Does our current educational system foster success?

[James81]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Oh, so I wasn't just being a blubbering idiot having an emotional reaction? lol... thanks, LMM, that means a lot.

You channeled your inner Angela.

[Cado]

Originally Posted by James81

You channeled your inner Angela.

Why can I see a transparent blue holograph of Angela in a Jedi rob nodding with approval at this?

[faithsdaddy]

Who's Angela? At a guess, she's someone who was very popular on this forum and has recently died. Am I even close?

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

Who's Angela? At a guess, she's someone who was very popular on this forum and has recently died. Am I even close?

You're half right. I'll let you guess which part of your statement is true

Was/is she popular or is she a goner?

[Solipsist]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

Who's Angela?

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by Mounds

You're half right. I'll let you guess which part of your statement is true

Was/is she popular or is she a goner?

Erm, popular. People wouldn't miss her if she was horrible. I'll revise my guess and say that she's just not on the forums anymore.

[Mounds]

Hehe, she's still hanging around. Luring men into her gingerbread house.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

Erm, popular. People wouldn't miss her if she was horrible. I'll revise my guess and say that she's just not on the forums anymore.

Popular? No, legendary: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/s...archid=1466103

[beast]

I take issue with the idea that most people aren't naturally curious, eager to learn, and capable of taking learning into their own hands. Kids are natural learners, anyone who has spent five minutes with a 4 year old can probably see this; I don't think kids are capable of going three minutes without asking a "why" question. It seems pretty clear to me that a disengagement or lack of enthusiasm about learning is, more often than not, a result of conventional schooling. You would be very, very hard-pressed to find an unschooler who doesn't at least have something they feel passionate about and engaged with. Sure, they might not all be doing calculus, but the same can be said for half the liberal arts majors I know. I never liked the idea that we all have to be generalists, either - the most amazing people I know aren't.

There are very few things about the classroom experience which are irreplaceable. It might be great for English majors to be in a workshop-type setting, but for most subjects (foreign languages, ecology, music, anthropology...), a classroom will only take you so far, and might end up stunting you. And for every English major who is helped by being broken down then built back up again, there's gotta be one who is hurt by the experience. I refused to be in any class where my writing was read aloud - not because I was self-conscious about it, but because I didn't like the feeling of being so exposed.

I taught classes at an unschooling center during my four years of college. Since I was 15, I've probably been on pretty familiar terms with over a hundred unschooled teenagers, and it is often remarkable to compare them with their peers who are in school. Unschoolers tend to be better at engaging with adults, more self-directed and eager to learn, and much, much kinder to their peers. Very few of them began unschooling already equipped with these skills; the only real thing that many (though by no means all) of them have in common is probably a shared experience of having been bullied. In middle school, I can recall many occasions where I taunted my classmates or was taunted by my classmates. Even those who claim to have loved school rarely ever claim that middle school was anything short of miserable for them.

I spent 5 years in private school, 6 years in public school, a few years unschooling, followed by four years at an "old boy network" New England liberal arts college. Each of the experiences was valuable in its own way, but I was miserable from grades 4th through 9th, until I finally convinced my parents to let me try something else. My original reasons for hating school weren't based in any sort of philosophy (except, perhaps, that it borders on inhumane to require teenagers to be alert and present at 7 in the morning). I hated school because I felt that it was a horrible, terrible, awful, miserable experience for me. It didn't help me learn, it didn't help me to be successful or happy, and it certainly didn't help me to be a better or kinder person. Was that the fault of the teachers? No, not at all. I have immense respect for most teachers, but I do think that many of them are trying to do their best in what is already a broken system, and may not be aware of the ways that they are hurting the people they're hoping to nurture and support. For one, it's harmful to enforce the idea that all students learn the same way, or will benefit from the same exact teaching methods - and most teachers and schools are guilty of this, to some extent.

PS I see a lot of love for John Taylor Gatto in this thread, what about John Holt? I think he was a much more compelling advocate for the cause.

PPS Amy you know I still love you more than I love my right index finger, girl.

[DanFromSeoul]

School is not about learning.
School is about behavior modification.

Learn about the school history here.

I worked as a teacher for 2+ years
in private elementary school and can attest to this.


Dan

[faithsdaddy]

Beast and Dan. Yet another nail in the school coffin as far as I'm concerned;
Homework wrecks my family life, says a teacher | Mail Online

[spacecadetglow]

Originally Posted by beast

I take issue with the idea that most people aren't naturally curious, eager to learn, and capable of taking learning into their own hands. Kids are natural learners, anyone who has spent five minutes with a 4 year old can probably see this; I don't think kids are capable of going three minutes without asking a "why" question. It seems pretty clear to me that a disengagement or lack of enthusiasm about learning is, more often than not, a result of conventional schooling. You would be very, very hard-pressed to find an unschooler who doesn't at least have something they feel passionate about and engaged with. Sure, they might not all be doing calculus, but the same can be said for half the liberal arts majors I know. I never liked the idea that we all have to be generalists, either - the most amazing people I know aren't.

There are very few things about the classroom experience which are irreplaceable. It might be great for English majors to be in a workshop-type setting, but for most subjects (foreign languages, ecology, music, anthropology...), a classroom will only take you so far, and might end up stunting you. And for every English major who is helped by being broken down then built back up again, there's gotta be one who is hurt by the experience. I refused to be in any class where my writing was read aloud - not because I was self-conscious about it, but because I didn't like the feeling of being so exposed.

I taught classes at an unschooling center during my four years of college. Since I was 15, I've probably been on pretty familiar terms with over a hundred unschooled teenagers, and it is often remarkable to compare them with their peers who are in school. Unschoolers tend to be better at engaging with adults, more self-directed and eager to learn, and much, much kinder to their peers. Very few of them began unschooling already equipped with these skills; the only real thing that many (though by no means all) of them have in common is probably a shared experience of having been bullied. In middle school, I can recall many occasions where I taunted my classmates or was taunted by my classmates. Even those who claim to have loved school rarely ever claim that middle school was anything short of miserable for them.

I spent 5 years in private school, 6 years in public school, a few years unschooling, followed by four years at an "old boy network" New England liberal arts college. Each of the experiences was valuable in its own way, but I was miserable from grades 4th through 9th, until I finally convinced my parents to let me try something else. My original reasons for hating school weren't based in any sort of philosophy (except, perhaps, that it borders on inhumane to require teenagers to be alert and present at 7 in the morning). I hated school because I felt that it was a horrible, terrible, awful, miserable experience for me. It didn't help me learn, it didn't help me to be successful or happy, and it certainly didn't help me to be a better or kinder person. Was that the fault of the teachers? No, not at all. I have immense respect for most teachers, but I do think that many of them are trying to do their best in what is already a broken system, and may not be aware of the ways that they are hurting the people they're hoping to nurture and support. For one, it's harmful to enforce the idea that all students learn the same way, or will benefit from the same exact teaching methods - and most teachers and schools are guilty of this, to some extent.

PS I see a lot of love for John Taylor Gatto in this thread, what about John Holt? I think he was a much more compelling advocate for the cause.

PPS Amy you know I still love you more than I love my right index finger, girl.

YOU! I was thinking as I read this, man that sounds a lot like Rae, lmao...

Public schooling isn't perfect. No one ever claimed it was. I think you bring up a lot of good points and admittedly, after all the contributions to this thread, I'm becoming more and more interested in alternative routes of schooling. That Re-Educating Seattle blog Michael Chui posted was really awesome, too. I love the idea of students being able to learn at their own pace and get deeply involved in their passions. Personally, I had no trouble discovering my own passions in a public school setting and I didn't really mind all the extra work I had to do. I mostly found it interesting, and I just like to achieve, period. I realize not everyone is like this, but there are thankfully many students who still do benefit from the traditional system no matter how "broken" it is.

Trouble is, at this moment in history alternative education is still a niche market. Guess what the price tag is at PSCS, the school where the Re-Educate blogger teaches? $14,000 a year. Yep. I'd like to think this kind of education will become more available to more than just rich white kids someday... maybe it is already, I've only just begun to discover these alternative schools. I hope so.

Was the tuition at your unschooling center similar?

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

I think you bring up a lot of good points and admittedly, after all the contributions to this thread, I'm becoming more and more interested in alternative routes of schooling. ....

Trouble is, at this moment in history alternative education is still a niche market. Guess what the price tag is at PSCS, the school where the Re-Educate blogger teaches? $14,000 a year. Yep. I'd like to think this kind of education will become more available to more than just rich white kids someday... maybe it is already, I've only just begun to discover these alternative schools. I hope so.

PSCS still runs fundraisers on a regular basis, and some of their equipment is provided by the community. One thing that Steve Miranda points out is that intimacy doesn't scale. I've thought a lot, these past few months, about how you could maintain the same level of intimacy while making this kind of schooling more prevalent. (So has he; that's something I brought up when I met him.) After all, the worst thing about "alternative" schooling is that it's alternative and thus obscure. But prevalence brings its own natural problems and I haven't come up with any ideas to solve those.

I suspect that scaling would work out extremely well economically, but only if everything else gets brought along. And I'm not sure how to bring everything else along.

[faithsdaddy]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Popular? No, legendary: http://www.stevepavlina.com/forums/s...archid=1466103

Link doesn't work mate.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by faithsdaddy

Link doesn't work mate.

Personal Development for Smart People Forums - View Profile: Angela

She's the top one if you sort the members list by posts or reputation.

[spacecadetglow]

I never knew about the Members List thing... whoa, I'm #9 in rep points, and I've only been on here for two months!

[beast]

Hey you have more posts per day than this Angela lady!

[beast]

And to answer your question about tuition, no. It used to be a flat rate of $2,500 per year, now it's at a sliding scale, which has been working out well, I believe.

The thing is, nobody has ever - ever ever ever ever - been turned away for inability to pay, even if what you can pay is nothing. That is something the founders felt strongly about, and it is a non-negotiable policy (even though the center has struggled financially for many years and only recently, after 15 years running, has it become financially stable). That means that there have been members there whose families are living below the poverty level, members with single moms, members who are emancipated from their families. I'm not sure what the average familial incomes are for these kids, but it isn't very high, because it has always been a priority that this is accessible for any interested kid in the area, not just wealthy kids who already have so many doors open to them.

[spacecadetglow]

Well that is good! I wonder if these places exist outside of hippie dippie New England and California.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Well that is good! I wonder if these places exist outside of hippie dippie New England and California.

HEY. Seattle represent, yo.

And I have a friend in Michigan who hates the public school system and I believe his daughter is in a Montessori school. Not sure what his long term plans were.

[Andrew Brunelle]

What the public school system does it teach you how to be an obedient worker. George Carlin and his famous rant on education was everything I thought about education before he even said it. When I was in school, taking Honors classes, we were regarded as better than the other students, and the teachers would complain about their other classes to us. We weren't told to become obedient workers, but that is because our teachers expected more out of us than the average student. But still, we were still treated similarly, and were expected to follow arbitrary rules and whatnot.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Illustro Cado

Why can I see a transparent blue holograph of Angela in a Jedi rob nodding with approval at this?

I regret that I cannot deliver this message in person.... help me, spacecadetglow, you're my only hope!

[Michael Chui]

That chop works remarkably well. Bravo.

[beast]

Originally Posted by spacecadetglow

Well that is good! I wonder if these places exist outside of hippie dippie New England and California.

Come on, woman! You're just trying to trivialize what an OMG AWESOME AMAZING REVOLUTIONARY COOL thing it is.