I think the real reason behind proscratination is ...

[Alan1986]

I think the real reason behind procrastination is that we are not trusting our joy as an organizing principle. According to Bashar, if you follow your joy every moment, all the things that need to be done will be done.

We procrastinate chores that we don't feel like doing because we feel that something else is more fun to do. But we rationalize that the chores should be done at this time before we do enjoyable things.

I realize that those chores are things that I thought I need to do, but really I don't need to.

I am a perfectionist and I felt like cleaning and tidying my rented apartment as perfect as it can be. But now, I don't feel like it. I changed my lifestyle to one that follows my joy at every moment. And the idea that I should move to campus came to me. I haven't made the final decision if I should move. But I am following my joy. Now, I feel that I don't have to spend so much time cleaning the apartment. And the negative feeling of procrastination and labelling myself as lazy, inefficient, etc. disappear. If I feel it is more fun to move, then that's the time I will move.

I think procrastination is a belief that we need to do something that we don't really need to do. And very often, that belief is supported by many justifications we give ourselves, but we don't really have to consider them, because they are not representative of our highest excitement.

A few days ago, I asked myself, what is it like to live my life following my joy every moment? An idea came to me. How would I live my day today, if today is my last day alive? Would I spend the rest of the day cleaning the apartment? No. I would do the things that make me happy, because I don't have much time left. Then, I realise cleaning the apartment is not what I really need to do.

What do you think?

[selina]

Sometimes the last thing I want to do is Clean. But then without thinking about it I do it and then and when its all done, i feel really good!
Just listen to that part of you that doesn't want to do it, say 'ok I understanding this is not sounding fun to you at the moment' then put on some music and just do it!
Also think how you will feel once its all done.

You can make something more pleasant by changing the way you feel about it!

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by selina

Sometimes the last thing I want to do is Clean. But then without thinking about it I do it and then and when its all done, i feel really good!
Just listen to that part of you that doesn't want to do it, say 'ok I understanding this is not sounding fun to you at the moment' then put on some music and just do it!
Also think how you will feel once its all done.

You can make something more pleasant by changing the way you feel about it!

I am thinking of moving out. So, the idea that it's all done doesn't appeal to me that much anymore.

I sense that I am taking more responsibility that I should or could. And I am using quite a large amount of time and money on this apartment. I believe if I do not follow my highest joy, then I would use more time and money than I have.

My highest joy now is to do my homework and try out some challenging questions. And I am not forcing myself to do it nor giving myself any justifications. I do it because I think it's fun now. But if it's no longer fun, I would do something else, such as watching tv or playing games. I am following my joy because I suspect it organizes things divinely. I never live my life in this way before. It sounds fun. I wonder have anyone tried it before?

[Get Inspired Today]

I think a problem with living each day as your last would leave you with a life that in 10-20 years is filled with many small joys, but a lack of anything "larger than yourself."

There is a huge distinction between being happy now and being happy in 3 years. A big part of life, in my opinion, is figuring out what truly makes us happy. For most people, they seem to regret not living for happiness in the future. How many people over 30 do you know that wished they had gone for their MBA? Or finished college?

[WarrenG]

Interesting idea about following joy, but I think that's the reason people actually do procrastinate - they are choosing immediate pleasure over delayed gratification. I don't like cleaning either, but it's easier to do now than in 2 months when there's more dirt, for instance.

But if you're defining joy differently, like 'higher joy' or something, maybe there's something in it. Following your intuition, basically. I can see that being worth trying within a particular domain, such as business/career, but for everyday life? I don't think any dishes would ever get done!

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by Get Inspired Today

I think a problem with living each day as your last would leave you with a life that in 10-20 years is filled with many small joys, but a lack of anything "larger than yourself."

There is a huge distinction between being happy now and being happy in 3 years. A big part of life, in my opinion, is figuring out what truly makes us happy. For most people, they seem to regret not living for happiness in the future. How many people over 30 do you know that wished they had gone for their MBA? Or finished college?

MBA or a college degree does not guarantee happiness and success. Bill Gates does not graduate from a college. And not everyone's highest excitement is getting an MBA or a degree. We are all different in our own ways; we are here to serve different purposes. Do what you feel excites you the most. If you feel excited about getting a degree, then that's what you should do. If you don't feel excited about getting a degree, but you want to do it because other people makes you think that getting a degree = happiness and success, then you are not living for yourself. Your current beliefs may lead you to go to college when it is not your highest joy but those beliefs cause sufferings. Now, you know why/how God/you/I/we create sufferings.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Interesting idea about following joy, but I think that's the reason people actually do procrastinate - they are choosing immediate pleasure over delayed gratification. I don't like cleaning either, but it's easier to do now than in 2 months when there's more dirt, for instance.

But if you're defining joy differently, like 'higher joy' or something, maybe there's something in it. Following your intuition, basically. I can see that being worth trying within a particular domain, such as business/career, but for everyday life? I don't think any dishes would ever get done!

Ya. It's good to try it out from one particular area. It's easier if you start from something easy. Your idea that "the reason people actually do procrastinate - they are choosing immediate pleasure over delayed gratification" is a belief, and like any beliefs, it is valid and forms our experience. When you look deeper into the underlying beliefs that support that belief, you may find a belief like "I must work hard to be successful, and working hard means sacrificing myself and going against my joy." The reason is you do not trust that by following you joy, you will be supported by the universe. The universe supports you so much that if you have that belief to go against your joy, the universe gives that experience to you.

If you change your belief, your reality starts to change accordingly. But all beliefs are self-reinforcing. If you believe you will not be supported by the universe if you follow your joy, then your reality will tell you it is indeed so, and you strengthen your belief. And your reality reflects to you your strengthened belief.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

Ya. It's good to try it out from one particular area. It's easier if you start from something easy. Your idea that "the reason people actually do procrastinate - they are choosing immediate pleasure over delayed gratification" is a belief, and like any beliefs, it is valid and forms our experience. When you look deeper into the underlying beliefs that support that belief, you may find a belief like "I must work hard to be successful, and working hard means sacrificing myself and going against my joy." The reason is you do not trust that by following you joy, you will be supported by the universe. The universe supports you so much that if you have that belief to go against your joy, the universe gives that experience to you.

If you change your belief, your reality starts to change accordingly. But all beliefs are self-reinforcing. If you believe you will not be supported by the universe if you follow your joy, then your reality will tell you it is indeed so, and you strengthen your belief. And your reality reflects to you your strengthened belief.

I'm sorry Alan, but this whole thread needs filing in the "nonsense bin"! It's not just that I personally disagree with what you say, it's just that you are acting on a faith (that things will work out fine)- and I know darn well you will fail long term in your endevour to be happy using this approach.

Get Inspired Today summed it up nicely and I suggest you re-read what he/she said. I can only assume you are too young to see the larger perspective in all this.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

I'm sorry Alan, but this whole thread needs filing in the "nonsense bin"! It's not just that I personally disagree with what you say, it's just that you are acting on a faith (that things will work out fine)- and I know darn well you will fail long term in your endevour to be happy using this approach.

Get Inspired Today summed it up nicely and I suggest you re-read what he/she said. I can only assume you are too young to see the larger perspective in all this.

I can attest to this. I spent a fair number of years acting on joy and the inevitable, "Dear God... What have I done!?!" moment hits hard. It's basically the moment where you realize that you accomplished nothing in the past few years and if had used a plan, you'd be miles ahead. Living my joy got me $24,000 in debt. If that doesn't hurt, remember that the debt is a result of overflow. I wasted every cheque I earned for a few years, probably to the tune of $30-40,000.
/killjoy off

-Tim

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by escapeplan

I'm sorry Alan, but this whole thread needs filing in the "nonsense bin"! It's not just that I personally disagree with what you say, it's just that you are acting on a faith (that things will work out fine)- and I know darn well you will fail long term in your endevour to be happy using this approach.

Get Inspired Today summed it up nicely and I suggest you re-read what he/she said. I can only assume you are too young to see the larger perspective in all this.

Yes. I'll take your comment into consideration. I feel it is important to recognize what your beliefs are and not act against them. If you believe in working hard and sacrificing yourself, but you act in such a way that does not align with you beliefs, then you will see that your reality does not change to one that you think it would. That's why it is important to discover what your deeper beliefs are. For example, the highest joy for an alcoholic may be to get drunk everyday. But if he go deeper into his issues, he may discover that his abuse of alcohol is his way to escape from himself and what he does not want to face - it could be something that happened in his past that affected him greatly. His real joy is positive. He may want to be a person who contributes a lot to society. But in his career, he may have experienced certain difficulties/people that made him lose his career, peharps in a dishonest way. And since then, he turn to alcohol to "make himself happier". But he would find that he wouldn't be happy from the inside.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I can attest to this. I spent a fair number of years acting on joy and the inevitable, "Dear God... What have I done!?!" moment hits hard. It's basically the moment where you realize that you accomplished nothing in the past few years and if had used a plan, you'd be miles ahead. Living my joy got me $24,000 in debt. If that doesn't hurt, remember that the debt is a result of overflow. I wasted every cheque I earned for a few years, probably to the tune of $30-40,000.
/killjoy off

-Tim

Suze Orman said that anyone who has a financial problem always have emotional/psychological issues. The financial issues are only the surface of deeper issues within the person. When she talks to people in debt, she always deal with their deeper issues. The debt could start to accumulate after the person broke up from a relationship, a close family member passed away, etc.

For myself, I realise I spend a lot more when I am unhappy and when I am not genuine to myself. Did you spend that money to make yourself happy?

[James81]

Originally Posted by Mounds

I can attest to this. I spent a fair number of years acting on joy and the inevitable, "Dear God... What have I done!?!" moment hits hard. It's basically the moment where you realize that you accomplished nothing in the past few years and if had used a plan, you'd be miles ahead. Living my joy got me $24,000 in debt. If that doesn't hurt, remember that the debt is a result of overflow. I wasted every cheque I earned for a few years, probably to the tune of $30-40,000.
/killjoy off

-Tim

The funny thing is, you haven't changed what you're pursuing.

Your current method (little things add up in a big way) is only changing the frequency through which you pursue it.

I would make the arguement that you weren't following your joy into debt, you were following your emptiness that when you acquired or did something with that money, it filled a part of you up, but only did so temporarily until the next fix. In other words, you've attached the meaning of "joy" to the idea of acquiring or spending money.

Your method of doing it seemed to fill you with a quick shot (like a needle directly to the vein) while you were running into debt. And, now, it's more like you have an IV in your arm letting it drip slowly.

Joy is not, nor will it EVER be, something external (like money, achievment, success, etc.). It is a state of being that you choose to access whenever you choose to access it. You can access it right now, without spending a penny if you chose to do so.

So, following your joy, has nothing to do with your goals, your achievments, or your success. That's following your FOCUS that brings you those things, and focus is very powerful for getting what you want of course. But it has little to do with joy.

Following your joy can mean that you just recognize that whatever state you are in, whether you are 50K in debt or you are a millionaire, you can choose it.

[Mounds]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

Suze Orman said that anyone who has a financial problem always have emotional/psychological issues. The financial issues are only the surface of deeper issues within the person. When she talks to people in debt, she always deal with their deeper issues. The debt could start to accumulate after the person broke up from a relationship, a close family member passed away, etc.

Ok, the next statement is 100% directed at Suze Orman:

What a pile of ****.

That is all.

[Sue_B]

Even if you move to campus, you'd still have a room and at least laundry. If cleaning doesn't make you happy, hire someone or barter with someone to do that for you.

[escapeplan]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Ok, the next statement is 100% directed at Suze Orman:

What a pile of ****.

That is all.

LOL! Couldn't agree more.

[DanFromSeoul]

I read somewhere that procrastination is a byproduct of lacking the desire to do something.

So it's not a question of being lazy. It's a question of not wanting something bad enough.

Just my 0.02c

Dan

[mint]

I would be very surprised if someone were to achieve monetary success following the "joy only" plan.

I can imagine someone content-- in a Buddhist monk sort of way-- but successful in terms of money is a different story.

There are a lot of different dimensions to success-- not just money-- but money is an easy one to quantify.

This reminds me of my Results Matrix:

1. Short Term Pleasure for Long Term Positive Results

2. Short Term Pain for Long Term Positive Results

3. Short Term Pain for Long Term Negative Results

4. Short Term Pleasure for Long Term Negative Results

The hard ones in the matrix are #2 and #4... the ones that are mismatched so to speak.

Sometimes long term positive results involve short term pain. That's life... to ignore that and go the "joy only" route... I can see that working only for a small percentage of people if at all. Some parts of the job are dirty, difficult, annoying and frustrating parts.

Maybe you should try living the "joy only" route and post the results of your experiment in 3 months time, a year's time, etc.

[truant]

I think that Alan is on to something, but that it is not quite as easy as it seems. I personally believe that a person's greatest contribution is always tied to what gives them the greatest joy, and to what moves them profoundly.

The mistake many people make is to conflate pleasure with joy. They are not the same. When we are looking for quick gratification, we are pursuing pleasure. These are conscious, ego-related drives. The mind knows what gives us pleasure and we pursue it.

Joy has more to do with a feeling of rightness and is based more on intuition, as opposed to a memory of a pleasurable act: there's no such thing as guilty joy because joy is a feeling of profound satisfaction and delight in the rightness of things. To pursue joy is to pursue that innermost sense of rightness, that feeling that this is what we 'were made to do'. Those activities that give us joy may also give us pleasure, but even when they give us pain, the pain is easily tolerated or ignored. Consider the doctor or scientist or artist who works 'around the clock' to do the very best work that they possibly can to make a big difference in people's lives. Certainly, not everyone in these professions does so, but many do. They have found their 'calling'.

I believe that many times, people pursue pleasure instead of joy because they are afraid of the consequences of acting on what they intuitively know to be right for them. In this scenario, procrastination takes the form of watching tv, playing video games, surfing the web, etc., instead of actively pursuing what they really want. This is where people stumble and end up with regrets.

Conversely, people who pride themselves on their practicality and 'work ethic' err on the other side, pursuing practical and reasonable goals instead of pursuing what they secretly desire; this leads many people to pursue frustrating and unsatisfying lives as they try to force themselves to do what they believe to be the 'adult' thing.

The secret lies in being able to listen to that intuitive guide carefully enough to discern in each moment the direction you should take to achieve your heart's desire, to ignore not only the siren call of pleasure (which lures us away from the very significant work of pursuing a calling), but also the voice of 'reason', which fills our head with doubts and rationalizations for not pursuing that path which leads, not only to our greatest good, but also the greatest good of all.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by mint

I would be very surprised if someone were to achieve monetary success following the "joy only" plan.

I can imagine someone content-- in a Buddhist monk sort of way-- but successful in terms of money is a different story.

There are a lot of different dimensions to success-- not just money-- but money is an easy one to quantify.

Bashar and Abraham said that fundamentally, there is no difference between spiritual abundance/well-being and financial abundance/well-being. It is a limitation of our belief to think that we have to give one up for the other.

Our economy today is larger compared to that in the past, eg. 10 or 20 years old. Statistical figures show that to support a person of our present lifestyles requires at least 400 slaves before emancipation. So if abundance is limited, where does the extra money today come from?

I get your point. Most people think in this way. But it doesn't hurt to free ourselves from the limitations of our beliefs, when we are comfortable to do so of course.

Originally Posted by mint

This reminds me of my Results Matrix:

1. Short Term Pleasure for Long Term Positive Results

2. Short Term Pain for Long Term Positive Results

3. Short Term Pain for Long Term Negative Results

4. Short Term Pleasure for Long Term Negative Results

The hard ones in the matrix are #2 and #4... the ones that are mismatched so to speak.

Sometimes long term positive results involve short term pain. That's life... to ignore that and go the "joy only" route... I can see that working only for a small percentage of people if at all. Some parts of the job are dirty, difficult, annoying and frustrating parts.

Maybe you should try living the "joy only" route and post the results of your experiment in 3 months time, a year's time, etc.

The conventional idea about procrastination is "You procrastinate because you are lazy and can’t manage your time well."

If that is the real root of the issue of procrastination, then we shouldn't see so many people be affected by it, especially after we know its cause.

I believe everyone has some degree of procrastination, i.e. some struggle between the present and the future. Almost every book that is on the topic mention the present and the future. Most of them focuses on the character and psychology of the person. But most, if not all, does not bring into the whole picture our conceptions/assumptions of time. Most authors write in ways as if the existence of future is unquestionably real. Instead of offering an alternative way of thinking to procrastinators (everyone), they may unknowingly reinforce the very belief system that produces procrastination.

My point is the issue of procrastination is undoubtedly tightly tied to our notion of time. I believe if we gain a deeper understanding on the nature of time, we can solve or view procrastination in a different light - a light that we now most likely have no idea about.

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

Bashar and Abraham said that fundamentally, there is no difference between spiritual abundance/well-being and financial abundance/well-being. It is a limitation of our belief to think that we have to give one up for the other.

Yes, it's funny how all spiritual speakers who sell products on how to get rich say that money is not at odds with spiritual development.

I wonder why that might be?

Our economy today is larger compared to that in the past, eg. 10 or 20 years old. Statistical figures show that to support a person of our present lifestyles requires at least 400 slaves before emancipation. So if abundance is limited, where does the extra money today come from?

Have you heard anything in the news about the modern way of life and how it affects, climate change, mass-extinction of species, oil shortages, water shortages, how richness in one country effects poverty in another, sweatshops, blood diamonds, blood gold? (etc.)

Is unsustainable economic growth an acceptable definition of abundance?

[Angela]

Acting with joy and inspiration in every moment doesn't preclude acting with a future result in mind, and acting with a future result in mind doesn't necessarily mean the actions taken in moments leading to those results must be joyless or free of inspiration.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Yes, it's funny how all spiritual speakers who sell products on how to get rich say that money is not at odds with spiritual development.

I wonder why that might be?

You believe that when spiritual well-being goes up, financial well-being goes down and vice versa. You believe that these so-called spiritual speakers tell us fantasies and lies, they are motivated to do so as they get more "dirty" money from us by cheating us with all their bull ****.

So, as they get more money, their spiritual well-being must suffer. How? Because they are doing unethical things such as cheating. That's how they gain their wealth.

So how would you advice me on life? You probably say/think:"If you wanna get rich, do something unethical. If you wanna live a life free of guilt, remain as poor as you can. That's more ethical. Money is dirty - very, very DIRTY."

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Have you heard anything in the news about the modern way of life and how it affects, climate change, mass-extinction of species, oil shortages, water shortages, how richness in one country effects poverty in another, sweatshops, blood diamonds, blood gold? (etc.)

Is unsustainable economic growth an acceptable definition of abundance?

You think along this line:"If we wanna live a comfortable life, we must destroy the environment or rob the poor nations. If we wanna save the environment, we must live as uncomfortably as we can."

I am not saying this belief is right or wrong, ethical or unethical. I am just putting this belief in a clearer light.

Why can't I say this belief is right or wrong? Because:

All beliefs serve a purpose and fulfill a need. - Seth

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Mounds

Ok, the next statement is 100% directed at Suze Orman:

What a pile of ****.

That is all.

ICAM.

The whole problem is when people who never had financial issues psychoanalyze people who do have financial issues and come to a conclusion that fits many people and decide it fits everyone. And a secondary problem involves people who did get into financial trouble due to reactions to depressing events, etc., and decide that their situation fits everyone else.

For some reason it's hard for a lot of individuals on the outside of the situation to accept the premise: "I was just having a lot of fun and I was stupid about money."

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

ICAM.

The whole problem is when people who never had financial issues psychoanalyze people who do have financial issues and come to a conclusion that fits many people and decide it fits everyone. And a secondary problem involves people who did get into financial trouble due to reactions to depressing events, etc., and decide that their situation fits everyone else.

For some reason it's hard for a lot of individuals on the outside of the situation to accept the premise: "I was just having a lot of fun and I was stupid about money."

The concept that I get is:

1. I spend a lot of money, more than what I have, to have a lot of fun.

2. I am buying happiness using money.

3. I seek happiness from external circumstances. I don't believe one can have happiness by looking inward.

4. If one does not understand that happiness arises from inside out, then one spends more money than one has.

[WarrenG]

Don't put words in my mouth Alan; I'll tell you what I believe, rather than you presuming it.

Originally Posted by Alan1986

You believe that when spiritual well-being goes up, financial well-being goes down and vice versa. You believe that these so-called spiritual speakers tell us fantasies and lies, they are motivated to do so as they get more "dirty" money from us by cheating us with all their bull ****.

So, as they get more money, their spiritual well-being must suffer. How? Because they are doing unethical things such as cheating. That's how they gain their wealth.

I do wonder why spiritual advisors whose system is based on love and compassion would endorse uncritical participation in an exploitative system. Could it have something to do with the fact that it's beneficial to themselves?

So how would you advice me on life? You probably say/think:"If you wanna get rich, do something unethical. If you wanna live a life free of guilt, remain as poor as you can. That's more ethical. Money is dirty - very, very DIRTY."

Money isn't inherently dirty - it's just a symbol. It's how it's used and the systems it is the lifeblood of that is dirty. If you've read Atlas Shrugged, D'Anconia's speech to Rearden is a great example of how money should be seen. You can do ethical things to make money, what I would like to know is, does doing an ethical thing to make money (but continuing to support a system that is being used to do bad things) do more good overall than not supporting that system at all? I don't know the answer to this, it's something I'm trying to learn more about.

Anyway, this is beside the point. You used economic growth as an indicator of abundance, I pointed out economic growth causes abundance in one place but poverty in another, and I asked whether you thought that was an acceptable definition of abundance.

You think along this line:"If we wanna live a comfortable life, we must destroy the environment or rob the poor nations. If we want to save the environment, we must live as uncomfortably as we can."

Completely untrue.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

I do wonder why spiritual advisors whose system is based on love and compassion would endorse uncritical participation in an exploitative system. Could it have something to do with the fact that it's beneficial to themselves?

Money isn't inherently dirty - it's just a symbol. It's how it's used and the systems it is the lifeblood of that is dirty. If you've read Atlas Shrugged, D'Anconia's speech to Rearden is a great example of how money should be seen. You can do ethical things to make money, what I would like to know is, does doing an ethical thing to make money (but continuing to support a system that is being used to do bad things) do more good overall than not supporting that system at all?

I do not know to what degree and in what ways do you judge the system to be:

uncritically exploitative,
rewarding to selfish individuals,
dirty, and
used to do bad things.

You attitude may be improved by considering the positive contributions of the system. All things may be judged as "good" or "bad".
"All circumstances are fundamentally neutral. The meaning you put into them is the meaning you get out of them." - Bashar.

If you believe that you experience your present reality because this is what you needed/wanted most, and there is a "discomfort" in you caused by your situation/observation of the system, then you know that your present beliefs place you in this system to reflect to you and allow you to examine your beliefs.

Originally Posted by WarrenG

I don't know the answer to this, it's something I'm trying to learn more about.

As you learn more, you reveal to yourself more of your beliefs. Your reality does not judge whether you have "good" or "bad" beliefs. It is just offering you the opportunity to change beliefs that you do not prefer/keep beliefs that you prefer.

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Anyway, this is beside the point. You used economic growth as an indicator of abundance, I pointed out economic growth causes abundance in one place but poverty in another, and I asked whether you thought that was an acceptable definition of abundance.

My definition of abundance is: the ability to do what you need to do when you need to do it. GDP may not necessarily grow with abundance. It definitely does not reflect the entirety of human well-being.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

The concept that I get is:

1. I spend a lot of money, more than what I have, to have a lot of fun.

2. I am buying happiness using money.

3. I seek happiness from external circumstances. I don't believe one can have happiness by looking inward.

4. If one does not understand that happiness arises from inside out, then one spends more money than one has.

The flaw I see in this premise is it leaves out this:

1. I spend a lot of money, less than what I have, to have a lot of fun.

Why is that not buying happiness using money?

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

I do not know to what degree and in what ways do you judge the system to be:

uncritically exploitative,
rewarding to selfish individuals,
dirty, and
used to do bad things.

Then you should have read the previous post I wrote to you, because I gave 8 examples.

You attitude may be improved by considering the positive contributions of the system. All things may be judged as "good" or "bad".
"All circumstances are fundamentally neutral. The meaning you put into them is the meaning you get out of them." - Bashar.

This isn't about my attitude. I was responding to your point that economic growth is an indication of abundance.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

The flaw I see in this premise is it leaves out this:

1. I spend a lot of money, less than what I have, to have a lot of fun.

Why is that not buying happiness using money?

It is, if you choose to see it that way (as it really depends on the thoughts of the person spending the money), buying happiness using money that I have or buying happiness within my means.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Then you should have read the previous post I wrote to you, because I gave 8 examples.

I mean I don't have enough infomation from your statement: "how the modern way of life affects, climate change, mass-extinction of species, oil shortages, water shortages, how richness in one country affects poverty in another, sweatshops, blood diamonds, blood gold?" to comment on:

to what extent climate changes, how it changes,
to what extent species are going extinct, how they are going extinct,
to what extent oil is in short supply, how it is in short supply,
to what extent water is in short supply, how it is in short supply,
to what extent the richness in a country creates poverty in another, how it creates poverty in another,
to what extent sweatshops are a problem, how they are a problem,
to what extent blood diamonds are a problem, how they are a problem,
to what extent blood gold is a problem, how it is a problem.

I don't have such infomation at my fingertips as I am not an expert in this field. And I don't see myself becoming one since it is not my highest joy. So you can't expect me to tell you what's "wrong" with the system.

If you ask me: "Why do bad things happen?" I would say it is for the greater good. And the how of it is beyond human understanding. - Eckhart Tolle

If you believe in LoA, then bad things happen as a mirror to our beliefs.

To put it simply, my suggestion is: "there are 2 sides on this issue." Or you can follow themaster's suggestion: "there is no right and wrong."

Originally Posted by WarrenG

This isn't about my attitude. I was responding to your point that economic growth is an indication of abundance.

Your reply was written in such a way as if I am taking economic activities as the only or the most important indicator of abundance.

If abundance is limited, isn't it more logical for GDP to be a constant? And I get your point that the extra GDP comes from robbing resources from our environment and poor nations. So you believe that if we do not rob resources from our environment and poor nations, then GDP should be constant?

If abundance is limited, how is it that our current lifestyle is supported by no slaves when it used to be supported by at least 400 slaves before emancipation? So you believe that if we do not rob resources from our environment and poor nations, then our current lifestyle has to be supported by at least 400 slaves?

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Is unsustainable economic growth an acceptable definition of abundance?

To me, even sustainable economic growth is not an acceptable definition of abundance.

Because I choose the definition of abundance to be: the ability to do what you need to do when you need to do it. Any other definitions are not acceptable to me. But I allow you to choose any definition of your liking. I allow any being to follow his/her will as this is Tao.