[hurfrd]

that's funny. i played video games without stopping for 3 days wanting to increase the level of my character until i had to practice healing. i thought i would be terrible when i get there to practice healing but i felt so concentrated. i could hear voices and i got messages! i was right too!
then my teacher told me i went up a level like in a game. i was surpised that she pick that up because that's exactly what i did.
maybe because my character is a super hero in a game that battles bad guys. by thinking about it day and night,concentrating it. my desire want to level was manifested into this reality.
you have no idea. when you are playing game you mind if absolutely focused like in a mediated trance state!
i'm happy

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

The other benefit is learning English. I didn't learn English in school, I learned English by playing computer games and communicating with other gamers through the Internet. RPG games with rich stories teach you vast amounts of English.

I'm a native english speaker and I was taught to read phonetically around the age of 5 or 6. I rarely, if ever, read books through the age of 9 or 10. Even when it came to school I usually found some way to skirt around doing the actual work. Despite this, I've always been very good at reading and I've never had any trouble discerning how to pronounce and define new words, and games played a large part in that. I'd consume strategy guides, I'd seek out games with long and intricate storylines, I'd dissect and examine character tropes and motivations-so not only did they make me a better reader, but they helped feed my innate desire for creative and philosophical thought.

Yes, there were other mediums for that, but I was passionate about games, I loved them in a way nothing else could match and so every attempt to force me down another path never paid off. I've since expanded my horizons but I know where I came from and I see a lot of potential within the medium to take us places we could never go with prior media. Imagine if, say, someone made a game about the journey to enlightenment and the challenges faced along the way, including defining what enlightenment is. It could make esoteric and hard-to-grasp concepts accessible to a whole new audience because it would provide a simulated experience to go with the theory, thus providing a stronger grounding in the principles being presented.

If you'd given me a history book about the Civil War when I was a kid I would have ignored it. If you had given me a tactical strategy game I would have been able to list off all the major dates, prominent figures on both sides, and I would have learned how to strategize on top of that. In short, it's not the medium or even specific games that are problematic, it's how people use it.

[Shift]

About a year ago, I scrutinized my life, looking for anything that didn't fit the accepted model of personal development. I replaced novels with general information books, movies and games with monetary side projects and exercise, started waking up at 5:00AM, and did pretty much anything else that brought me closer to a personal development machine.

It took me about a month before I realized that I'd become what I fear the most: the living dead. Every single action I took was put under the microscope, to see if it was actually contributing to my development or a colossal waste of time.

Thank God I burnt out. An imbalanced life is an imbalanced life. Too much of anything causes imbalance. It's up to you to decide that balance is.

The problem with these types of articles is that they treat an activity as if it exists in a vacuum. If everything in this article is true, I should be an addicted, unhealthy man who has nothing to show for his hours spent and can't think for himself. Could the same be said for some people on this personal development forum? An imbalance is the problem, not video games.

What I think would be an interesting article is showing how video games benefit a person's development.

[ZephyrusX]

Hmmm *rubs chin*. If we put half the world's population onto rocket ships, may be we can solve our problems. Where is supertom?

Originally Posted by Cado

In closing, I'd offer this video as a rebuttal: Gaming Can Make a Better World

I would like to see more teachers/professors utilizing games, similar to the ones at the end of the video, in order to pass on instructional material and values. As it is now, I can only think of one school that setup an elaborate game in order to teach World's Systems Theory to undergraduate students. It makes learning a hell of a lot more interesting than listening to the prof lecture.

[ZephyrusX]

Re: values and world views in video games

We talked a little bit about it in this thread.

What kind of char do you play in RPGs? (mage or fighter, good or evil...)

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Michael_Chui actually posted something very interesting about WoW. I do think that games have the capacity to shape our values and ontology of the world. I'll try finding the link to the original thread.

[VinceG]

I agree with most of your points, I just don't see why computer games are any better or worse in this regard than other things that tend to stagnate our growth, yes, I'm looking at you, martial arts.

I stopped doing martial arts for much the same reasons. I realized they were giving me the appearance of growth when actually I was just training my body skills. The expense, almost on par with video gaming, was keeping me from taking other, more fulfilling classes, such as improv comedy lessons. And I think martial arts can be worse in the regard of hurting your character than computer games!

And ultimately I decided that I didn't really want to associate with most of the people that took martial arts. I found dance to attract a much more grounded sort of person.

I actually think there's a lot that can be good about video games, just as there's a lot that can be good about martial arts. Puzzle games can work your brain in ways that are difficult to train otherwise. And many games have stories that are as unique and interesting as those you'd find in books.

On the whole, I'd say that martial arts is a little better than gaming, though not by much.

[OptimistPrime]

This may have been covered in Cado's video (I haven't watched it yet, though I plan to), but I also just read in the news the other day that gamers "solved the structure of a retrovirus enzyme whose configuration had stumped scientists for more than a decade."

[Shift]

I will definitely say there is an opportunity cost to playing video games. However, as I alluded to above, there is also an opportunity cost to reading this very forum. I've now been on here for 45 minutes, browsing and responding to the odd post. What do I have to show for it? Nadda

Agota, I think you've got mojo as a writer. What I would love to read is an article that surprises me with a fresh perspective. An interesting angle might be how too much PD can screw you over.

As an interesting parallel, check out fertilizer. Add the right amount of fertilizer to a plant and the plant will thrive. Add too much and the plant can no longer draw water from the soil. I think of personal development in the same way.

Anyhow, good night.

[ZephyrusX]

Just an interesting thought: I find it interesting how the people who are proponents of video games are taking the medium and exploring ways that they can make the world a better place with it. Whereas the opponents of video games are simply shooting the medium down on very shaky grounds.

In my mind, this more or less amounts to seeing the potential in things and having the creativity and the optimism to take that medium to its limit. I think these are admirable qualities to cultivate on the road of personal development. It requires innovation, it requires leadership, it requires free thought.

Its one thing to simply dislike a medium; it is quite another thing to shoot that medium down completely.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by Shift

However, as I alluded to above, there is also an opportunity cost to reading this very forum. I've now been on here for 45 minutes, browsing and responding to the odd post. What do I have to show for it? Nadda

Personally I measure the value of any activity (in terms of its positive impact on the world) by looking to how much it resonates with me intuitively. That's the main reason I haven't played video games much since the PSX/N64 era; it just hasn't resonated with me very often since then.

Reading and posting on this forum usually does, though. There have been times when it hasn't, and the whole vibe is very different. Like I'm just visiting the site out of habit, even though I'd really rather be doing something else. In those instances, I just take a break from the forum until it resonates with me again.

[VinceG]

Some of the coolest things I've come across were video game concepts. There's this one team of brothers who are creating an entire world generator, that you can play in. The scope of this project is staggering. And they're hard at work making it a reality. They've both quit their jobs, donations fund them.

[OptimistPrime]

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Just an interesting thought: I find it interesting how the people who are proponents of video games are taking the medium and exploring ways that they can make the world a better place with it. Whereas the opponents of video games are simply shooting the medium down on very shaky grounds.

On a tangential note, I suspect that we'll eventually see the same thing happen in porn. I doubt that people who want to either ban it or get everybody to voluntarily stop watching it will ever succeed in doing so. But I wouldn't be surprised if, at some point during this century, some innovative young people come up with ways of reducing the dysfunction that exists within the industry at this time.

[NoJobRob]

I guess I'll just rehash what others have said. LOL

I play a few computer games but I don't believe they have any negative effects on my life. I have a very well rounded life, at least I think so. I have my work, and I'm working on a huge project with one of my trader friends who is getting into the broker business, and I have plenty of outdoor activity and exercise. I also have a healthy and fulfilling family life too, since my family lives on the same island I do. I have no love life but that's by choice. I just have some things I want to accomplish before getting involved with anyone. As far as my spirituality goes, well, I have my beliefs and that's that. I also have hobbies like guitar/music, and studying things that fascinate me like ancient history. I'd say I'm pretty well rounded. Video games are just a way for me to chill for a little bit every day, besides sitting on the deck with a book with my awesome ocean view. Hey, it beats drinking...

[ssandra]

6 Ways Video Games Are Saving Mankind | Cracked.com

[momo313]

Just a quick tip on marketing and headline titles: take an affirmative stand to generate polarity amongst your audience and thus greater discussion.

You don't see Steve writing headlines like "10 Reasons Why You Probably Shouldn't Get a Job". He takes a firm stance with headlines like "10 Reasons You Should Never Get a Job". The content of the article should then follow suit.

[Spinoza]

Originally Posted by ssandra

6 Ways Video Games Are Saving Mankind | Cracked.com

Wait...your a sub and a gamer?

[Mariana Trench]

Originally Posted by momo313

Just a quick tip on marketing and headline titles: take an affirmative stand to generate polarity amongst your audience and thus greater discussion.

You don't see Steve writing headlines like "10 Reasons Why You Probably Shouldn't Get a Job". He takes a firm stance with headlines like "10 Reasons You Should Never Get a Job". The content of the article should then follow suit.

This stood out to me. "Probably" is a very weak word in this context; if you're going to judge something you'll get a better reaction if you really commit. (Especially since you pointed to no positives in your article, nothing to indicate you do think there are circumstances where games are a good thing -- the 'probably' is entirely unwarranted.)

But, though I'm not much of a gamer (a few games have interested me and I've actually wanted to get into it more) I always laugh when a particular medium is judged as a whole. It reminds me of reading Anne of Green Gables, I believe it was (or maybe it was Little House), in which fiction was judged by a character as immoral for it being "lies". I think, frankly, this is the sort of thing we'll look back and laugh at as silly opinions of the early 2000s.

My question is would you consider beating someone in the street with a baseball bat and stealing their car a negative action? What about killing someone? What about killing thousands of people? I really do hope that you consider all these actions negative and immoral and wouldn’t do anything like that. When why is it moral to engage in the same actions in the virtual world?

This made me scratch my head-- it's because no one is actually effected.

No one has to turn up at the hospital moaning in pain with broken bones, no one looses their car, and there aren't a thousand grieving widows. While I can certainly see an argument against the psychological effects of pretending to engage in those actions, the fact that it was even asked "Why is it moral in the virtual world?" baffles me. But I got sick of the "morality is about stains on my soul" paradigm along time ago; I'd argue morality/ethics are about effects on others.

And that's not even touching on the fact that, here, you aren't criticizing the medium, you're criticizing the content. I've only played two games through, and in one of them the enemies were demons in the form of floating heads that represented various sins. It was a corny Christian game that was not very creative, and it already breaks the pattern you're talking about. What about the truly creative games out there done by talented people?

[Cado]

Originally Posted by Mariana Trench

No one has to turn up at the hospital moaning in pain with broken bones, no one looses their car, and there aren't a thousand grieving widows. While I can certainly see an argument against the psychological effects of pretending to engage in those actions, the fact that it was even asked "Why is it moral in the virtual world?" baffles me. But I got sick of the "morality is about stains on my soul" paradigm along time ago; I'd argue morality/ethics are about effects on others.

Mankind has a bit of inherent aggression within them, and despite religion's attempts to wipe that away over the centuries they've never succeeded. What, then, is a modern person supposed to do when it arises? You can't suppress it and maintain a healthy internal balance. When you feel it really strongly, you can't act on it in the real world without consequence.

Some would ask-and I feel this is a legitimate question-"if I can't kill a few non-existent people then what the hell am I supposed to do?" This is a lot like arguing that looking at porn is the same as rape. It doesn't pan out, and a frank evaluation reveals that repression and avoidance ultimately does more damage than anything we suffer through the good vs. bad variety of karma. I would think that finding a way to integrate and express one's shadow without harming anyone would fall squarely on the good side anyway.

And that's not even touching on the fact that, here, you aren't criticizing the medium, you're criticizing the content. I've only played two games through, and in one of them the enemies were demons in the form of floating heads that represented various sins. It was a corny Christian game that was not very creative, and it already breaks the pattern you're talking about. What about the truly creative games out there done by talented people?

Case in point:



Okami



Wind Waker



Shadow of the Colossus



Tetris



Mother 3



Arkham Asylum (Batman doesn't kill people)



Persona 3

Those are just a few examples. Anyone who thinks the whole medium is nothing but hyper-violent shooters doesn't know anything about it, and sometimes the violence is there to actually serve a purpose beyond giving the player something to do between story points. Persona 3, for example, treats it with a very heavy hand when your opponents are actual human beings, and when somebody dies they stay dead. It's a blunt examination of the human condition in the face of utter hopelessness and it wouldn't have the same impact if violence wasn't an element of it.

To reiterate what I said earlier, there's no way to dismiss an entire medium out of hand, especially not one that's growing the way that games are. In fact, the people who make a web show called "Extra Credits" argue the point far better than I ever could. Here are a few highlights:

Art is Not the Opposite of Fun
Propaganda Games
Games You Might Not Have Tried #2
Game Addiction Part 1
Game Addiction Part 2

[Agota]

Wow, now that's some reaction here!

I have to say that article is indeed one sided. I could point out the positive things in computer games, but I didn't because I think that in most cases, the negative aspects outweighs the positive aspects. This is why I chose to write on the negative aspects solely.

Also, I probably made a mistake by not being clear about what I'm talking about: I was talking mainly violence related shooters, strategies and RPGs. Obviously, all points doesn't apply to the whole medium. I can't say that Lumosity brain games are in conflict with spiritual practices or accumulate you negative karma. However, I think we can agree that majority of the medium consists from violence-related games, therefore generalization should make some sense.

I generally don't think in terms of black and white (Buddhism makes it hard to do so): everything has it's positives and it's negatives. However, there are things that I consider to be generally negative. E.g. I consider alcohol use to be generally negative thing because of it's side effects. I did drank quite a lot of vodka-like liquer during the weekend, though. Why? I caught a cold and was very ill for a week, therefore during a weekend I drank alcohol as a medicine to raise fire in my body. It did help me to get better. Nevertheless, I still consider alcohol use to be a generally negative thing and I plan to keep staying clear from it. If I'd write an article on alcohol, I'd write on negative aspects on it, because they generally outweigh the positive ones. Most people don't consciously drink vodka to heal themselves from a cold. The same way with computer games: I write on negative aspects because in my eyes, they outweigh positive aspects. I'm sure that there are people who consciously use gaming for positive purposes the same way I used alcohol to get better from a cold. It's simply that they are exceptions.

I think that should explain the attitude towards gaming expressed in the article.

I'll reply to some of the comments now:

Originally Posted by OptimistPrime

Do you believe that people who engage in sports like fencing are accumulating bad karma because they're acting out simulated combat?

I believe it depends on the state of mind of the person who is engaging in combat sports.

E.g. I don't associate sparring with negative emotions and don't get angry when I get my ass kicked. This way, although it's simulated combat, it's not that different from let's say competitive running in my mind. This is the usual attitude people who are in martial arts have.

However, many people associate sparring with aggression: they get angry when they miss a punch, they let emotions take them over and then they can hold grudges for a year on someone who kicked their ass in a friendly competition. This is the same thing on the outside, yet I'd say this type of attitude to simulated combat probably messes up with your karma.

There are only my guesses though, I'm not sure.

Originally Posted by Theseus

Also a lot of what you say about videogames can also apply to movies, tv shows or even books. What I believe is that it doesn´t matter the medium what matters is what the person does with it.

I agree.

I put a lot of emphasis on violence in games because this interactivity is what makes it different from other mediums: in movie, you passively observe violence, in a game, you commit acts of violence in a virtual world. That's why video games are unique as a medium.

Originally Posted by ZephyrusX

Gaming can be beneficial or maladaptive depending upon how you use the medium; there is no inherent value in the medium.

I agree.

I believe that there might be games that actually increase your spirituality or enhance your personal development, the same way as alcohol can be used as a medicine. It's an exception, not the rule, though.

Originally Posted by Bradshaw

I can't see anything bad about being a really, really fast thinker. (And if you've played games like Starcraft, Warcraft III, Age of Empires II, etc, you have to be THINKING REALLY HARD all the time if you want to compete against the other fast, effective thinkers.)

These games require immense concentration to play at the top levels, or even at just expert level. You have to think, think and think some more.

I would honestly argue that certain strategy video games, when played against other live players at a competitive level, is one of the best ways to become a fast, fast thinker.

I don't really know, but probably you're right. That's one of the benefits of video games. I have already explained that I'm not denying the fact that there are positive aspects in gaming.

..and yeah, video games helped me to improve my English as well, together with song lyrics and articles about becoming a hacker (don't laugh, it was my dream!)