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Mounds · 10-14-2010, 04:58 PM

So about that brain of ours... I mentioned in another thread that it takes in millions of bits of information, puts it through a handy filter (which distorts, deletes and generalizes) and gives us seven pieces of information, plus or minus two.
I was having a discussion with a coworker today that got me thinking. We were talking about women in the workplace. I was going through a report from StatsCanada and happened to notice that men still make significantly more money than women in the workplace (I'm talking $10,000+/year). Upon bringing it up, I was met with "No, I know lots of women who make just as much as men. Therefore, that's not true". Prior to reading that report, I had the same notion. Things were looking pretty equal.
This is one thing about human beings: we're prone to mistakes and we tend to take our perceptions a little too seriously. This is why I love and will never give up objective reality. Objective reality doesn't care what you think of it. It just is. While SR changes depending on our current beliefs, whims and whatever else, OR stays the same.
Another good example is when over-zealous scientists name the same animal four times, without realizing it (it happens). In an SR viewpoint, it's four different species. In OR, it's one with a bunch of different names assigned to it. Just depends on how you look at it.
Many people will argue that a linden and a basswood are two different trees. I once walked onto a guys yard and said, "Nice basswood trees!" and he argued with me that they were all lindens! SR fail.

-Tim

Angela · 10-14-2010, 05:15 PM

Tim, you sure do focus on subjective reality a lot, for someone who, try as you might, is just not interested in subjective reality.

SlicK · 10-14-2010, 05:18 PM

My reality is subjective even in objective reality because I can change everything around me.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 05:19 PM

I'm actively trying to find it's place in my life and eliminate it where it doesn't belong.

I can see it as being an extremely useful viewpoint for anything that requires a dose of creativity. Where specifics matter, not so much.

Angela · 10-14-2010, 05:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

I'm actively trying to find it's place in my life and eliminate it where it doesn't belong.

I can see it as being an extremely useful viewpoint for anything that requires a dose of creativity. Where specifics matter, not so much.

So, you ARE interested in it, after all?

SatvikBeri · 10-14-2010, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

So about that brain of ours... I mentioned in another thread that it takes in millions of bits of information, puts it through a handy filter (which distorts, deletes and generalizes) and gives us seven pieces of information, plus or minus two.
I was having a discussion with a coworker today that got me thinking. We were talking about women in the workplace. I was going through a report from StatsCanada and happened to notice that men still make significantly more money than women in the workplace (I'm talking $10,000+/year). Upon bringing it up, I was met with "No, I know lots of women who make just as much as men. Therefore, that's not true". Prior to reading that report, I had the same notion. Things were looking pretty equal.
This is one thing about human beings: we're prone to mistakes and we tend to take our perceptions a little too seriously. This is why I love and will never give up objective reality. Objective reality doesn't care what you think of it. It just is. While SR changes depending on our current beliefs, whims and whatever else, OR stays the same.
Another good example is when over-zealous scientists name the same animal four times, without realizing it (it happens). In an SR viewpoint, it's four different species. In OR, it's one with a bunch of different names assigned to it. Just depends on how you look at it.

A. Just checking-you realize that what you gave is not an argument that OR is "true", but that it's an argument for using an OR perspective, right?
B. I doubt any of the people in your example knew anything about Subjective Reality. Subjective Reality doesn't really have anything to do with "All the women I know make as much as men, therefore women everywhere make as much as men." That's like comparing computer programming with knowing how to count on your fingers. If you want to make a point that an OR perspective is more useful, you should use people with an SR perspective as examples.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:09 PM

Well, I'm now under the assumption that SR is the default lens. It's kind of impossible to get an objective view as you are experiencing things since everything must pass through those filters. In my own SR, women and men were equal in the workplace. After reading a document that takes a cold, hard look at the facts, I'm realizing that no matter what my SR tells me, it just doesn't jive.
It's the kinda the same thing when ten people witness a car accident. The brain registers that something happened but it tends to miss the color of the vehicle. So out of those ten people, three will say the car was red, two will say it was white, three blue and two black. They will be 100% convinced of the color of that car until they see it and are proven otherwise.
SR has the power to make us believe things that are just not true. So using a SR lens on things that really should be objective tends to go horribly wrong. Another example:

The question demands an objective answer and receives a subjective response. The end result? An objective 0. There is only one answer and an elephant isn't it.

-Tim

James81 · 10-14-2010, 07:09 PM

Bwahahahaha...I love your sig!

Here's how I make subjective reality make sense:

Subjective reality begins where objective reality ends.

But I'm just a tiny little button in this gigantic universe. Any objective truth I try to select can ultimately be proven as but a local truth in a much bigger pond.

How can I, a tiny little dot in a gigantic universe, ever really know what is objectively true?

The most objective truth I know and can think of is gravity. (Out of curiosity, what is yours? That thing that seems to be the MOST objectively true to you?)

What goes up absolutely MUST come down, unless acted on by some outside force in some way, right?

Go to outer space and tell me how that works out for you.

(in fact, "up" and "down" are very different to you depending on what side of the earth you are on

)

Even gravity behaves differently if you zoom out.

So, essentially, it's all about your zooming abilities. Zoom in, you get subjective truths. Zoom out far enough and you can have objective truths. But, as a tiny little dot, you can never really zoom out enough to know for sure what is objective, so you essentially define and determine your own objective truths...subjectively.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James81

Subjective reality begins where objective reality ends.

I find quite the opposite to be true! SR ends where OR begins

Very interesting post.

James81 · 10-14-2010, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

I find quite the opposite to be true! SR ends where OR begins

Is that really the opposite of what I said? Look at the two statements side by side and see if they aren't saying the same thing? (I really don't know because it's befungling my mind.

)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

Very interesting post.

Thanks.

What is your most objective truth? The thing that seems to be the most true to you? (I am curious about that for anybody who reads this actually)

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James81

What is your most objective truth? The thing that seems to be the most true to you? (I am curious about that for anybody who reads this actually)

My most objective truth would be mathematics.

James81 · 10-14-2010, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

My most objective truth would be mathematics.

That's a good one.

Angela · 10-14-2010, 07:40 PM

Here is a very interesting essay that describes why mathematics, while not false, are not true, either -- although they are a very useful model of the world.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:43 PM

In response to all of Angela's future posts disagreeing with me:

"No, there is an elephant in the way"

James81 · 10-14-2010, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

Here is a very interesting essay

I think if you have three red balls, you should go seek a doctor immediately.

Angela · 10-14-2010, 07:45 PM

You're being very inconsistent for someone who advocates consistency, Tim.

Angela · 10-14-2010, 07:46 PM

Having an elephant in your way can do that to a person.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

You're being very inconsistent for someone who advocates consistency, Tim.

I blame ADD... and society.

st33med · 10-14-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

Having an elephant in your way can do that to a person.

Is it a pink elephant?

James81 · 10-14-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

I blame ADD

Ha! Using a mathmatical term as an abbreviation to reject the concept of subjectivity is the most ironic thing I've read today!

Good work, my brother. In fact, you are being very consistent using the term "ADD" as something to blame for why you can't see subjective reality because your most objective truth is mathematics, which contains the concept of addition!

st33med · 10-14-2010, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

I blame ADD... and society.

Hrmmm.... blaming something you label yourself as.

Mounds · 10-14-2010, 07:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by st33med

Hrmmm.... blaming something you label yourself as.

Cause I can Andrew. Cause I can.

LostMyMap · 10-14-2010, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

Here is a very interesting essay that describes why mathematics, while not false, are not true, either -- although they are a very useful model of the world.

That is a very interesting essay. I don't agree with it, but it is interesting.

LostMyMap · 10-14-2010, 09:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by James81

I think if you have three red balls, you should go seek a doctor immediately.

From what you posted in the girl's thread, I was thinking you had two that were blue.

elucidate · 10-15-2010, 01:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lostmymap

from what you posted in the girl's thread, i was thinking you had two that were blue.

Acting Like Godot · 10-15-2010, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mounds

I was going through a report from StatsCanada and happened to notice that men still make significantly more money than women in the workplace (I'm talking $10,000+/year). Upon bringing it up, I was met with "No, I know lots of women who make just as much as men. Therefore, that's not true". Prior to reading that report, I had the same notion. Things were looking pretty equal.
This is one thing about human beings: we're prone to mistakes and we tend to take our perceptions a little too seriously. This is why I love and will never give up objective reality. Objective reality doesn't care what you think of it. It just is.

More often than not,

I find what you would regard as

"objective reality"

as quite completely useless.

How has it benefited

you, to know

that x% of men earn what

in Canada,

and y% of women earn what

in Canada?

I am glad that I did not

find out

what the average market salary

of a lawyer like me

was supposed to be,

until I was earning well above it -

otherwise that piece of

"objective" reality

would be just an additional

nuisance of a

limiting belief that

I would have

to overcome.

machoman · 10-15-2010, 04:12 PM

interesting topic....

I have a question. Which reality is more useful in the pursuit of one's goals and dreams...? objective or subjective reality?

Angela · 10-15-2010, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by machoman

interesting topic....

I have a question. Which reality is more useful in the pursuit of one's goals and dreams...? objective or subjective reality?

For me, it depends on the goal or dream -- it works well to remain flexible in moving among perspectives.

mikej · 10-15-2010, 04:23 PM

it doesn't matter to me if objective reality exists or not. i have a feeling that it doesn't but i don't feel the need to know either way.

i can see a direct correlation between my inner and outer world so for me viewing reality subjectively is what's important and practical.

LostMyMap · 10-15-2010, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Angela

For me, it depends on the goal or dream -- it works well to remain flexible in moving among perspectives.

I think I like this answer the best! No surprise...

10-14-2010, 04:58 PM	#1 (permalink)
Mounds Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,853	Objective reality vs Subjective Reality debate So about that brain of ours... I mentioned in another thread that it takes in millions of bits of information, puts it through a handy filter (which distorts, deletes and generalizes) and gives us seven pieces of information, plus or minus two. I was having a discussion with a coworker today that got me thinking. We were talking about women in the workplace. I was going through a report from StatsCanada and happened to notice that men still make significantly more money than women in the workplace (I'm talking $10,000+/year). Upon bringing it up, I was met with "No, I know lots of women who make just as much as men. Therefore, that's not true". Prior to reading that report, I had the same notion. Things were looking pretty equal. This is one thing about human beings: we're prone to mistakes and we tend to take our perceptions a little too seriously. This is why I love and will never give up objective reality. Objective reality doesn't care what you think of it. It just is. While SR changes depending on our current beliefs, whims and whatever else, OR stays the same. Another good example is when over-zealous scientists name the same animal four times, without realizing it (it happens). In an SR viewpoint, it's four different species. In OR, it's one with a bunch of different names assigned to it. Just depends on how you look at it. Many people will argue that a linden and a basswood are two different trees. I once walked onto a guys yard and said, "Nice basswood trees!" and he argued with me that they were all lindens! SR fail. -Tim

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10-14-2010, 05:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
Angela Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 22,520	Tim, you sure do focus on subjective reality a lot, for someone who, try as you might, is just not interested in subjective reality.

10-14-2010, 05:18 PM	#3 (permalink)
SlicK Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Posts: 312	My reality is subjective even in objective reality because I can change everything around me.

10-14-2010, 05:19 PM	#4 (permalink)
Mounds Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,853	I'm actively trying to find it's place in my life and eliminate it where it doesn't belong. I can see it as being an extremely useful viewpoint for anything that requires a dose of creativity. Where specifics matter, not so much.

10-14-2010, 07:09 PM	#7 (permalink)
Mounds Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,853	Well, I'm now under the assumption that SR is the default lens. It's kind of impossible to get an objective view as you are experiencing things since everything must pass through those filters. In my own SR, women and men were equal in the workplace. After reading a document that takes a cold, hard look at the facts, I'm realizing that no matter what my SR tells me, it just doesn't jive. It's the kinda the same thing when ten people witness a car accident. The brain registers that something happened but it tends to miss the color of the vehicle. So out of those ten people, three will say the car was red, two will say it was white, three blue and two black. They will be 100% convinced of the color of that car until they see it and are proven otherwise. SR has the power to make us believe things that are just not true. So using a SR lens on things that really should be objective tends to go horribly wrong. Another example: The question demands an objective answer and receives a subjective response. The end result? An objective 0. There is only one answer and an elephant isn't it. -Tim

10-14-2010, 07:09 PM	#8 (permalink)
James81 Banned Join Date: Apr 2009 Posts: 12,690	Bwahahahaha...I love your sig! Here's how I make subjective reality make sense: Subjective reality begins where objective reality ends. But I'm just a tiny little button in this gigantic universe. Any objective truth I try to select can ultimately be proven as but a local truth in a much bigger pond. How can I, a tiny little dot in a gigantic universe, ever really know what is objectively true? The most objective truth I know and can think of is gravity. (Out of curiosity, what is yours? That thing that seems to be the MOST objectively true to you?) What goes up absolutely MUST come down, unless acted on by some outside force in some way, right? Go to outer space and tell me how that works out for you. (in fact, "up" and "down" are very different to you depending on what side of the earth you are on ) Even gravity behaves differently if you zoom out. So, essentially, it's all about your zooming abilities. Zoom in, you get subjective truths. Zoom out far enough and you can have objective truths. But, as a tiny little dot, you can never really zoom out enough to know for sure what is objective, so you essentially define and determine your own objective truths...subjectively.

10-14-2010, 07:40 PM	#13 (permalink)
Angela Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 22,520	Here is a very interesting essay that describes why mathematics, while not false, are not true, either -- although they are a very useful model of the world.

10-14-2010, 07:43 PM	#14 (permalink)
Mounds Family Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Posts: 3,853	In response to all of Angela's future posts disagreeing with me: "No, there is an elephant in the way"

10-14-2010, 07:45 PM	#16 (permalink)
Angela Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 22,520	You're being very inconsistent for someone who advocates consistency, Tim.

10-14-2010, 07:46 PM	#17 (permalink)
Angela Banned Join Date: Nov 2006 Posts: 22,520	Having an elephant in your way can do that to a person.

10-15-2010, 04:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
machoman Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Posts: 607	interesting topic.... I have a question. Which reality is more useful in the pursuit of one's goals and dreams...? objective or subjective reality?

10-15-2010, 04:23 PM	#29 (permalink)
mikej Family Member Join Date: Aug 2010 Posts: 1,635	it doesn't matter to me if objective reality exists or not. i have a feeling that it doesn't but i don't feel the need to know either way. i can see a direct correlation between my inner and outer world so for me viewing reality subjectively is what's important and practical.

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