Progress is dead

[Mounds]

Think about it. Were at a point where pretty much everyone is an expert on having an opinion. Worse, the internet allows us to share those opinions with the world and it's become very difficult to distinguish fact from fiction. A theory that may have taken many lifetimes to establish and build up evidence for can be discarded in an instant for a theory that has no evidence and might have been cooked up on the fly!
Another thing is the classic rehash of information. Blogs. They need an expiry date. Blog police should tell a noobie blogger how long he has to tell all there is to be told about a given topic.
Example: Personal finances. I know of a popular personal finance blog that's been around since 2001. Daily posts. For almost ten years. I'm sorry to say it but that is not progress. That's paralysis. At some point, archive the blog and call it a website.
You can even do a search online on any given topic. The internet is littered with people trying to sell you e-books, struggling blogs, blogs created for the sole purpose of making money. Is it good information? Your guess is as good as mine
To call this the information age is only half right. It's the information paralysis age. Way too much stuff floating around. TV provides a pleasant distraction from the maelstrom. No wonder some people watch 5-6 hours a day.
So how do we combat this formidable opponent? A very good start is recognizing that there is an end to certain subjects. If you don't immediately recognize it, create it.
Ex: Once again, personal finances. I had reached a point where I was no longer living paycheck to paycheck, I was paying down debt consistently and things were peachy keen. And yet, I felt like there was so much to learn. Truth is, there's nothing left to learn, unless of course you count the next guy's opinion as something to learn.
Another is personal development in general. I've read tons of books on it, read lots of threads, ect. There is nothing left to learn, expect other people's opinions. That's a dangerous trap. You either say, "Ok, this is it" and realize you've hit the limit or you commit yourself to a lifetime of uncertainty. The same concepts, with words arranged in a particular order to look like something new. Isn't it easier to just say, "Hey! I get it. No more PD material for me. "
Another thing I find useful is to read books on history. Learn about the present by looking to the past. Once you know where you came from and how old ideas came about, it's easy to spot the incongruencies in "new" information.
Lastly, set those goals. Without a focus, you'll spin your wheels in the mud forever. This is more important than ever. We've become prisoner's of our own success. Things designed to make life easier are now screwing us over.

/rant off.

-Tim

[escapeplan]

Mounds, you said it so right! Just today I needed some information for a new business project and the trash I had to search through from google was mind numbing. Would have been quicker to do the old fashioned thing and go to the library! I actually think the new niche for computer search engines is somehow clearing the debris and rubbish away!

As for PD, I think this is becoming ridiculous in places. The dismissing of evidence is just one thing I get sick of hearing, probably from some teenager with his latest hair brained theory from the last sci-fi film he watched alone in his bedroom one saturday night! Add that to all the other nonsense about earning money from your passion and adding more useless websites onto the net and I'm ready to pull my hair out. Do these people not realise that one good investment can bring in way more than the celebrated 50 bucks a month they finally made after two years of giving away crappy e-books?

No, PD seems to be about dismissing the tried and tested and trying to manipulate your reality around a fantasy world. Granted some people make a living out of this sort of vulnerability/ stupidity in others and fair play to them. If they didn't, PD would have died a death years ago. Anyway, I'll sit back like I always do and wait for the shots to come my way now!

edit: Please note it is not personal development I object to, it's the nonsense that it attracts!

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Gott ist tot.

Mounds is the Friedrich Nietzsche of PD, I guess.

[Tanja]

Hello Mr.Nietzsche! How are you today?

I guess this is where common sense (which is not that common) comes into play. I agree with your points, especially about focus.
However, I do think one should always keep an eye on what's new even in the fields you think you know everything about.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mounds

.... There is nothing left to learn, expect other people's opinions. That's a dangerous trap. You either say, "Ok, this is it" and realize you've hit the limit or you commit yourself to a lifetime of uncertainty. The same concepts, with words arranged in a particular order to look like something new. Isn't it easier to just say, "Hey! I get it. No more PD material for me. "

Apparently not -- you continually rant about this same issue, and still you continue to participate in exactly what you're ranting about.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Angela

Apparently not -- you continually rant about this same issue, and still you continue to participate in exactly what you're ranting about.

This line is sounding so old now... "If you disagree with US what are you still doing hanging around here?"

[Mounds]

I actually just saw it in this light. I usually discuss something a few times to get to the point where I really get it. This post would be that moment where I finally get what's been eating at me. Now that the problem is identified, I can deal with it. I'm all about the streamlining, so this will be fun.

What's interesting is that I came to this conclusion all on my own. Apparently, there is already a number of people who feel exactly the same way. It's been studied fairly in depth and is considered to be a problem that is causing some serious economical strain. I think I'll make this my new focus for a while... figuring out how to deal with this and get things back on the rails.

-Tim

[Angela]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

This line is sounding so old now... "If you disagree with US what are you still doing hanging around here?"

No, that's not the point -- the point is not that he's disagreeing with the people he hangs out with, is that he's doing the exact same thing that he's complaining about.

(I don't want Mounds to go away or to change, in case that's what you're imagining.)

But now that you mention it, escapeplan, it is very funny how you complain that you're "sick of" and "ready to pull (your) hair out" about stuff that you go out of your way to be around! I understand why you do it, and I don't think you shouldn't, but it does strike me as funny as that old joke:

Patient: "Doctor, doctor, I get this stabbing pain in my eye every time I drink coffee!"
Doctor: "Take the spoon out."

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Angela

No, that's not the point -- the point is not that he's disagreeing with the people he hangs out with, is that he's doing the exact same thing that he's complaining about.

(I don't want Mounds to go away or to change, in case that's what you're imagining.)

I see. Actually joking aside, there's a really interesting point in what he's saying. I mean, there are many people in PD who talk about lens changing and different perspectives, but who themselves would not adopt a perspective that said we were pre-programmed or had no free will for example. Whether a view is empowering or not, has little to do with whether there is evidence to support that view.

I seriously think another area that will have seen its day soon is Life Coaching. Most people could do this themselves if they had a book of questions and exercises and approached it with an open mind. The tools they use are out the bag, and the fees for such services far too much.

The question is at what point is PD talk simply repetitive and at what point is it trying in vain to keep going by entering into absurdity?

@Angela: loved the joke! Lol!!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

I see. Actually joking aside, there's a really interesting point in what he's saying. I mean, there are many people in PD who talk about lens changing and different perspectives, but who themselves would not adopt a perspective that said we were pre-programmed or had no free will for example. Whether a view is empowering or not, has little to do with whether there is evidence to support that view.

Is that a problem for you?

I seriously think another area that will have seen its day soon is Life Coaching. Most people could do this themselves if they had a book of questions and exercises and approached it with an open mind. The tools they use are out the bag, and the fees for such services far too much.

You may be right about that. I can foresee a day when what life coaches do now will be something that kids are taught in school to do for themselves and for each other as buddies: to do inquiry that makes a difference. (Personally, I think that although books are often very helpful, it's also sometimes really helpful to enlist a buddy, a life coach, another human being to assist with shifting.)

The question is at what point is PD talk simply repetitive and at what point is it trying in vain to keep going by entering into absurdity?

What's your answer?

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by Mounds

figuring out how to deal with this and get things back on the rails.

I'd be happy to hear what you come up with, I sure could use it in some areas--my common sense tells me one thing...but...


I think I gave myself the answer in my previous post...I keep thinking there's something new, ''better''....heh

[James81]

All this resistance to PD stuff is getting old Mounds. People are into personal development for hundreds of reasons. I've noticed that when I do what you are doing its because I'm resisting something that would make a huge difference if I just "got" it.

Going on a crusade about how much clutter exists on the internet or in personal development is just perpetuating the very thing you complain about.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by James81

All this resistance to PD stuff is getting old Mounds. People are into personal development for hundreds of reasons. I've noticed that when I do what you are doing its because I'm resisting something that would make a huge difference if I just "got" it.

Going on a crusade about how much clutter exists on the internet or in personal development is just perpetuating the very thing you complain about.

Did you happen to take my post personally?

This reasoning is bizarre to me. Part of my own progress is streamlining. I don't have time to cross-examine every little thing nor do I want to. Capitalism has created an environment where the same information tends to be packaged in a number of different ways. The internet perpetuates that. It creates huge time sinks, wasted energy and costs money. To me, that's worth solving.
How come you're against my exploration of this topic?

-Tim

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Part of my own progress is streamlining. I don't have time to cross-examine every little thing nor do I want to. Capitalism has created an environment where the same information tends to be packaged in a number of different ways. The internet perpetuates that. It creates huge time sinks, wasted energy and costs money. To me, that's worth solving.
How come you're against my exploration of this topic?

Originally Posted by Mounds

So how do we combat this formidable opponent? A very good start is recognizing that there is an end to certain subjects. If you don't immediately recognize it, create it.

You've already distinguished your solution, and yet you continue to recreate the same information, packaged in a number of different ways. Why don't you do your own very good start and recognize or create an end to this subject?

Perhaps it's because you believe that this subject (the one you're interested in talking more about) is more worthy of continuing to perpetuate on the internet than what others are interested in perpetuating on the internet?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Did you happen to take my post personally?

This reasoning is bizarre to me. Part of my own progress is streamlining. I don't have time to cross-examine every little thing nor do I want to. Capitalism has created an environment where the same information tends to be packaged in a number of different ways. The internet perpetuates that. It creates huge time sinks, wasted energy and costs money. To me, that's worth solving.
How come you're against my exploration of this topic?

-Tim

No, didn't take it personally. I don't think I fall into the category that you outlined, although I suppose that doesn't mean others perceive me in that way. I dunno.

I mention it BECAUSE you seem to talk about streamlining and a post like this complaining of others contributions is just adding to the clutter you talk about. Work inside your circle of influence rather than complain about things that leave you feeling powerless. Assuming, as you say, you want to be more effective in your own personal life.

Of course, that's just my own feedback, based on the fact that I've been where you are.

[James81]

How much time do we waste focusing on and evaluating other people when we could be using that time to focus on and evaluate ourselves?

This thread just helped me see that in a big way. And I realized that THAT is why judgment is so disempowering.

[Mounds]

@James - which category? I'm not putting anyone specific into a category and saying, "BAD! BAD!". I'm saying there's just too much info to reasonably comprehend. What are we going to do about it and where does it end?
By the by, I'm not a tormented soul who can't sleep at night due to his visions of too much information. There is no struggle here. I just have happened upon an avenue that might improve my life and my business.

@Angela - I believe this is a valid point and I plan to pursue it. Just wanted to discuss it to see if it goes anywhere. Part of the reason I brought it up is because I've never seen it discussed before.

@everyone - feel free to discuss whateve you please. I'm working on adjusting my own filters.

-Tim

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Mounds

@Angela - I believe this is a valid point and I plan to pursue it. Just wanted to discuss it to see if it goes anywhere. Part of the reason I brought it up is because I've never seen it discussed before.

If you want to discuss it and see if it goes anywhere, why don't you answer my questions? What do you see is the difference between your pursuing this valid point that you see and all the information overload you see "out there"? Do you think yours is a valid and all that clutter out there is not?

A lady recently wanted less clutter, so she posted an ad on craigslist making her clutter available to anyone who wanted it. That's how I got my beautiful handcrafted oak bed, for free. For her it was clutter, for me it's treasure, for other people it's not their concern so they just pay attention to stuff they choose to pay attention to.

She didn't sit around and whine about how much clutter she had in her storage unit, and how much it was costing her; she just did your solution and created an end to it -- she just let it go.

[Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Gott ist tot.

Mounds is the Friedrich Nietzsche of PD, I guess.

Maybe mounds is the Too Short of PD...the "pimp of PD" lol

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Another is personal development in general. I've read tons of books on it, read lots of threads, ect. There is nothing left to learn, expect other people's opinions. That's a dangerous trap. You either say, "Ok, this is it" and realize you've hit the limit or you commit yourself to a lifetime of uncertainty. The same concepts, with words arranged in a particular order to look like something new. Isn't it easier to just say, "Hey! I get it. No more PD material for me. "

Couldn't agree more. The personal development movement is full of people who think that their own personal opinions and epiphanies are worth broadcasting to the world. But it's only because the boundaries to publishing are lowered.

I am really disappointed by PD blogs, I went through several hundred of them when I started mine, trying to find people who took as similar approach to me (that advice should be based on more than personal opinion), and I found three. I've said elsewhere that if you deleted 90% of PD blogs and directed the traffic to the remaining 10%, no one would notice.

The ones that I follow tend to be less because I get insight from the blog, but more because I like the blogger and think they're interesting, and like hearing what they're up to, than because they churn out actionable take-aways that are relevant to my situation.

Another thing I find useful is to read books on history. Learn about the present by looking to the past. Once you know where you came from and how old ideas came about, it's easy to spot the incongruencies in "new" information.

Awesome, I've literally had the same thought. I have a few on my reading list, if you come across any good ones do let me know.

[escapeplan]

I think if more people were honest rather than posting wishful thinking/ other feel good rubbish, that would reduce clutter.

Maybe it's just me but I'm cynical of loads of people saying running a business out of passion is the way forward, or the LOA is easy, or they are spiritually as one (yet argumentative as hell).

Honesty would be refreshing. If you really are experiencing it as you tell it- great. Otherwise stop pretending to have insights you don't and cut the clutter!

[Medea33]

Originally Posted by Lakshyayidhi Lakshmihi

Maybe mounds is the Too Short of PD...the "pimp of PD" lol

Could be. I'm not sure they grow those in Manitoba, though.

Or maybe he's just an extrovert and thinks out loud...

On topic, though, clutter happens, social, verbal, whatever. Because this is the Internet, our verbal clutter and our many opinions and ideas are no longer so usefully evanescent. So, better filters might be in order.

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mounds

@James - which category? I'm not putting anyone specific into a category and saying, "BAD! BAD!". I'm saying there's just too much info to reasonably comprehend. What are we going to do about it and where does it end?
By the by, I'm not a tormented soul who can't sleep at night due to his visions of too much information. There is no struggle here. I just have happened upon an avenue that might improve my life and my business.

@Angela - I believe this is a valid point and I plan to pursue it. Just wanted to discuss it to see if it goes anywhere. Part of the reason I brought it up is because I've never seen it discussed before.

@everyone - feel free to discuss whateve you please. I'm working on adjusting my own filters.

-Tim

I mustve misunderstood what "/rant" meant to you. Usually when I sign off like that its because what I posted irritates me.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

The personal development movement is full of people who think that their own personal opinions and epiphanies are worth broadcasting to the world. But it's only because the boundaries to publishing are lowered.

Like you! You just thought that your personal opinion in this matter was worth broadcasting to the world, and you were able to, because the boundaries to publishing it are low enough that you can. Is it true that it's worth it? Worth it enough for me to respond to, worth it enough for you to say it. Clutter to some people, and simply outside the awareness of almost everyone.

Because it's clutter to some people, should you cut it, or should you never have said it? I don't think so. If there's something there for you to say, I think it's worth your saying it. If you say something that's not worth my hearing, I'll simply choose to not listen.

No clutter; no problem. It doesn't take up space or cost me money -- except as I choose for it to. I'm not a victim of perpetrators of internet clutter.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Medea33

On topic, though, clutter happens, social, verbal, whatever. Because this is the Internet, our verbal clutter and our many opinions and ideas are no longer so usefully evanescent. So, better filters might be in order.

I agree. It seems to me that, if one feels cluttered by personal development material in general, if one considers that there is nothing left to learn except other people's opinions, and that that is a dangerous trap, that one is hitting the limit or committing one's self to a lifetime of uncertainty by continuing to read (let alone write!) personal development material, then a really good filter to have in place would simply be to stop reading and writing the clutter.

Complaining about the clutter of personal development material in a personal development material website, as you produce it, on the other hand, seems like a pretty ineffective filter.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Angela

Like you! You just thought that your personal opinion in this matter was worth broadcasting to the world, and you were able to, because the boundaries to publishing it are low enough that you can. Is it true that it's worth it? Worth it enough for me to respond to, worth it enough for you to say it. Clutter to some people, and simply outside the awareness of almost everyone.

Because it's clutter to some people, should you cut it, or should you never have said it? I don't think so. If there's something there for you to say, I think it's worth your saying it. If you say something that's not worth my hearing, I'll simply choose to not listen.

No clutter; no problem. It doesn't take up space or cost me money -- except as I choose for it to. I'm not a victim of perpetrators of internet clutter.

I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to voice their opinions on things. I said I was disappointed with the result, and I explained how I came to that conclusion. That is, I wasn't just taking a shower one day and thought "Hey! Personal development blogs are generally poor quality!" No, I read hundreds of them, and found them so similar in content that most were redundant, and most were poor quality, same old clichés without any original contribution.

That's fine if you're writing an online diary, but that's not what personal development blogs are. When people write personal development blogs, they are giving advice on how people should think, behave and believe. "This is how the world is, this is what you should do, it's better to think this way, do what I tell you." Yes, people are free to ignore it, but personally I think that's irrelevant and a cop out. The ability to put out information in this way comes with a certain responsibility, the responsibility to do all you can to make sure what you are saying is beneficial, back up your reasoning, and give caveats where you are not sure.

[Medea33]

Originally Posted by Angela

Complaining about the clutter of personal development material in a personal development material website, as you produce it, on the other hand, seems like a pretty ineffective filter.

In other circumstances, I'd have thought it was similar to my former internet pet peeve: people who post off-topic posts complaining about off-topic posts. How could they not see the ridiculous symmetry? (Eventually I gave it up, just like I gave up twitching at the lose/loose issue. Too target rich an environment. )

However, I've been reading Mounds' posts for awhile and he seems to think out loud when he's working on something or working his way to somewhere. Since I enjoy the process, I'm not going to worry about the places where he's not paying attention.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

I'm not saying that people should not be allowed to voice their opinions on things. I said I was disappointed with the result, and I explained how I came to that conclusion. That is, I wasn't just taking a shower one day and thought "Hey! Personal development blogs are generally poor quality!" No, I read hundreds of them, and found them so similar in content that most were redundant, and most were poor quality, same old clichés without any original contribution.

That's fine if you're writing an online diary, but that's not what personal development blogs are. When people write personal development blogs, they are giving advice on how people should think, behave and believe. "This is how the world is, this is what you should do, it's better to think this way, do what I tell you." Yes, people are free to ignore it, but personally I think that's irrelevant and a cop out. The ability to put out information in this way comes with a certain responsibility, the responsibility to do all you can to make sure what you are saying is beneficial, back up your reasoning, and give caveats where you are not sure.

Is that The Truth? Who says the ability to put out information in this way comes with all that responsibility? Is there some authority one can apply to if a blogger doesn't do all he can to make sure what he's saying is beneficial? Will some agency enforce that responsibility?

Is it really a cop-out or irrelevant to notice that the one very effective recourse you have in regards to other people's communication is that you are free to do with it what you will? You don't really have any power to make others stop blogging in ways you don't enjoy, but you have unlimited power to make your own meanings about it, ones that work well for you, or to simply shift your attention elsewhere. I don't think that's a cop-out at all -- I think that's personal power.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Medea33

In other circumstances, I'd have thought it was similar to my former internet pet peeve: people who post off-topic posts complaining about off-topic posts. How could they not see the ridiculous symmetry? (Eventually I gave it up, just like I gave up twitching at the lose/loose issue. Too target rich an environment. )

However, I've been reading Mounds' posts for awhile and he seems to think out loud when he's working on something or working his way to somewhere. Since I enjoy the process, I'm not going to worry about the places where he's not paying attention.

I like reading what Mounds writes, too.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Angela

Is that The Truth? Who says the ability to put out information in this way comes with all that responsibility?

I don't know who says it. I'm proposing it now and have before. And I've explained my reasoning above and elsewhere. If you start a blog entitled something like "Fulfil Your Potential", set yourself up as a guru, some people will assume that you are a guru and will take you at face value. You can say "If I give bad advice, it's the reader's fault for following it, so I'll just say anything", or you can say "Some people will assume this is good advice no matter what I say, so I better do what I can to make sure I say something beneficial."

Do you not agree that if you're in a position of authority, that comes with responsibility?

Is there some authority one can apply to if a blogger doesn't do all he can to make sure what he's saying is beneficial? Will some agency enforce that responsibility?

What does regulation have to do with treating fellow humans with the decency implied by giving advice that you have put some effort into making sure is beneficial, instead of parroting something you heard elsewhere or something you made up on the spot? Whether a field is regulated or not does not take away the ethical responsibilities that go along with giving advice within that field.

Is it really a cop-out or irrelevant to notice that the one very effective recourse you have in regards to other people's communication is that you are free to do with it what you will?

I think it's a cop-out to assume that everyone who reads a personal development blog will apply a level of critical thinking to the content that would balance out any mistakes you made.

You don't really have any power to make others stop blogging in ways you don't enjoy,

I know. I don't think I should; I said this in my last post.

but you have unlimited power to make your own meanings about it, ones that work well for you, or to simply shift your attention elsewhere. I don't think that's a cop-out at all -- I think that's personal power.

If I see something that I think is wrong, I have a right to speak out against it, explain why I'm against it, and provide explanations as to what I think is a better way. This article on my site is a bit polemical, but a good summary of my thoughts on this if you're interested.