Does our current educational system foster success?

[Grandiouse]

Copied from my own blog and inspired by Steve's articles, others I have read, as well as my experience.

Agree or disagree? What are some ways we can change our schools? What has helped you achieve success in your life so far?

"Our current education system is a modern form on slavery. It discourages independent thought because those who dare to break “classroom rules and procedures” will be marked down or reprimanded. The approach of most classes is “by the book.” It kills creativity because it encourages all thinking to be alike and all assignments to follow a certain format.

Making students take a curriculum of classes beyond high school, whether they are interested in the subject matter or not, is the same as tying them with a ball and chain. I was a great student all throughout high school and college, but once “learning” got passed the basics necessary to function in society, I realized the inefficiency of our school system.

It’s a real shame that a lot of college hopefuls are taught that college is the “only” way to succeed or the “right” way to go about it. This school of thought comes from following what the masses believe. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you as well?

The institutions that are supposed to help better people’s lives in the future can do more harm than good. Education at the university level is a business, and for profit. They have successfully sold to the masses the idea that going to university and passing their curriculum will yield success. They have made it so that a lot of students believe their services are a must have, indispensable.

I am also learning that we are in an age where experience trumps credentials. The work place is competitive, no doubt about it. Good paying positions will require work experience. Now, if you are a fresh graduate with little to no experience, do you really think starting off with a huge debt from school is the best idea?

Wake up! The old way of doing things is done. For our parents, maybe a college degree was all that was needed to be one-up standing next to those who did not have degrees. But as we enter into a new age, the old inefficient school system does not suffice. A balance of both classroom and work experience for students is a must. So is more emphasis on what each individual is interested, rather than wasting time on a cookie-cutter General Education plan."

[spacecadetglow]

I think your article is way too full of generalizations and oversimplifications to take seriously. Your ideas are hackneyed and uninspired; I feel like I've read this story a hundred times. Furthermore, you don't offer any real world examples to substantiate your claims, lessening your credibility as a writer.

Originally Posted by Grandiouse

"Our current education system is a modern form on slavery. It discourages independent thought because those who dare to break “classroom rules and procedures” will be marked down or reprimanded. The approach of most classes is “by the book.” It kills creativity because it encourages all thinking to be alike and all assignments to follow a certain format.

As an educator myself, I find your education/slavery comparison extremist and quite frankly, insulting. Let's get real, please, and not use inflammatory analogies to make a point. Do you realize that when you sound so extreme like this, logical, sane people are less likely to listen to you?

Making students take a curriculum of classes beyond high school, whether they are interested in the subject matter or not, is the same as tying them with a ball and chain.

Pretty sure that college is voluntary last time I checked, hon. No one's making anyone do anything.

It’s a real shame that a lot of college hopefuls are taught that college is the “only” way to succeed or the “right” way to go about it. This school of thought comes from following what the masses believe. If everyone else jumped off a bridge, would you as well?

Trite, tired example. Yes, independent thinking should be encouraged, and believe it or not, many educators, including myself, do just that. Ironically, you sound just like the "masses" of young adults I've heard complaining about the exact same thing. Wonder where they got that idea?

The institutions that are supposed to help better people’s lives in the future can do more harm than good. Education at the university level is a business, and for profit. They have successfully sold to the masses the idea that going to university and passing their curriculum will yield success. They have made it so that a lot of students believe their services are a must have, indispensable.

False. For better or worse, higher education is indeed indispensable in many professions. Can do more harm than good... puh-leaze. If you actually backed up your claims with evidence, I'd be more inclined to listen to you, but right now you're just talking at your audience. Ineffective.

So is more emphasis on what each individual is interested, rather than wasting time on a cookie-cutter General Education plan.

Um, yeah. That's what higher education is for.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by Grandiouse

Copied from my own blog and inspired by Steve's articles, others I have read, as well as my experience.
Agree or disagree? What are some ways we can change our schools? What has helped you achieve success in your life so far?

Generally speaking (and I don't mind generalizations) the schools can't be changed.

Public schools don't have the resources for the individual attention I think you're referring to.

College$ are businesses. Look at all the stupid prerequisites they make you take whether they fit your goals and skills or not. Primary school is partly a baby sitting service so parents can work to keep the business of business going. College proves that you can function in a large tedious bureaucracy and corporations want to know that.

If you haven't read Summerhill School: A New View of Childhood, I recommend it. I think that's what you're thinking of.

One can, in most western countries, I think, learn what they want on their own and contribute according to their own skills. Although, they'd mostly be alone. School systems can't help someone who wants to learn independently of a large system. That's how I think you're being a little naive on this subject.

I think Summerhill, and what you want, could be the norm but in a much more advanced society than exists anywhere (on this planet) currently.
.

[Mounds]

IMO, the school system is continuously getting better. If you compare it from when I was a child in school to what the children in school do now, it's much better. Heck, compare it to the 60's.
There still are some points where I think it's like hammering a square peg into a round hole. I think there should be more life skills in school and less trying to turn every kid into a polymath. For instance, the only math class in my entire education that covered personal finance was consumer math, dubbed "dumb math". This was the math you took if you couldn't catch on to pre-calculus and not a soul, not even the teacher, took it seriously.
Now here's the next thing though: I've seen people throw themselves into the school system, expect to be carried through and come out the other end, thinking, "Pssh. What a waste". Were not helpless babies and we can all make a difference in our own lives. I went through my thirteen years of grade school, I didn't enjoy it and I didn't think of it as a waste. I learned a lot of good skills, like reading and writing. I know lots of people who don't have those skills. Have a nice life without those.
If were gonna drag the issue out into the light, lets get some solutions going. Mine is to supplement your education with your own studies and to take what is good, leave the rest. The major skills I would seek to learn are reading, writing, getting extremely good at extracting information and learning a couple of memory systems. That's all I would need.

-Tim

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

There's a new film out called "Finding Superman" that is an interesting indictment of the American Public School system. The trend is generally moving towards smaller charter schools, and personally I support this. I am not going to send my child to public school. He has an older half broth who is 13, and after the experience with him and the public school system I am just not into it.

I was not educated in the public school system myself - I was sent to private school for 9 years and then to an international baccalaureate program that was based on a curriculum developed in Switzerland.

John Taylor Gatto has some really good writing on the topic. I can't read much at once though, I get all heated and throw the book across the room a lot. "Dumbing Us Down: The Hidden Curriculum of Compulsory Schooling" was a good, if incendiary, read.

I do agree that some students are not meant for the university system, and I think that it's fine to go to trade school. The glut in the university system has led to a BS being sort of like a big receipt. As long as you have a degree, regardless of what that degree is in...

[Daffy Duck]

Yes, in general, it does foster success.

But it could be a lot better. Many schools are not considered safe - even if in a good location, the students themselves can cause a lot of mischief. I'd like to see better security against things like bullying. I never dealt with any of that, since I never really went to school after 3rd grade, but I hear so much about it.

I don't have much else to add except to say that Spacecadetglow has good points.

[spacecadetglow]

I find arguments that are based on critique of the system itself to be hard to stomach. They are often oversimplified and make blanket statements that have little basis in reality besides someone's general impression or extrapolated personal experience, which is no more trustworthy than hearsay.

If we really want to get to the bottom of this, look at individual districts and note the trends. Look at the schools and how they're being run. Better yet, focus on educators and the students themselves.

This is not to say that there aren't systemic problems with American education, I just think arguments founded on the claim that "the system is broken and hopeless!" are overly cynical and do not take into account the millions of children who DO succeed in the public school system. I went to public school my whole life and, while not every teacher was amazing, a few of them really did change my life for the better.

[sorter]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I find arguments that are based on critique of the system itself to be hard to stomach. They are often oversimplified and make blanket statements that have little basis in reality besides someone's general impression or extrapolated personal experience, which is no more trustworthy than hearsay.

I don't have to be an airplane mechanic to complain about the ride.

It would be nice if Grandiouse offered solutions but I don't think that's necessary. And I'm guessing he/she is being idealistic in the Summerhill sense.

In Summerhill, kids weren't required to go to class and some didn't until the age of 17 when they finally realized they wanted to go to college. Then in a year or two, they learned more than enough to pass college entrance exams.
.

[LostMyMap]

So this counselor I work with also works with lots of kids. We had a discussion last week about the school system here. He told me that the parents have to raise money to have a science teacher , PE coach and music teacher! The public system currently can't afford them. Unbelievable.

Then he told me about one teenager he knows that goes to one of these new 'super' schools set up by the Gates foundation. Every kid gets a laptop. All the curriculum is hands on and breaks from traditional lecture style learning. He said this teenager was failing at public school even though he is way above average intelligent. Now he is totally excited about being at school, because he gets to actually do things. He is challenged at his level.

I doubt even the Gates foundation has enough money to fund all the high schools in the country, but if they have a successful model, then maybe the public system will have to start modernizing and adapting what works.

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by sorter

I don't have to be an airplane mechanic to complain about the ride.

True enough, it would just be nice if the person making the argument substantiated those complaints by referencing personal experience outright. Instead you get opinions stated as facts with little to no evidence to back any of it up.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

So this counselor I work with also works with lots of kids. We had a discussion last week about the school system here. He told me that the parents have to raise money to have a science teacher , PE coach and music teacher! The public system currently can't afford them. Unbelievable.

The problem is that the school systems have been designed from the standpoint of industrialism. The original idea was to model the educational process after factories. I think that the biggest problem is that so many older teachers are married to outdated philosophies.

One of my good friends is doing her practicum in elementary education. A five year old was arrested by the police and taken away in handcuffs on his ankles and wrists because he was so out of control that the school resource officer was trying to restrain him in a hold that they are trained to use and this kid kicked his feet up and kicked her in the head so many times she got a concussion.

The mother was called to the school to pick up the kid. As they explained the situation to her she turned around and left, leaving the kid as well. She, a SAHM, said "I don't have time for this."

I doubt even the Gates foundation has enough money to fund all the high schools in the country, but if they have a successful model, then maybe the public system will have to start modernizing and adapting what works.

That's the big push for charter schools - smaller, more easily funded, now private contributions are becoming increasingly necessary. There's just not enough money.

Whatshisname Jeff Zucker just created a $100 million challenge grant.

Here's the trailer for Waiting for Superman.

[faithsdaddy]

Grandiose- I think that your statement is too general and simplistic, but overall, I think you're 'in the right direction'. The greatest single problem (and it's a pretty big one) with schooling today, is that it doesn't prepare children for the world of tomorrow.

When I've spoken to my stepson's teachers, they can't relate to what I say. Instead of engaging me, they pick the nearest fit answer from what they know and speak at me.

They do this because they can't think for themselves. They are a product of their own antiquated system. Teachers think only in terms of reform, because they're conditioned to believe that their way of doing things is the best way. In my experience, they're quick to defend this point, but slow to suggest meaningful change. When change is mentioned, it's more along the lines of tweaks, rather than a full overhaul. Whenever a rare seed of hope appears, that person is silenced as quickly as possible. There was a case in the newspaper about 2 weeks ago where a teacher was sacked for speaking their mind about the state of the school system.

As for myself, I'll teach my stepson critical thinking and the many many very relevant subjects that schools just don't bother with. At home, I'll teach him how to be his own man. At school, they can just kill his spirit with boring figures, inefficiency and ritual.

I'm putting my money where my mouth is. My own daughter is being home schooled. One of the few good things about England is that we can teach our own.

The last government tried to stop that too. But that's another rant for another day

[curiouslyrandom]

I have one kid (16) in the public school system, the other (13) is unschooled. They could not thrive under one system, so I offered them each the choice of what they felt served them best, and this is what we went with.

It's made our home life far more bearable.

Amazon.com: The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education (9780962959172): Grace Llewellyn: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

I have one kid (16) in the public school system, the other (13) is unschooled. They could not thrive under one system, so I offered them each the choice of what they felt served them best, and this is what we went with.

It's made our home life far more bearable.

Amazon.com: The Teenage Liberation Handbook: How to Quit School and Get a Real Life and Education (9780962959172): Grace Llewellyn: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

Am I likely to learn anything new from this book? I've read quite a few others about home schooling and they get a bit samey after a while. I did chuckle when I read the Amazon review 'the first 75 pages explain why school is a waste of time' and 'While many homeschooling authors hem and haw that learning at home isn't for everyone, this manifesto practically tells kids they're losers if they do otherwise'.

No sitting on the fence with this one huh

Funny stuff

[Mounds]

I'll have to look more into this when I have kids. I like CR's idea of simply offering it as a choice. If I had been offered the choice, I think I would have gone the unschooling route myself. The only real reason for that is that I did not like being around too many other people.
With these hotly debated topics (veganism, the school system, politics), you get two types of people who criticize: ragers and solvers. A rager points out every possible flaw and vanishes. It's almost as if they say, "There's the problem. Do something about it"! A solver points out a flaw and offers a solution or constructive thought on it.
Some people are simply ragers. Those are the people you consider toxic in a workplace as well. Not saying the OP is a rager but I just don't see a lot of construction there.

-Tim

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'll have to look more into this when I have kids. I like CR's idea of simply offering it as a choice. If I had been offered the choice, I think I would have gone the unschooling route myself. The only real reason for that is that I did not like being around too many other people.
With these hotly debated topics (veganism, the school system, politics), you get two types of people who criticize: ragers and solvers. A rager points out every possible flaw and vanishes. It's almost as if they say, "There's the problem. Do something about it"! A solver points out a flaw and offers a solution or constructive thought on it.
Some people are simply ragers. Those are the people you consider toxic in a workplace as well. Not saying the OP is a rager but I just don't see a lot of construction there.

-Tim

I wanted to teach myself when I was 14. Would have done far better in my exams, but what's done is done. I'm not <cough, choke, splutter, words sticking in throat> bitter.

I'm half and half (no, I don't mean hermaphrodite) on this. There are a lot of problems that we don't know how to improve, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't have our eyes opened to them. On the other hand, I'm not a light the fuse and run away kind of guy either. Perhaps suggest the direction of change or offer a part solution. But's that's pretty similar to what you said already.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'll have to look more into this when I have kids. I like CR's idea of simply offering it as a choice. If I had been offered the choice, I think I would have gone the unschooling route myself. The only real reason for that is that I did not like being around too many other people.

Given the choice, I would have apprenticed myself to a professional jeweler, which I did eventually after I graduated from high school. Only by then, I was too stubborn to learn anything because the school system had crammed things down my throat for so long that I refused to take in any more information, helpful or not.

My son constantly surprises me with the stuff he learns on his own. Today we talked about the possibility of him being an apprentice somewhere, and he likes the idea.

As for the socialization, home schoolers and unschoolers spend more time around people, just not their peers. I hated being around my peers, but loved being around smaller kids and adults. Why shouldn't our kids be allowed to spend time around a variety of ages and benefit from those experiences?

[LostMyMap]

I sometimes think of starting a Jedi academy and taking in all the geeks that are so severely under challenged by the public systems. I was one of those kids in certain subjects. Half way through 5th grade, my English teacher told me, "I don't know what else to do with you." Meaning she had given me everything she had access to and I had gobbled it up.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I sometimes think of starting a Jedi academy and taking in all the geeks that are so severely under challenged by the public systems. I was one of those kids in certain subjects. Half way through 5th grade, my English teacher told me, "I don't know what else to do with you." Meaning she had given me everything she had access to and I had gobbled it up.

LOL. The school librarians used to say the same thing to me. No wonder I ended up in publishing!

My son has always had a difficult time going to school, even preschool was hard for him to endure. For two years he was in an advanced program and was actually happy, but as soon as he entered junior high, it went downhill again.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

LOL. The school librarians used to say the same thing to me. No wonder I ended up in publishing!

My son has always had a difficult time going to school, even preschool was hard for him to endure. For two years he was in an advanced program and was actually happy, but as soon as he entered junior high, it went downhill again.

What is it about school that is tough for him?

Was he ever tested by the school psychologist to identify any areas where he is accelerated, or has a learning issue? ( I only know to ask that because my ex was a school psych.)

[Cado]

I believe the biggest flaw with the system on the whole is inflexibility. It's designed for one kind of learning which it then applies to all people and subjects. It works well for mathematics where there's a right and wrong way to derive answers from the numbers. There's some room for creativity in how you formulate the problem but there is a definitive answer.

It doesn't work as well when you're studying history or literature or art or music. Whether you can correctly state the facts on a test or in an essay doesn't indicate that you've learned something. A good teacher can make a difference, and really it's the only thing that can make those classes work with or without the structures we've put in place. However, I don't think a grading system fosters the kind of environment which best facilitates learning in these cases even with a superstar teacher. In history the student may know the facts by heart but he's gained nothing if he doesn't understand the whos and whys and how it shaped the world we live in now.

It's not like there are no other models we could implement. The Sudbury Valley approach seems promising, and limiting class sizes would probably go a long way toward improving the current system. The truth is that it would probably be best to tailor the curriculum for each locale as I doubt every group of teachers and kids are capable learning just as well with one technique as with another.

The thing to keep in mind when talking about the system is that no matter how bad people say it is they will fight to the death to defend it. This is purely anecdotal I'll admit but many of the people who complain the loudest will shout at the television when a new piece of legislation gets passed which alters the system in some way. The first post in this topic can even be taken as an example of that because while the OP may be more open to change than some all he's done is complain. That doesn't help. That doesn't change anything. It's vague, it's angry, and it speaks of powerlessness.

If you can't speak with authority then your opinion is worthless. I say that and highlight it not to be cruel but to state a truth-if there's no reason to consider what you're saying it's more noise in an ocean of it.

What is authority? It means knowing your subject, presenting the data, providing the perspectives of people on different sides of the issue, and structuring your prose so that there's a compelling reason for people to consider your case. (Not every one of those is required; just proving that you know the subject and you can back your claims is usually enough but on something like this, in this context, it's advantageous to approach from multiple angles.) You can also invoke emotion if you so desire, but if it's not used sparingly it's less about speaking with authority than it is lighting the fuse on a powder keg and hoping it moves things in your favor. That's exactly what politicians do and I'd like to think the proponents of change now and in the future will appeal to intelligence over dumb****ery whenever possible.

I need to become more educated on this because it's something I care very deeply about. All in all I'm not much better equipped to discuss this than the OP is but perhaps I can make up for it by posting one of my favorite talks on this: YouTube - Sir Ken Robinson: Do schools kill creativity?

Also, for anyone who's interested in the American school system and why people like me think it so desperately needs to change, I'd highly recommend this book: Amazon.com: The Language Police: How Pressure Groups Restrict What Students Learn (9781400030644): Diane Ravitch: Books: Reviews, Prices & more

[Cado]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

As for the socialization, home schoolers and unschoolers spend more time around people, just not their peers. I hated being around my peers, but loved being around smaller kids and adults. Why shouldn't our kids be allowed to spend time around a variety of ages and benefit from those experiences?

I agree heartily with this sentiment. When you're around kids exactly your own age so much of the time it drastically limits the scope of your perspectives and experiences. The fact that I was around so many different age groups growing up is part of why I think I matured as quickly as I did. Being around your peers is important too but they have so much less to draw from and you, by extension, only have so much to gain.

[Grandiouse]

I have talked to friends in France and their university system is different. They choose a specific study earlier in their college careers than we do - without 2 whole years studying GE.

Can anyone from Europe verify this?

Grade school and university did a lot of positives for me as well. I learned good social skills and time management.

But in my opinion, the way that higher education (university) is structured right now is like a corporation, a business. It's self promoting because a lot of people in the previous generation did not go, so now it is the popular thing to do. Not necessarily the best or only way for many others.

That is the part that makes me mad because equal or greater emphasis should be placed in alternatives to the "Go to college then get a job" route. Only in my experience, I believed so much in what my teachers and other superiors were telling me that I went to college without question. I spent my resources without fully considering other alternatives.

For others who are undecided, I would say weigh out all of your options and do the one that is the best for you. I was lost, and followed advice almost blindly. It would be sad if someone got into heavy debt without a true purpose or direction to go to after university.

I don't think home schooling is a bad idea. It teaches kids at a young age how to be independent. For young adults, apprenticeships and trade schools are good as well.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

What is it about school that is tough for him?

Was he ever tested by the school psychologist to identify any areas where he is accelerated, or has a learning issue? ( I only know to ask that because my ex was a school psych.)

It's the system as a whole that chafes him, I think. I felt that way, too.

He was tested last year while in a public school. Results showed he's advanced, but depressed. School just drags him down.

[Grandiouse]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

It's the system as a whole that chafes him, I think. I felt that way, too.

He was tested last year while in a public school. Results showed he's advanced, but depressed. School just drags him down.

I had the same feelings too. I could do the work and get good grades without a problem. I always thought studying is pretty simple, all it takes is a little discipline and commitment. (that's another positive thing about school. It teaches dedication).

But the point is, I didn't find what I was studying interesting or practical. And I felt that I just didn't belong in the system.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

I believe the biggest flaw with the system on the whole is inflexibility. It's designed for one kind of learning which it then applies to all people and subjects. It works well for mathematics where there's a right and wrong way to derive answers from the numbers. There's some room for creativity in how you formulate the problem but there is a definitive answer.

This brings to mind a story my friend told me about the class she is doing her internship with this semester. The five year olds must use pencils to write their letters. No crayons allowed. I don't see the utility in enforcing the use of a specific writing utensil.

There's a one room schoolhouse charter school in my area, I've heard great things about it.

Ironically at the college level most of my professors attend to at least two or three different learning styles in the study materials made available (although kinesthetic learners are generally on their own. Pacing and writing everything out by hand.) You'd think this would have trickled down to the kids by now.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

This brings to mind a story my friend told me about the class she is doing her internship with this semester. The five year olds must use pencils to write their letters. No crayons allowed. I don't see the utility in enforcing the use of a specific writing utensil.

There's a one room schoolhouse charter school in my area, I've heard great things about it.

Ironically at the college level most of my professors attend to at least two or three different learning styles in the study materials made available (although kinesthetic learners are generally on their own. Pacing and writing everything out by hand.) You'd think this would have trickled down to the kids by now.

Probably because a college entrace exam or a job application won't be that effective if you fill it out in crayon. Can you imagine taking the ACT or SAT with crayon?

One day, they won't even teach writing, just computer keyboard. I hear writing in cursive is already dead. Mine was un-readable anyway.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by curiouslyrandom

It's the system as a whole that chafes him, I think. I felt that way, too.

He was tested last year while in a public school. Results showed he's advanced, but depressed. School just drags him down.

Maybe he can be a member of my Jedi academy.

If I'm telling you your biz too much, just shut me up, but I wonder about the cause and effect of his depression vs. not liking school? Meaning, if he has some other things going on, and those things got better, then school would somehow seem better? Heck I don't know, just my overactive analytical mind.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by Grandiouse

I had the same feelings too. I could do the work and get good grades without a problem. I always thought studying is pretty simple, all it takes is a little discipline and commitment. (that's another positive thing about school. It teaches dedication).

You can learn dedication anywhere, though. School didn't teach me how to be dedicated; my mother did.

[curiouslyrandom]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Maybe he can be a member of my Jedi academy.

If I'm telling you your biz too much, just shut me up, but I wonder about the cause and effect of his depression vs. not liking school? Meaning, if he has some other things going on, and those things got better, then school would somehow seem better? Heck I don't know, just my overactive analytical mind.

To paint a broader picture, this kid would cling to the inside of the car and refuse to leave my side, starting from preschool at age 4 and every year since then, except for grades 4 & 5 when he was in the advanced program. He started doing it again this year, which is why I took him back out of school again (we homeschooled 6th grade, did regular school 7th grade, and he's in 8th now).

My daughter, on the other hand, can't wait to get away from me and out into the world, and has been like that since she was born. That's okay, she moves in a different realm than my son and I do, and I love her just the same. She finds the school system to be a good place to be and works within the system pretty well.