Free will

[DaveTyler]

Do we have it, or is everything determined?

[Brutha]

Yes, we have it and everything is determined.

[DarkSociologist]

Why does it matter? Will the answer affect who you are?

[Jaben]

Yes, we have it and everything is determined.

That would imply that your choices are not included in everything, whoever YOU are.
By definition nothing can be excluded from everything. So you can't have both. Either you have no free will or some things happen (or appear to happen) with out being caused.

[ethereal]

As conditioned egos we have free will. From the point of view of the universe, what we think of as free will is just everything spontaneously happening on its own. Nothing is predetermined, i.e. in order to predetermine everything happening in All-That-Is, it would have to be outside of it in order to predetermine it, but nothing can be outside of All-That-Is -- what will predetermine the predetermination?

[Nelson]

In my experience we definitely have free will. I say this because there are objectives that require concious effort. Such as becomeing a black belt or becoming president of the U.S. Those sort of things dont happen on accident. If you did not make the choice to become one of those then they would never happen to you. Those objectives cannot fall into your lap - they require someone to make the CHOICE to commit to their completion.

You could argue that some people are predetermined to actually desire becoming a black belt or becoming president. But that's ridiculous because by that same logic people would be naturally predetermined to become child rapists and criminals.

Any supernatural force that would predetermine our fates would not force someone to be a criminal.

[Glass Joe]

Since this thread is in the "Personal Effectiveness" forum, I'm going to first say that yes, we do have "free will". We all have the personal freedom to live our lives however we see fit, regardless of any outside influence, authority, or ideology. This is the kind of "free will" and "freedom" exemplified in movies like "Braveheart". (And Braveheart is one of my all-time favorite movies.)

However, from a metaphysical/philosophical perspective, I'd have to say no, we don't have free will at all. But that doesn't automatically mean that everything is pre-determined either.

The "Free will vs. determinism" problem is actually unsolvable and can't be answered either way (like dividing by zero or trying to draw a square circle).

The "Free will vs. determinism" problem is unsolvable because it falsely presupposes that there is an individual "will" to either (a) be free or (b) be pushed around by external forces (cultural and environmental).

The "Free will vs. determinism" problem presents a false dichotomy. It isn't simply one or the other. It's like asking someone "Do you want to be free or do you want to be a slave?".

Is it possible to *freely* choose to be a slave?

And now that I think about it, how can you *freely* choose to be free, if you weren't already free before you made the choice?

There is neither creation nor destruction;
Neither destiny nor free will;
Neither path nor achievement;
This is the final truth.
-- Ramana Maharishi

Will is an imaginary function of an imaginary entity.
As ultimate Reality we can have no will, for Non-Being is devoid of attributes.
As relative Reality, in the dualist aspect of Consciousness and objects of Consciousness – Observer and all that is observed – we are integrated in the Cosmos and act accordingly.
As individuals we are merely figments and cannot have will other than as desire and its opposite.
Will, therefore, is just a figure of speech. We are like passengers in a railway-train who think that we can change our mind and make the train go anywhere we wish.
-- Wei Wu Wei

[bellbird]

Interesting post. How about you choose of free will before you live the corporal experience, about what you like to experience as a human being. Once in the body you have free will to choose how to deal with situations as a consequence of what you have chosen to experience? Just a thought..

Yes, we have it and everything is determined.

[JoeBlogs]

Originally Posted by Glass Joe

The "Free will vs. determinism" problem is unsolvable because it falsely presupposes that there is an individual "will" to either (a) be free or (b) be pushed around by external forces (cultural and environmental).

There is an individual.

[Liara Covert]

Having 'free will' is a point of view. Making a choice is an experience. A belief that you have the freedom to choose is an opinion about that experience. As for the individual who grows to understand more, to digest more and is willing to see the self differently, a perception of free will may be considered part of personal evolution.

[starlet]

Yes and no. I believe we camee here with a purpose, but we chose that purpose when we chose to come here. How we get there is the free will part of human existance, but we already "know" where we are going.

[Smokefish]

I believe we have choice, which I interpret as free will. I believe the outcome is predetermined based on the choices we make.

For example, when I was 9 I had a deja vu type dream. The events that transpired in the dream happened 17 years later when I was 26. I believe my choices led me to the predetermined event and I could have made other choices that would have led to some other predetermined event... I hope that makes sense

[MartialDev]

Free will is incompatible with cause and effect.

[Sunnybayes]

I say evolution has programmed into us highest level goals of any human which is to seek knowledge so that we can better predict our world and therefore survive better in it, the goal to seek relationships, and the goal of helping community. And maybe some other top level fuzzy goals related to human survival that I've not thought of.

But nature gave us free will to decide how to accomplish those goals.

[Jaben]

Originally Posted by MartialDev

Free will is incompatible with cause and effect.

The question boils down to when you make a choice is the decision a predetermined outcome of previous circumstances or can no cause be attributed to the outcome?

I find either unfathomable. On one hand, I cannot imagine that the decisions I make are already predetermined ( no free will ). On the other hand, if something happens I would expect that it was a natural progression of previous circumstances.

If your software has a bug, it's because of how the code was written. If you fix it it's because you used the laws of cause and effect to do it. And you did it because you have evolved to do so. And that is all a result of the preconditions that were set when existence began.

But what set the preconditions at the time existence began? That thing would have to be outside of time and virtually not exist.

To me this question shows me there is a flaw in how I understand who "I" am and what exactly time, existence and cause and effect are.

[moviestar]

I agree with Glass Joe. We can never answer this question. We would have to step out of our minds to see that and that will never happen.
From a Personal Effectiveness point of view I find that the belief that I have limited free will has helped me extremely in my personal development. The notion that I have maybe 5% "will power" the rest is just external forces or my unconscious mind. I have free will maybe several times a day, I can make a veto. I can for example notice some habit and decide to stop it. But this happens very rarely when you think about it.

Any supernatural force that would predetermine our fates would not force someone to be a criminal.

What!? That's absurd, why do you think that? What about Satan (assuming she exists).

[judge45]

Saying we have no free will makes this reality completely pointless. It means we are just puppets of something else and unless we are puppets of our own purposeful consciousness, we might as well be dead.

Maybe we control it all, maybe we work with God or maybe we work with the energy of the universe to get what we wnat and to direct our lives on purpose.

To think there is no control by you oin any level makes the whole thing useless, why bother?

HTH

Jeff

[DaveTyler]

Thanks for all the answers guys, and I mean, your offered 2 choices, your the one who chose, it's partly determined as you have to respond to it, but in the end YOU respond to it, right?

Otherwise a serial killer could just say, SORRY it wasn't my will, it was determined and claim freedom. right?

[Sunnybayes]

Originally Posted by judge45

To think there is no control by you oin any level makes the whole thing useless, why bother?

hehe... I'd say because we're programmed to bother by evolution/physics and that we've got no choice but to bother (at least on some level), just like a rock has no choice but to fall down because of gravity.

You might say that you just don't care about life anymore and have a smug attitude, but then deep down inside you can't help but wish things were better.

I guess you can commit suicide, because you have free will to, and that you can consciously override the built in feeling, but usually that happens because you cannot see any possible way to make your life better, you want to make it better but you think you can't. And that it would somehow benefit something at some higher level because you are teaching people a point no to do bad things to people like they have done you..., "that'll show em". So you tried to bother, by not bothering and going for the better goal of teaching people a lesson, or maybe it was to end the pain, but to end the pain means higher pleasure, but of course you are not around to enjoy the pleasure. But at least you default gut feeling is to want to bother.

And yes we had the choice to choose if we wanted to respond to this post, but the basis for that decision was made from either habit/subconscious, or if we "consciously" chose, then we had no choice but to choose the choice that would give us the most benefit. Or you could have consciously chosen the choice that would not have benefited you the most, but you would have had to pile on another layer of consciousness, and would have done so to make yourself feel better and to prove to yourself the better point that yes I do have free will not to respond.

And for evil people, they are just bothering with life to gain power and are too selfish.

And the criminal that claimed he had no choice, he was just unlucky that he had the circumstances that made it seem like whatever action he chose was the best action that made it seem the best way to optimize towards goodness. But then the people who are his peers are forced to decide that his
argument is a bunch of B.S. and that it would help society the best to have him locked away.

So I basically I see it that nature has forced us to optimize the good in our decisions, and what is defined as good depends on a balance of helping yourself or helping community (light/dark worker maybe)

And also, for the people who are lucky enough to be in good circumstances, we have no choice but to want to help out people who are not as lucky.

And yea, it is kinda sad that way, but then again I have no choice but to choose the action that will make me feel best which is to not let this get to me, explore this thought a little more to see why its not such a bad thing, so that I can feel better, and to just laugh at it. and say

Oh well, I guess I'm a biological robot out to do good.

[MartialDev]

Originally Posted by judge45

Saying we have no free will makes this reality completely pointless. It means we are just puppets of something else and unless we are puppets of our own purposeful consciousness, we might as well be dead.

Maybe we control it all, maybe we work with God or maybe we work with the energy of the universe to get what we wnat and to direct our lives on purpose.

To think there is no control by you oin any level makes the whole thing useless, why bother?

HTH

Jeff

Please see "Appeal to consequences fallacy".

[Keith]

Originally Posted by Nelson

Any supernatural force that would predetermine our fates would not force someone to be a criminal.

AFAIK, the predestination argument is generally based on causality. As far as we can tell, we're physically constructed of standard atoms, chemicals and energy (heat, electricity etc.). Therefore, our component parts are bound by the laws of physics, chemistry etc. The interactions of these parts are incredibly complex so creating an accurate model of a whole human being is currently beyond our knowledge and technology. But there's no reason to suspect that it's not possible. Which makes any human decision, at least theoretically, predictable.

In short, no supernatural forces are required - just that:
(a) human components obey the laws of nature; and
(b) laws of nature follow predictable cause->effect chains.

I tend to lean towards the 'illusion of free will' camp, but:
(a) for all practical intents and purposes it doesn't matter; and
(b) I'm happy to be proven wrong if someone can prove what Free Will is and why it doesn't follow the laws of causality[1].

[1] I've seen a theory that Free Will results from quantum structures that are not bound by causality. I'm not actually sure this is an improvement, since it's unclear on what basis a decision would be made. Are these structures just a random number generator, and if so, how is randomness any better than predestination? AFAIK, there is no evidence to support this theory, anyway.

[machine]

Originally Posted by judge45

Saying we have no free will makes this reality completely pointless. It means we are just puppets of something else and unless we are puppets of our own purposeful consciousness, we might as well be dead.

Maybe we control it all, maybe we work with God or maybe we work with the energy of the universe to get what we wnat and to direct our lives on purpose.

To think there is no control by you oin any level makes the whole thing useless, why bother?

HTH

Jeff

Jeff, try creating a thought. It's not possible. When you try, what you will see is the thoughts move past your awareness purely on their own. What happens is you pick a thought and think, "I will pick this thought." You can't create a single one. So they are not under your control.

Now you may argue that you picked the thought you were going to focus on. I suggest that is also a thought and you did not create that one either. If you take the time out to watch this process for a little while you may be surprised at what you discover.

Saying that it is pointless just comes from the perspective you are at. Is it possible there is another perspective in which it doesn't look pointless? Your statement claims you have the best persepective to judge the value of reality.

machine