I think the real reason behind proscratination is ...

[WarrenG]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

Your reply was written in such a way as if I am taking economic activities as the only or the most indicator of abundance.

No, not the only indicator, or the best indicator, but you certainly used it as an indicator! I'm not questioning whether there is abundance or not, because certainly, there is (in the West and some other places). What I'm questioning is, is it valid to rejoice in the abundance you have, if you have it at someone else's expense (or environmental damage)? Is this truly abundance? I say no.

So you believe that if we do not rob resources from our environment and poor nations, then GDP should be constant?

No; that doesn't logically follow.

If abundance is limited, how is it that our current lifestyles is supported by no slaves

It is - we just pay them next to nothing instead of nothing.

But as you say, there are other things that make up abundance. We share this common ground.

Where we differ is that I don't believe national economic activity is a measure of abundance - at all.

Maybe on a personal level, it can give you freedom etc., and certainly we do need it to get by. But as I say, I don't know enough to know whether economic activity on a personal level would be open to the same criticisms. On one hand it shouldn't, because you could make money in ethical ways. On the other hand, you then put your money in a bank, and what does the bank do with it? Then you buy stuff, where did it come from, what impact does it have? I mean, it's not like we're going into poor countries personally and taking things away, and you can make more ethical purchasing decisions. But it's all linked.

[moonrambler]

Originally Posted by Alan1986

It is, if you choose to see it that way (as it really depends on the thoughts of the person spending the money), buying happiness using money that I have or buying happiness within my means.

But apparently what you're saying is that a person spending lots of money within his means may not be buying happiness with money, while a person spending lots of money on credit is definitely buying happiness with money.

My opinion is the person spending money on credit may simply be having fun and not feel like working hard enough to earn the money ahead of time, or may be totally confident it'll be no problem to pay back the credit fairly quickly even if their current income does not support that belief, or may be totally irresponsible, or any number of factors that have nothing to do with some depressing life event.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by moonrambler

But apparently what you're saying is that a person spending lots of money within his means may not be buying happiness with money, while a person spending lots of money on credit is definitely buying happiness with money.

Whether or not a person is buying happiness with money is hard to judge from the outside. Because two person may be doing the same thing (or more precisely, almost the same thing, because no two person can do the same thing since they can never have the same quantum state) but with totally different belief systems and hence get totally different results. So, it is possible for people to follow what "successful" and "happy" people do, but fail to be successful and happy themselves.

So if you asked whether a person is buying happiness with money if he do x, the answer is that as this involves examining the beliefs of the individual, to be closer to the answer, you need to know the individual personally. Since all experience is subjective, you may interpret him to be buying happiness with money, but he may not in his reality. There is always some "distortion" in this sense, and you wouldn't know what he is thinking and experiencing from his perspective unless you are him.

Originally Posted by moonrambler

My opinion is the person spending money on credit may simply be having fun and not feel like working hard enough to earn the money ahead of time, or may be totally confident it'll be no problem to pay back the credit fairly quickly even if their current income does not support that belief, or may be totally irresponsible, or any number of factors that have nothing to do with some depressing life event.

Yes. And I'm saying it is possible for the individual to go deeper into his beliefs when he is comfortable.

Why do you want to spend money on credit simply to have fun?
Why do you not feel like working hard enough to earn the money ahead of time?
Why are you totally confident it'll be no problem to pay back the credit fairly quickly even if your current income does not support that belief?
Why are you totally irresponsible?
Why do you put yourself into debt when you have no depressing life event?

It's not compulsory for the individual to ask these questions for himself. And they are not meant to judge him. This is just one way for him to explore his deeper beliefs, if and when he is comfortable.

If you believe that we are made in the image of God, or we are God, then why are we doing "unGodly" things or why is God doing "unGodly" things? But you may choose to see going into debt as "Godly" as it depends on your definitions and beliefs.

[Alan1986]

Originally Posted by WarrenG

Where we differ is that I don't believe national economic activity is a measure of abundance - at all.

Maybe on a personal level, it can give you freedom etc., and certainly we do need it to get by. But as I say, I don't know enough to know whether economic activity on a personal level would be open to the same criticisms. On one hand it shouldn't, because you could make money in ethical ways. On the other hand, you then put your money in a bank, and what does the bank do with it? Then you buy stuff, where did it come from, what impact does it have? I mean, it's not like we're going into poor countries personally and taking things away, and you can make more ethical purchasing decisions. But it's all linked.

If you are interested in this topic, then you may find out more and tell us what you know/think. I don't have enough infomation on this topic.