Making the Impossible Decision

[LostMyMap]

Posting here since it mentions "decision making".

I am at a point where I am facing what seems to be an impossible, terrible decision. Been there for months, and can't move. It's like I'm in a dungeon, tied up, and the evil torturer is telling me I can go free, but it will cost me an eye. So I have to choose to get my right eye or my left eye poked out. Well I really want them both and can't decide. So the torturer says either I decide, or he may decide for me, or I just sit there till I die of starvation.

That's my mental analogy. The reality is that after several years of trying, my wife could not get pregnant. She hit the wall and gave up, and now does not want to pursue adoption. I very strongly want to have kid(s). She has made it very plain that she isn't budging, and I can either accept that and be with her, or leave her to have a family with someone else. Well I really want them both, my wife, and children. Pisses me off that I even have to pit one against the other. Either way would mean pain and loss for me.

I don't have the stomach to make this decision. I have been trying to find some in-between option that could work, but so far none seem realistic.

The marriage counselor keeps saying it isn't black and white, there is always another choice. But she doesn't know what that would be either.

I'm mostly getting tired of being stuck, but still can't decide and move on. It's tearing me apart.

Can anyone give me some insight or advice on making such a decision? I'm not asking you to decide for me. But the process of doing it. I've tried rationally weighing the cost and benefit of going either way. But that doesn't work. In other cases, I would go with my intuition, but now my intuition is dead silent. What's left?

TIA

[ssandra]

Can you be with your wife, and not blame her for not having children?

If so, personally, I'd stay with her if you love her, and look for other ways to have children in your life. (but of course, I cannot make this decision for you, bla bla bla).

For example: being a half way house for children who need a place to stay for a couple of weeks.

Or: being a big brother for 1 or a few children who need it.

Or: Working with children in your job (maybe changing careers)

Or: find out why you so badly want children. What is behind that need, and is there another way you could fulfill that need?


If you don't feel you could forgive your wife for not giving you children, leave her now. Otherwise you'll only make her more sad.

I am sure she and you have thought about everything... but what would she say to a child that is yours and someone else? So to have someone else carry your baby? (could be a good friend, mother, or sister or aunt or niece, so it stays in the family?))


And of course... I feel for you. This is not a situation I would ever want to be in. I understand how difficult this decision must be!

What I would also suggest is to go on a holiday, just the 2 of you together, and not talk about out, and completely forget about it for a while. Maybe a solution will pop up?

[LostMyMap]

ssandra, thanks.

Let me be clear, I'm not angry at her for not getting pregnant. We did everything possible and then some. But deciding not to adopt is a choice.

She says she doesn't want to be responsible for a child in any way, which rules out being a foster parent.

I went through the whole why thing, and came back around to just knowing it's what I want, and being a volunteer, while certainly a good thing, wouldn't cut it for me.

But then I want her too. If I didn't love her so much, it would be an easy decision. Arrgh!

I'm just looking for a new approach. I know it's up to me. It's the way to that decision I can't see.

[ssandra]

Do you know why she doesn't want to be responsible for a child? I mean... if she would have gotten pregnant she would have been responsible as well..?


Either way... I know you are not angry at her, but you could still blame her... What I meant was, only stay with her, if you are absolutely sure that you will never blame her!

[slumberland]

Dear LostMyMap,

I am so sorry. I sent you a PM, if it did not go through please let me know.

Slumberland

[sonde]

Sorry to hear of your situation.

In other cases, I would go with my intuition, but now my intuition is dead silent. What's left?

As seen here, there is only intuition or belief. Go with what your intuition is telling you - silence. Make no decision, rest in silence (in-tuition). A decision is a conclusion based on belief - a very limited field.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Do you know why she doesn't want to be responsible for a child? I mean... if she would have gotten pregnant she would have been responsible as well..?


Either way... I know you are not angry at her, but you could still blame her... What I meant was, only stay with her, if you are absolutely sure that you will never blame her!

She has a list of things that she cites, energy level (chronic fatigue), financial situation, age etc. All valid concerns. (all can be managed if you are willing) They were all there the whole time we were trying, and she always worried about them, but didn't let them stop her. Then one day, everything changed.

I think it has to do with being burned out from fertility treatments. They are not fun. If she said, "I need time off to heal from this", that would be different. But it was, I'm done, period.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by sonde

As seen here, there is only intuition or belief. Go with what your intuition is telling you - silence. Make no decision, rest in silence (in-tuition). A decision is a conclusion based on belief - a very limited field.

Not sure I follow?

I keep thinking of the Rush song "... if you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice..."

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

She has a list of things that she cites, energy level (chronic fatigue), financial situation, age etc. All valid concerns. (all can be managed if you are willing) They were all there the whole time we were trying, and she always worried about them, but didn't let them stop her. Then one day, everything changed.

I think it has to do with being burned out from fertility treatments. They are not fun. If she said, "I need time off to heal from this", that would be different. But it was, I'm done, period.

Maybe you could talk to her about not talking nor deciding anything right now? Just being together and healing from what must feel like grief?

And revisit the subject again in a year. Maybe you or her will feel different by then? At least you will have some time together to heal...

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Maybe you could talk to her about not talking nor deciding anything right now? Just being together and healing from what must feel like grief?

And revisit the subject again in a year. Maybe you or her will feel different by then? At least you will have some time together to heal...

Yeah the MC talks a lot about healing and working on the marriage. My wife made it clear, the decision is made, no negotiating.

It took me awhile to really get that she already made the decision that I can't. What I mean is, her decision regarding children takes precedence over us: even if the marriage ended, she wouldn't change her mind. Of course I don't know if that would really hold up if I really left.

BTW, been through divorce once, not something to take lightly.

[aelle]

First, many hugs and good vibes for your difficult situation. <3

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Yeah the MC talks a lot about healing and working on the marriage. My wife made it clear, the decision is made, no negotiating.

This, IMHO, is much more of a problem to your couple than the child problem. Are ultimatums typical of your wife? Would she consider softening her stance if you softened yours?

I agree with Ssandra, the key is to look for alternative solutions - they existm even for a question that seems so binary.

First, what are the roots of your desire to have children? What are the roots of her desire to stay child free? Is it fear? Altruism? An outlet for creative energy? A desire to be responsible for someone? An desire to educate? To leave your trace on earth after you're gone? A biological urge? etc.

Then for each of these roots, there are plenty of other outlets to consider. They may not be for you, ultimately, but it's worth considering them honestly.

Ssandra gave you ideas to have children in your life. If your desire is to educate, you could also have animals in your life, or students of any age.
If your desire is to be responsible of someone who needs it, you could work with people with disabilities or mental issues, or the elderly.
Similarly, let your wife consider what level of involvement in a child's life (or other dependent) she would be comfortable with, and you may be able to build something on which you agree.

I understand it may be difficult for the 2 of you to open to these possibiliies,especially if you've been stuck on the ultimatum for a while. Good luck.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by aelle

First, many hugs and good vibes for your difficult situation. <3

Thank you very much!

Originally Posted by aelle

This, IMHO, is much more of a problem to your couple than the child problem. Are ultimatums typical of your wife? Would she consider softening her stance if you softened yours?

Actually, she is not like that normally. One of the things I have struggled to understand.

Originally Posted by aelle

I agree with Ssandra, the key is to look for alternative solutions - they existm even for a question that seems so binary.

First, what are the roots of your desire to have children? What are the roots of her desire to stay child free? Is it fear? Altruism? An outlet for creative energy? A desire to be responsible for someone? An desire to educate? To leave your trace on earth after you're gone? A biological urge? etc.

This one is really hard for me. I always feel like if I was a woman, no one would dare ask me why I want children or what are the roots of that. I don't have clarity on many things, but on that I do. I feel like it's a life mission to do this. It's something that is bigger than me. And it is raising my own, not spending part time with someone else's.

Her reasons are definitely based in fear. Many of her big decisions are fear based. Fear of what might happen, coupled with a 'gremlin' as you guys call it that is always telling her what she can't do. Believe me I've gone rounds with that gremlin, but in the end I can't make it go away. Only she could.

It's just where we are at. She isn't budging, and neither am I. One the one hand, I am continuing the work with the MC, (I was the one that pushed to go) and the marriage work. But at the same time, I am just learning to accept that this scenario may not change, and I'll still have to decide what to do. So I have to figure out how to decide.

Meanwhile, it gets more twisted. The signs coming in around adoption are amazing.
A few months ago, the woman who cuts my hair, out of the blue, gives me a phone number of a client of hers who adopted, saying this person will talk to us and help us out. My accountant sends me a referral to an adoption attorney, in case we ever need it. Health insurance broker says, unsolicited "You ever consider adoption? I have lots of clients who have adopted, and man, it seems like they love their children even more. You guys would make great parents!." New neighbors moved in next door, guess what, their son is adopted. The wife told me their story, said how great it is, and how they would talk to us when we are ready.
It's like God is putting all these signs in front of me, saying, "I want you to do this" and either my wife isn't hearing the message, or is getting a different one. Boggles my mind.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

This one is really hard for me. I always feel like if I was a woman, no one would dare ask me why I want children or what are the roots of that. I don't have clarity on many things, but on that I do. I feel like it's a life mission to do this. It's something that is bigger than me. And it is raising my own, not spending part time with someone else's.

If it makes you feel better, I am a woman and I do question my desire for children. Maybe the "normal world" accept that it's the norm for women to want to get pregnant no questions asked, but I am involved in a vegan environmentalist community that has many child free members, sometimes aggressively so. It's definitely not a decision that's free from scrutiny.

[Angela]

I HIGHLY recommend consulting an NLP master practitioner -- they will help you be present to more authentic choice (rather than this rock and a hard place situation), so that you can feel like you are free and doing what's right for yourself and for everyone else involved.

Really, I've seen people get breakthrough results in situations that are very similar to yours with the help of an NLP practitioner, FAST.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by aelle

If it makes you feel better, I am a woman and I do question my desire for children. Maybe the "normal world" accept that it's the norm for women to want to get pregnant no questions asked, but I am involved in a vegan environmentalist community that has many child free members, sometimes aggressively so. It's definitely not a decision that's free from scrutiny.

Me too. I didn't want children for a long time, and although now I do, I do and did question a LOT on the why.

Just hormones were not enough for me to make he decision. For me it is about guiding a new person into life, showing her all the beauty there is and helping her through the rough patches...

We are not pregnant yet, and we did talk about the scenario if we wouldn't be able to have kids. For me it is very clear that even without kids I'd stay with my husband. I love him now and have a great life now, so that wouldn't change.
But, that's me. I'm offering this as a point of view, different from your own. In no way am I suggesting that you should or should not do or feel the same!

You might want to get your wife to see a therapist on her own, to work through her depression...

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by aelle

If it makes you feel better, I am a woman and I do question my desire for children. Maybe the "normal world" accept that it's the norm for women to want to get pregnant no questions asked, but I am involved in a vegan environmentalist community that has many child free members, sometimes aggressively so. It's definitely not a decision that's free from scrutiny.

I guess it's more like when a woman does hear her clock ticking and aggressively pursues having a baby, everyone just seems to accept it. I know I'm making a broad statement there, it's just what I have seen.


All I can say is, if you ever think you might want to have a child, don't wait too long. Past 30 years old, it starts getting harder. Past 35, a lot harder.

Are you in Korea now? I spent a couple weeks in Seoul fifteen years ago.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Angela

I HIGHLY recommend consulting an NLP master practitioner -- they will help you be present to more authentic choice (rather than this rock and a hard place situation), so that you can feel like you are free and doing what's right for yourself and for everyone else involved.

Really, I've seen people get breakthrough results in situations that are very similar to yours with the help of an NLP practitioner, FAST.

Hi Angela,
Um, what is an NLP master practitioner? For that matter, what is NLP? New ground for me. Got some links to basic explanations?

You've seen people with similar situations to me? Like to hear their stories.

Thanks

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by ssandra

You might want to get your wife to see a therapist on her own, to work through her depression...

She's got a therapist. I go to one, we go to someone else for MC, we are in a marriage course.

And very astute to pick up on the depression aspect. I know she has it, but I haven't understood the underlying reasons, she isn't talking.

[tlaskcor]

This is what I would do, and no, you're not me, but you're information gathering:

I would feel I could trust my instincts, which would be to not move in either direction. I guess you could freeze from fear, or something like that, but I always feel it's my higher conciousness trying to telling me something when I freeze. Usually something I can't see in the midst of my emotions, and so it's best to sit back and see what it is.

Over time, one desire will become stronger than the other. At least, it works that way for me. As I step back from thinking, 'I have to make a decision this minute!' I free myself from the life-and-death emotions. My true desire can then formulate, or show itself. After a span of time, I usually itch more to go one way or the other. You may begin to feel that children are something you don't want to have never experienced, and finding a partner more in tune with parenting vibes may seem best.

Or, you may start to feel that life without your wife at your side till the end of your days is best, and children don't seem as important.

Really, I think you're mad at your wife and feel she has the power in the situation. She only has the power to make her decisions. If she decides, No kids, and sticks with it, you have an incomfortable choice, but others have made such choices before you, AND THEY USUALLY TURN OUT FINE. No permanent loss. Just gain.

Ok, that's my experience. All the hard decisions turned out ok in the long run. In fact, glad I choose them, even though they were very scary at the time.

I feel for you, I really do.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

Hi Angela,
Um, what is an NLP master practitioner? For that matter, what is NLP? New ground for me. Got some links to basic explanations?

You've seen people with similar situations to me? Like to hear their stories.

Thanks

You can read about it at my site, www.FeelGoodOnPurpose.com, or google it -- it's a very effective way to get excellent results very quickly.

[MsScoundress]

have you both give IVT a try? It worked for my friends, 2 couples, now they're blessed with kids.

anyhoo, it's a tough decision, being stuck for a long time only make you drained and you'd end up hurting yourself and your wife. it's takking so much of you energy that you wont be able to focus on ither aspects of life....if you both love each other, find ways thing work things out. either one will have to give in. sit down and talk, and do not procrastinate. if you still find that you both have reach the end of the road, then it's high time that you step out of your comfort zone! it will be painful for a while, but remember, time heals!

ah well, things are always easier said than done. good luck there, sending you tons and tons of positive vibes! cheers!

[danas]

This is not an easy decision to make. But if I were in your shoes it's clear what I would chose. I once read in Conversations With God something like: *first decide where you're going and then who is going with you. Not the other way around.
And I agree with this. I think the desire to have children is not a desire that you should ask yourself why you feel this need. If you have this desire, then that's what it is, no need to question it.
As much as you love your wife it sounds like you are on different paths. You want to be a parent and be a family man, And she doesn't. You can't force her to be a mother, and she shouldn't force you not to be a father.
I like you, have *a clear desire to have children, and I wouldn't *stay with someone who wouldn't want that. That's clear to me. As much as I loved them. Because down the road I would resent them for standing in the way of my hearts desire. I would say goodbye with love and forgiveness and find someone who wishes to go down the same path I choose.

[Mondrian]

I too wonder whether there is another way to approach this question.

If you and your wife can together see that neither the rock nor the hard place actually resolve the problem is it then possible to think of a different way?

If you see that the rock does not solve the problem does your wife then see that the hard place doesn't either?

You want kids. But that rock is not the solution to the problem. You're wife doesn't want kids that arn't biologically hers but that hard place is not the solution to the problem.

Try writing down the various issues and positions so you can get a better look at them, if you havn't already.

Third part help o deifferent kind as Angela suggests is another way to move forward with the question.

Best wishes.

[Tanja]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

That's my mental analogy. The reality is that after several years of trying, my wife could not get pregnant. She hit the wall and gave up, and now does not want to pursue adoption. I very strongly want to have kid(s). She has made it very plain that she isn't budging,

You mentioned you've been seeing a marriage counsel for months, but how long ago was your last ''attempt' to have a baby?
If you tried for several years, and it's been ''only'' several months that she's changed her mind, Is it possible that she maybe needs more time to process all that?
Maybe you don't need to make a decision now, would you be able to ''wait'' for a year,for example, without mentioning children to her, but continue to see a marriage counselor and work on your relationships/her fears?

I'm not saying her decision is not final, but maybe in this way she's trying to protect herself from more pain etc.

A friend of mine has been trying to have a baby for years now, so I feel for you.

Hope everything works out!

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by danas

*first decide where you're going and then who is going with you. Not the other way around.

first decide where you're going and then who is going with you. Not the other way around.

Wow. That's one to think about.

In the beginning, I guess I did that. She knew what I wanted, and that I couldn't have married her if she didn't agree. But now we are down the road five years and she doesn't want to go.

But then I come back around to, what about the marriage? What about the vows I took, the commitment I made? See I keep going in circles, that's why I need a change in the process.

Originally Posted by danas

And I agree with this. I think the desire to have children is not a desire that you should ask yourself why you feel this need. If you have this desire, then that's what it is, no need to question it.

Thank You. Thank You.

[LostMyMap]

Thanks for all the input so far. More is always welcome!

I think the time for negotiation has passed. She isn't budging. She even told the MC she doesn't want to even talk about it anymore. It's been well over a year since the last attempt. Over nine months since she dropped the bomb on me.

It's just time for me to decide what I want and start in that direction, whatever that is.

Last night I did some brainstorming, I wrote out nine or ten possible ways to go, some of them, pretty out there. Then I went back and qualified them. They all had some pretty big down sides. Some aren't realistic. The one that I've been thinking most likely actually had the most down sides. That was kind of surprising.
In the end, they are all a variation of choose wife over family, or choose the family over wife.

[Angela]

I'd like to invite you to be grateful to your wife for so boldly stating what's so for her. Some people have to deal with ambivalence in their partners, and that can be truly hellish -- or rather, limbo-ish. It keeps you hanging on, hoping the person will choose the way you want them to choose.

But she has generously made her choice and communicated it to you! That gives you the space of freedom to now make your own choice about your own next right action. She doesn't choose to partner with you in your heart's desire, and that doesn't mean that the two of you can't partner in other ways -- that you can't have her in your life in an important way. In other words, choosing to find a partner to have children with doesn't necessarily entail "losing" your wife, although it may very well mean letting go of the wifeness.

From her point of view, I don't think you're doing her any favors by keeping her shackled in a marriage to a man whose values are so vastly different from her own. It would be a very generous thing for you to do, I think, to consider setting her free so that SHE can find a more suitable partner, one who wants to have a child-free life with her.

You can double-date.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'd like to invite you to be grateful to your wife for so boldly stating what's so for her. Some people have to deal with ambivalence in their partners, and that can be truly hellish -- or rather, limbo-ish. It keeps you hanging on, hoping the person will choose the way you want them to choose.

But she has generously made her choice and communicated it to you! That gives you the space of freedom to now make your own choice about your own next right action. She doesn't choose to partner with you in your heart's desire, and that doesn't mean that the two of you can't partner in other ways -- that you can't have her in your life in an important way. In other words, choosing to find a partner to have children with doesn't necessarily entail "losing" your wife, although it may very well mean letting go of the wifeness.

From her point of view, I don't think you're doing her any favors by keeping her shackled in a marriage to a man whose values are so vastly different from her own. It would be a very generous thing for you to do, I think, to consider setting her free so that SHE can find a more suitable partner, one who wants to have a child-free life with her.

You can double-date.

Angela, your perspective is incredible. You are right, I hate ambivalence too. And she isn't shackling me, she has said so, although she really does love me and wants to be married.

Originally Posted by Angela

She doesn't choose to partner with you in your heart's desire, and that doesn't mean that the two of you can't partner in other ways -- that you can't have her in your life in an important way. In other words, choosing to find a partner to have children with doesn't necessarily entail "losing" your wife, although it may very well mean letting go of the wifeness.

I'm extremely curious as to what you mean by this? How would this be arranged? Very intriguing, but not sure I get it yet.

BTW, I looked at your web site. I have a feeling you and I will talk on the phone or in Santa Monica one day.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by LostMyMap

I'm extremely curious as to what you mean by this? How would this be arranged? Very intriguing, but not sure I get it yet.

Gosh, you have infinite choice in the matter -- limited only by what works for the two of you.

If I were you, I'd have a brainstorming session with her: "how can we both generate our hearts' desires, AND generate ourselves as an important part of each other's lives?" First step might be for her to distinguish her heart's desire and communicate it to you. You have talked about what she DOESN'T want here in this thread; do you know what she DOES want?

BTW, I looked at your web site. I have a feeling you and I will talk on the phone or in Santa Monica one day.

Thank you, I look forward to that! Actually, I have moved to Orange County -- closer to you! Thanks for reminding me to switch that.

[LostMyMap]

Originally Posted by Angela

Gosh, you have infinite choice in the matter -- limited only by what works for the two of you.

If I were you, I'd have a brainstorming session with her: "how can we both generate our hearts' desires, AND generate ourselves as an important part of each other's lives?" First step might be for her to distinguish her heart's desire and communicate it to you. You have talked about what she DOESN'T want here in this thread; do you know what she DOES want?



Thank you, I look forward to that! Actually, I have moved to Orange County -- closer to you! Thanks for reminding me to switch that.

Oh, I thought maybe you had something specific in mind when you wrote that.

Communication is a big issue right now. I have asked the question, how can we have a life in a way that we both get what we want? No answer. Or "I don't know". I've recently started asking about what she does want, beyond just being married to me. No answer. Part of that is she doesn't really know right now. And she would have to be open to brainstorming, which isn't currently the case. Especially since some possible solutions are really "outside the box". I'm hoping that MC will help open lines of communication. But I think I need to be prepared to decide on my own if necessary. And that's where I'm stuck.