On Being a Man

[Iceman]

Lately I've been looking at myself and wondering 'What kind of a man am I'.

Sometimes I feel like a lot of the traits and qualities that I hold, are more juvenile than mature... I sometimes think many of my reactions, thoughts and the way I view things, are based off a childish mindset and not an adults. Just because I've grown up in age, doesn't mean I've become a 'man'... That's not to say we shouldn't all have an inner-child and a youthful side to reach out to every now and then...

But what's a man supposed to be like? What do they look like? How do they act? Do they stand out in a group? Is there a right of passage that shifts the way our minds work? Is there a level of learning or understanding that changes how we view the world?

What are the qualities we look for in ourselves, or for some of you - what kinds of traits and qualities do you look for in a man? How did you achieve or notice these?

This question probably seems geared towards the males on the board, but truthfully the women's input on this is just as important. After all, as males, we could think we hold all the traits and qualities of a man, but when you look at us all you see is a boy pretending to be a man.

[tamzdance]

Here's a good read for all the boy-men out there: Men to Boys: The Making of Modern Maturity by Gary Cross.

[James81]

I think it's within our power, as people, to create whatever we want...that goes for both men and women.

Where we differ, I think, is something that I've noticed by having kids....one boy, one girl...and noticing the seemingly inherent differences between them. My experience as a father has given me a firsthand look at how girls and boys (and thus men and women) seemingly process and interpret the world. Or rather, my experience as a father, has shown me one example of things that I've noticed as differences between men and women as a general factor.

And the primary difference, I think, seems to be surrounding the ideas of nurturing vs. naturing. My daughter has been obsessed with baby dolls since she could sit up. I watch her, and I see her nature as being very motherly...even as a toddler...where she sets up her baby dolls, lays them down, and takes care of them. How she'll climb up on my lap just for a hug, to cuddle, etc.

My son, on the other hand, doesn't take much to the touchy feely type of stuff. Gotta kind of coax a hug out of him. But he IS curious about the world around him. He asks fifty million questions about how and why things work the way they do.

So, in that way, I think being a man...at it's core...is how we view, interpret, and process the nature of the world that surrounds us. A semi-famous poster in PUA circles, was a user named "Pook." And in his writings he talked about "world building" and how, ,as a man, we are focused internally on how we build our worlds and the ways in which we attract the people that surround us into that world.

So, as a product of creation, one possibility for manliness lies in our willingness to perceive and shape the realities that surround us into the things we wish to generate.

[secrets0stolen]

Originally Posted by James81

My son, on the other hand, doesn't take much to the touchy feely type of stuff. Gotta kind of coax a hug out of him. But he IS curious about the world around him. He asks fifty million questions about how and why things work the way they do.

lol, this was exactly how I was--except female

[Ceoarob]

Iceman, there are two books that I would recommend HIGHLY. One, David Deida's "Way of the Superior Man" and Robert Bly's "Iron John"

To answer your question,

In my own opinion, I think that being a man means taking action even when it might be painful to do so. That is mainly caused by living out your purpose in life. Whenever you're doing what you KNOW you were sent here to do on earth, then you are living according to your purpose.

We all have different purposes, so we have to find our absolute deepest purpose and completely shape our life around that.

On a more Man vs. Women Perspective, In Real Social Dynamics' "The Blueprint", Owen Cook breaks what being a man is all about: Simply put, a man draws his state from within where as women draw state from the environment.

What does that mean?

Being a man means that you are able to make your own decisions, come to your own conclusions, act through your own intentions, and just do what you want to do and be who you want to be without fear.

This is an ideal that I'm working towards in my life everyday. I haven't fully reached it, but I'm getting there everyday.

For me, as long as I'm taking action, I'm making progress.

It doesn't matter which action is taken, just that action IS taken.

That's what being a man is all about for me.

-Cheers.

[180]

Hey Iceman, sup?

lol.

I too have struggled with this question for a long time. One important realization is that society has an "image" of what a "real" man is. Maturity, Masculinity, Strength, are all attributes a man has. But the there are some things that are almost un-obtainable.

I've never in my life, met a "real" man. Most men, albeit, probably all.... are still immature, sex crazed, hyena like boys.

Women have this idea a man is like James Bond, cool, calm, collected. Yet at the same time they want a man that's responsible but wild, funny but serious... Handsome and cute.... Strong but sensitive (A pandora's box of qualities)

I think you can get the picture. A "real" man is supposed to have it all and that's quite an impossible feat given how humans are designed. Look at all great leaders, men of power, etc... they all had serious downsides and issues.

Alexanader the great? Was narcasstic, had maternal issues, etc.
Ghengis Kahn, for Christs sake the guy killed his brother, I don't need to get any deeper.
Bill Clinton - There "is" no affair

Need I go on? Is there a role model you can think of that is a real man? Do I need to get into Ghandi who cheated on his wife?


Can you think of 1 person that fits the perfect image of a man? (Matin Luther King Jr. Is the closest I can think of)
No, and we've fallen trap to what a "real man" should be.

There are, however, some qualities that are obtainable by reason of a real man. that's handling things maturely and in ways that are emotionally suitable.

I find I'm most attractive when I imagine that I'm a good father. I act and behave as a responsible father should and I find that women find that extremely attractive. It's my goal in life.

I've had emotionally psychotic women call me immature. I was actually completely insulted especially coming from what source. Society has told her what a man SHOULD be... but such a man doesn't exist so she continues to search for a demi-god of a man. Jumping from guy to guy and I bet my ass she settles down with bob who works at 7-11.

lol sorry I gotta jet to work.

[Desert]

Personally, I don't even think of it anymore in terms of "man", i.e., gender. After years of life experience and recognizing that most definitions are mostly social handles and myth - like "180" also refers to - to me the premise is how can I be the best as a human being. With that view then I don't have to overly concern myself about the gender aspect.

[Elrond]

The great thing about stereotypes and archetypes is that it often points to common traits. This is useful because you can use these stereotypes to more easily find out who you really are. For example if most young children like to play with legos, you can let your children try them and see if they like them. By first going after what is a most common interest, you save time. Instead of trying to introduce them to the violin, reading newspapers or watching action movies, you first try the things that are most likely to be a hit. When it comes to being a man/boy/guy/dude, you can try out many of the common traits. You can try out being a leader, learning about something technical/mechanical, playing sports, having sex with women, doing something competitive. If you first try out the things that are most common to your gender, you will most likely find things that you resonate with you faster than if you just assumed that you could possibly like and be inclined to do anything.

You could also read about stuff that focuses on manhood or something similar.

And you'll maybe eventually find something that resonates with you. And of course you should focus on what resonates with you, since you are hopefully the most important person in your life (possibly with some exceptions, depending on where you are in life).

[Iceman]

Wow some very interesting answers. Really gets me thinking. Thanks folks.

I think it's interesting how we no longer have any 'rites of passage' type phases in our life.

We're no longer sent out into the wilderness alone, or told to stand on a platform for 10 days with no food or water in order to become an adult part of the tribe or community.

At some point things just begin to change for us. There's no clear, starting point like there was/is with cultures that have rites of passage. There's also no clear role models, like 180 and some of you have mentioned... Back in the days of these rites of passage, as a boy, you knew what each man came out looking like. They were mostly the same. They were all taught the same lessons and principles growing up in order to pass their test.

Now, as children we see adults of all different shapes and sizes, and it's hard to figure which ones we should be learning from or modeling ourselves after.

We see a trait that we think seems adult-like or man-like, but we have no way of knowing, because we then see a dozen people who don't have this trait.

For me - leadership, decisiveness and responsibility come first into my mind as traits of an adult.

[Mounds]

Here's my list of manly traits that I strive for:

-willingness to learn
-compassionate
-descisive. Willing to stand behind his decision and deal with the consequences if he is wrong.
-provider (emotionally and "food on the table") (guys that have a kid and vanish until the kid is eighteen are not providers)
-have some manners
-have a clue about how to dress
-be willing to challenge the norm
-be willing to stand up for what you believe is right, even if it means going against everyone else

-Tim

[Illuminatus]

This might help with relating to others as a man: Circuit II: Absolute Social Basics for a Man

Rites of passage for me have been:
-Losing virginity
-Picking up first HOT girl where I did everything by myself, with no help from social circle etc. (total cold approach leading to sex)
-First time making a woman orgasm
-First successful physical defence of myself (fight)
-Travelling and sorting out all the plans etc. myself
-Passing my driving test

These work based on two principles:

1) Brain-change via the experience itself
2) Via the experience, evidence presented to yourself that you ARE WORTHY OF YOUR OWN SELF-RESPECT.

[Iceman]

I like this.

I see a big theme here of being independent. Making choices, going through things and having experiences yourself. Not based off someone else, but things you do yourself.

Also being independent in the way you stand by your choices. You make a call, be prepared, ready and willing to live with it fully.

Drawing your own power from within. Doing something and learning, not because the experience says so, but because you actually figure it out inside you.

Getting to a point where you trust in yourself completely seems to be a foundation for everything.

Good stuff.

[Marund]

I think it all boils down to being a descent person.

Why do some guys get so wrapped up in manhood ? I think you should be 'man' enough to be yourself.. I mean a little boldness and confidence are attractive in anybody really.

Take care of yourself... Dont smell... ETC

[Marund]

Originally Posted by Iceman

I like this.

I see a big theme here of being independent. Making choices, going through things and having experiences yourself. Not based off someone else, but things you do yourself.

Also being independent in the way you stand by your choices. You make a call, be prepared, ready and willing to live with it fully.

Drawing your own power from within. Doing something and learning, not because the experience says so, but because you actually figure it out inside you.

Getting to a point where you trust in yourself completely seems to be a foundation for everything.

Good stuff.

Dont underestimate having an open-mind though. And being able to learn from peers.

Nobody knows everything and can do everything for themselves.

[luckyJTF7s]

is this apocryphal {sic, i suck at speling}, but is there a difference male/female?

i've always been a very "guy" girl, into stocks, poker, and i *really* hate shopping alot...

but honestly,

aren't we all more alike than not?

as to your question, Iceman, what I look for in a guy is pretty much the same I look for in a chick: someone playful, fun, happy, together, secure in who they are, with some idea of where they are going and what they want, intelligent, individualistic, maverick, self-assured, adventurous, and gah sounds a bit too much like a plentyofish profile. ethical. kind. compassionate. transparent. a leader. extroverted but introverted. diplomatic but doesn't take any crap. creative, outside the box. able to hold divergent opinions simultaneously. a bit whacky. mature. also child-like (rather than childish). optimistic, positive. wide variety of interests. open, vulnerable. decisive. hard-working. totally relaxed. able to listen. non-defensive. passionate. easygoing. curious. flexible. balls the **** out.

I really just like other "me"s. narcissistic that way i guess and very very modest

[luckyJTF7s]

personally, I think the question is what you like in a chick.

and what this one has got you considering about any flaws/faults you have, that you could address. not the ones *she* thinks you have, but the ones *you* do. so get on up an' address 'em already. onward and up, doggie

[Iceman]

Originally Posted by luckyJTF7s

personally, I think the question is what you like in a chick.

and what this one has got you considering about any flaws/faults you have, that you could address. not the ones *she* thinks you have, but the ones *you* do. so get on up an' address 'em already. onward and up, doggie

Haha, yes well the situation I'm in clearly got me thinking about myself in this respect. Not that I'm trying to blame myself or a trait I may or may not have, but I'm very introspective right now. So it seemed like a good time to take a look at my own maturity and see where I am.

These are all interesting answers, folks. Good stuff.

[Illuminatus]

Originally Posted by luckyJTF7s

is this apocryphal {sic, i suck at speling}, but is there a difference male/female?

i've always been a very "guy" girl, into stocks, poker, and i *really* hate shopping alot...

but honestly,

aren't we all more alike than not?

We are, but there ARE differences that cannot be ignored, almost entirely stemming from who has the childbearing responsibilities. That is why there HAS to be separate training for men - and this sort of training has only just had a re-emergence in the last decade or so, following the women's sexual revolution.

This training has to provide a role for men, and help them keep their focus on positive areas. Otherwise, a man starts putting his focus on unhelpful areas such as what women are doing for example, and he'll end up obsessing in unhealthy ways like this: I wonder what it's like as a woman?

[Iceman]

I happened to stumble upon an old Blog of Steve's about this very subject.

How to Be a Man

Interesting stuff there, and in this thread in general.

[marinik]

One word: integrity - in everything you do.

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by marinik

One word: integrity - in everything you do.

and I would have to add respect in there too

[James81]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

and I would have to add respect in there too

Integrity and respect sounds an awful lot like "good vs. evil".

[Angela]

Originally Posted by James81

Integrity and respect sounds an awful lot like "good vs. evil".

How so?

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by James81

Integrity and respect sounds an awful lot like "good vs. evil".

james !

[Angela]

Oh, I just saw that was a continuation of a conversation you two were having elsewhere. Never mind!

Integrity and respect are not necessarily judgements of good/bad/right/wrong -- they can also simply be descriptions of tools. But I can see what you're saying more, in the context of your conversation.

[James81]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

james !

a

[lifetimelearner]

Originally Posted by Angela

Oh, I just saw that was a continuation of a conversation you two were having elsewhere. Never mind!

Integrity and respect are not necessarily judgements of good/bad/right/wrong -- they can also simply be descriptions of tools. But I can see what you're saying more, in the context of your conversation.

but I still don't see the connection ?

[Iceman]

Integrity is important. A lot of times when things don't go my way, I try to at least tell myself I did something honestly and from the heart.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by lifetimelearner

but I still don't see the connection ?

Well, I won't speak for James, but I think that a value like "integrity" or "respect" can be held by someone as either an away-from motivator, or a towards-motivator, or somewhere along the continuum in between. And it's possible to hear or sense the difference when someone speaks about them, especially in the context of a prior conversation.

Away-from motivation IS not wrong or bad; it's just often born out of beliefs that what we're motivated away from is wrong or bad. For instance, if you are highly valuing respect, mostly in reaction to having felt very disrespected in the past and being determined not to feel that way, there can be lots of away-from motivation in there. Again, that's not wrong or bad, and it can often be really, really useful in getting the results you want.

And if you rely on all-away-from motivation, all the time, it'll tend to bounce you back like a bungee cord, back to what you're trying to get away from. It tends to work better, in my experience, when you use away-from motivating values to jet-blast yourself out of the gravitational orbit of what you don't want, and then to move when you're ready into a towards-motivating value -- something that totally moves, inspires, and lights you up! Focus on what you want, and look where you're going.

When you're judging your motivations (or the values associated with them) as good/bad/right/wrong, it tends to limit their effectiveness as tools.

See what I mean? (James, does that coincide at all with what you were thinking?)

[James81]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, I won't speak for James, but I think that a value like "integrity" or "respect" can be held by someone as either an away-from motivator, or a towards-motivator, or somewhere along the continuum in between. And it's possible to hear or sense the difference when someone speaks about them, especially in the context of a prior conversation.

Away-from motivation IS not wrong or bad; it's just often born out of beliefs that what we're motivated away from is wrong or bad. For instance, if you are highly valuing respect, mostly in reaction to having felt very disrespected in the past and being determined not to feel that way, there can be lots of away-from motivation in there. Again, that's not wrong or bad, and it can often be really, really useful in getting the results you want.

And if you rely on all-away-from motivation, all the time, it'll tend to bounce you back like a bungee cord, back to what you're trying to get away from. It tends to work better, in my experience, when you use away-from motivating values to jet-blast yourself out of the gravitational orbit of what you don't want, and then to move when you're ready into a towards-motivating value -- something that totally moves, inspires, and lights you up! Focus on what you want, and look where you're going.

When you're judging your motivations (or the values associated with them) as good/bad/right/wrong, it tends to limit their effectiveness as tools.

See what I mean? (James, does that coincide at all with what you were thinking?)

That's not what I was thinking, but it is a good point.

I was thinking more in terms of what this particular thread is about (being a man) and that those traits (integrity and respect) being attached to being a man, when they aren't inherently masculine traits.

Sounded a lot like a "should" to me. A man SHOULD be those traits, because that's what is expected of him.

And that all relates back to the "good vs. evil" thing in that, well, if a man does not embody those traits, does that make him less of a man? So, in a sense, it looks like "you are either a man or you're not...and these traits make you a man, but those traits don't make you a man."

So, it's kind of like black and white thinking to me. Which all feeds back into that "good vs. evil."

(Plus, if we're being completely open, hearing that a man should be those traits actually activated me a little bit, so that was another clue that it probably relates to "I am bad" somehow. )