I quit PD after 2 years! These are the things Ive learnt...

[Logicseeker]

This may very well be my last post on this forum. The reason I'm writing is mainly in order to mark the end of a "phase" of my life but also share with me, what I've learnt the last 2 years. Although I've questioned the importance of focused personal
development (we all seem to develop anyway, even involuntarily) and the LoA, I've always believed that we at least to some extent have controls over our own life.

I came upon PD 2 years ago, when searching for articles on procrastination. I eventually found StevePavlina.com and a new world seemed to open up right before my eyes. But, looking back I can see that this was not exactly the case and I think this is where one lesson could be learned. When you are exposed to a lot of fresh ideas simultaneously you get somewhat of a placebo effect. You literally feel "high". I know this, because I felt that too and others seem to agree with me but it is a mistake to embrace this feeling. Developing your abilities takes silly amounts of hard work and intuitively you should guard against these "Oh my God how simple it all is"-emotions. It's like eating chocalate. You get a top and then a dip, and if the circumstances are right (i.e. wrong) that dip might take you lower than where you started.

I think this concept is important to understand. If it hadn't been existant the positive psychology market would probably almost die out. People follow the same pattern over and over again. They invest in PD stuff, they "get high", and when the effect starts to decrease they search for more. This addiction is why so much material can be sold, despite the fact that a lot of it is just recycling old ideas. Even something so "revolutionary" as "The Secret" is borrowed from the Old Greeks and it is not true, as they say, that "it was lost" but has appeared again. The new thing is that it has appeared on the market as a product.

I love Steve's articles, I really do! But I've learnt to critize and to weight in the "placebo factor". In retroperspective I would have gotten a lot more out of these two years if I knew this from the beginning. And I would also have been able to watch out for these artificial "emotional highs". One thing I like about Pavlina is that he is not ONLY writing sensational types of articles but also some "low profile" stuff. Tony Robbins for example seems to be ALMOST ALL about creating short term joy, where the famous "firewalks" would be the climax.

Anyway, in my experience placebo from PD articles read extensively every day can very well last up to 6 months and you should be aware of this and that an emotional dip could occur. I know this myself and I share the experience with many friends.

Another thing an addiction takes from you (except emotional energy and perhaps money) is time! I think it is possible to draw a lot of conclusions from this forum. And one of them is that most of us here are spending too much time behind the screen instead of living life. People, and especially the real advocates of PD, such as Pavlina himself seems to be online for hours on end and also participating in discussions not leading to higher awareness. Discussions equivalent to playing video games or watching a porno. Some of it IS valuable but as one of our posters said in another thread, there is a lot of "empty discussion" going on here where people either is rythmically nodding theirs heads or "not agreeing to disagree" and thus just aimlessly arguing without getting anything in return.

These are some of the reason why I've decided to withdraw from actively taking part in the PD/Positive Psychology Movement. I know that there is a lot of questions left unanswered but I might address those later. For now, good luck and don't jump into things too quickly!

[owls8521]

I strongly disagree that personal development is a waste of time, but I understand your point. It's easy to get addicted to it just like you can get addicted to anything, but I don't think that means there's anything wrong with working on improving yourself. I personally believe it's one of the best ways to spend my time because I know it's going to have a lasting effect on my life.

Also, this doesn't have THAT much to do with the topic, but not all video games are a waste of time either. A great deal of them are incredibly challenging intellectually and instinctually, so by playing them it improves the way that you think and react to things. Anyway, I'm glad you came to this realization for yourself and good luck to you in your journey.

[Logicseeker]

I continue now with another problem I've encountered with PD. Most Personal Development gurus would advice you to take a hard look on every aspect of your life. Make up plans. Set goals. Meditate and picture yourself in different situations and so on. They, and in particular Steve Pavlina, are also talking about different paradigms. Different outlooks on life. And that you can shift those consciously. The advice is even to hold several paradigms at the same time and thus having several "lenses" available at the same time and using them in accordande to the problem you are faced with.

I agree that all of this sounds just fine, but there is a another side of the coin not mentioned. It is a phenomenon I, any many of my friends, have experienced which is disconnection to life. Explicit Personal Development is an "outside in approach" in that you look at your life, note what to fix and then do that. Your life becomes something you operate on. A thing needing improvement. This is all jolly good if you are lucky enough to be able to transform all of your developing ideas into action, but if you cannot all you do is laying the foundation for passivity.

You get something like "mental writer's block". You see your life, you want to change it but you want SO much and want to do the absolute best for yourself and while you're pondering what diet to take, what meditation to do, what books to read, you are constantly bombarded with new PD articles illuminating even more things in life you could change. And the clock keeps on ticking...

I'm sure a lot of you can identify with this and I think many of us are stuck in this state. This might be one reason why we have so many users being online here for hours on end. And I also think it is part of the negative addictive part of PD. We're always looking for something better and instead of actually learning that language, we postpone it by reading tons of articles on learning strategies.

I know that all of this is not universal but I think it is yet another thing to guard against and one that makes the "PD journeys" even more difficult and not at all so simple as many would suggest. I am fairly certain that some people not aware of this phenomenon have actually increased passivity in their lifes by reading PD material. I know that I have and I know that I have difficulties overcoming it. The "inside looking out" approach instead of outside looking in gives me time to do things in life instead of thinking about it.

[Rod Logan]

You make some great points here man.. People get sucked up into this.. need.. for more and more information. And never doing anything with it.

I can't say I haven't been guilty of it myself either.

One thing though, when I'm learning something new, I tend to read and read and one day it just clicks and I say to myself, "Alright buddy, enough reading and listening just get out and %$%# DO IT NOW!!!!!" I go out there guns blazing and TAKE ACTION.

So I think for many, PD is a stepping stone to greatness in REAL LIFE. The thing is to realize that PD is not LIFE it is just a stepping stone to that LIFE WE WANT.

[Rod Logan]

Note to self:

Make an eBook: "How Not to Get Addicted to eBooks"

[dor]

Originally Posted by Rod Logan

You make some great points here man.. People get sucked up into this.. need.. for more and more information. And never doing anything with it.

I can't say I haven't been guilty of it myself either.

.

I agree. I think you should immerse yourself in learning it for a limited period then only devote a small, set time to keeping polished - if you're always reading about this or that way to visualize and improve visualization then you'll always be thinking about fixing it rather then doing it - kind of like endlessly tinkering with a sportcar rather than drive it.

the only time you should go back into more research is if you're not getting results...

For example:: ok try 'this' method of visualization ...if it works great,
if not, then find out what you might be doing wrong or try a new approach....but always keep moving forward

[RT Wolf]

What you're saying reminds me of this early blog entry:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...-quantum-leap/

And this one:

http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...growth-at-all/

You don't have have to read them, obviously, but others might benefit from reading those.



Have a good life. It seems you learned something and had a new experience. Take care and I wish you all the best in life. Enjoy yourself!

[Cron]

I think this concept is important to understand. If it hadn't been existant the positive psychology market would probably almost die out. People follow the same pattern over and over again. They invest in PD stuff, they "get high", and when the effect starts to decrease they search for more. This addiction is why so much material can be sold, despite the fact that a lot of it is just recycling old ideas.

Bingo.

I've expressed the same thoughts here myself.

Stephen Covey, in his first book 7 habits wrote that what makes successful people successful is that they have the ability to do things when they do not feel like doing them.

An unwillingness to accept that among people is what drives the cycles you described.

Describing the same advice with new buzz terms gives the illusion that it is something new and in that illusion is the imagined possibility of being able to possibly get around having to do things when you don't feel like doing them.

Sooner or later, work ( doing something when you don't feel like doing it ) comes back into the picture and another iteration of the cycle begins.

[Logicseeker]

One thing I noticed quite early after turning to PD is that it has a way of fostering elitism. I think this could be because of where we are coming from. When we start to question things in life we are usually not in a very enlightened mental state. We may even be depressed.

When we then find PD it gives us something to hang onto and to identify with. Like a single sun ray that has gone through all the clouds. When we do this we, at least to some degree, "turn special" compared to other persons. We have found something new. We feel like conscious explorers.

This is not a gigantic problem if we later leave this ego pespective behind but the problem is that the positive psychology movement is based on this perspective and therefore the supposedly "developing" articles will just reinforce our feeling that we are unique and better than the rest. Actually, this is quite natural. People like Steve Pavlina speaks to both hardcore personal developers AND total beginners. And what are the beginners looking for? That's right - something that will make them feel special. Like the catchy "Personal development for Smart people" or Pavlina's article on "the brightest bear". I myself don't think you could or should compare yourself to others (which you is indirectly doing by talking about brightest bear). You could compare income or weigth but the bums in the gutter may very well be the "smart people". We can't look inside their heads.

So... to summarize, what is happening is that we get indoctrinated into an ego focused development where the bottom line is "don't settle for the median". It is encouraging but it would be so much better if we focused on ourselves and ONLY on ourselves instead (in regards to comparison).

The PD people are trying to manage their development using an "outside looking in" approach while others let time, personality, circumstances, friends and some isolated choices do the trick for them. We're all playing the same game. No need to call ourselves smart and believing that the rest of the population is standing still.

[Antiventurecapital]

Logicseeker,

You sold me.

PD does not work.



I'm going to have my cable reconnected after canceling it in 1983, and return to blowing my evenings on watching TV and eating big bags of Costco chips.

There is no hope for anyone since it didn't work for you.

I thought it had worked for me but it must be an illusion.

Seriously folks, don't assume that what works or doesn't work for you in PD, exercise, religion, etc applies to everyone.

It doesn't.

[Alvin]

Ever heard the expression, 'don't throw the baby out with the water?'

[Michael Chui]

I think there's a class of people on this forum who should be awarded the medal of "PD by anti-PD". We'll call it the Paradox Honor. They've transcended the simple elitism of being PD practictioners and have entered the advanced elitism of being anti-elitists.

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

Even something so "revolutionary" as "The Secret" is borrowed from the Old Greeks and it is not true, as they say, that "it was lost" but has appeared again.

People are generally not aware of a minor fact about that term. "Revolutionary" actually means "going back". (Think "revolving door".) Which makes just about every modern usage of the term highly amusing.

[jacmac1]

I understand your point Logic, and even agree with some of them.

I myself have devoted too many hours online and I myself am not happy with that.

Of course the catalyst was depression, a search for meaning, a need for a greater truth, -- I can go on and on.

Here's something I heard the other day,

"We've lost the ability to relate face to face so we allow electronic gadgets to take the place of the face we can't face".

Ahh, living a real life in the real world - for enlightenment, I'll take some pages printed off the computer or a book with me.

[Dietrie]

Funny, I would consider personal development for me to be, well, LIFE.
To me, every minute, every hour, every day and so on is another day that I can choose to make change in my life, for myself, for the better.

I think it's unfortunate you feel this way but I for one can't be dissuaded by other's negative experiences because for 1) I'm not trying to make others happy
2) I know that my negative experiences that I encounter I either need to take responsibility for my part played in bringing it about, or better yet, I need to take a proactive and positive approach to making the most of every moment from that moment forward.

3) I know that I have ultimate control over my own actions and reactions.
I have known this for many, many years... And now I am starting to understand the role that RESPONSIBILITY plays in my life.

So, I do the hard work... I take a hard look at myself, and am accountable for what I've done, and where I'm going. Instead of it having a negative effect on me, I've seen much the opposite of what you're describing.
I've felt a gradual shift over time of how my thinking process works. I think that the universe has been showing me slowly over time my own truths, and through some reading and research (which to me is not work, it is learning which is something I enjoy) things have really started to click in my head.

I know I am not riding some "high" right now, that's going to eventually lead to an emotional crash. What I am experiencing right now are the tremendous joys of conscious living, instead of riding through life on default. What I do know is that it is frikken HARD work sometimes. Doubts come up, people question you, things happen in life that don't seem to make sense.

But no matter what at the end of the day, I can look back and say, I am surviving and doing wonderfully, and then put myself forward thinking again, and put myself in the state of being that makes me the best possible person I could be at that moment. Like I said it can be a struggle... but I can always get myself back to that point, by myself.

The only money I have spent on anything to do with PD is the $6 I spent on watching "The Secret" online. Other than that, everything I have learned, I have learned through my life, and the readings I have come across, and things on tv, people spoken to, etc. Considering the small cost and the huge impact it has on my life, I consider the money and time investment MORE than worth it.

I hope for you one day you could have a shift in how you think about this.... it's not meant to be negative at all, it's only that way if you make it to be.

Sorry if this is redundant or nonsensical in parts... I'm new to sharing my thoughts on these things!

[ethereal]

It's a phase people go through. Most of these phases seem pointless after you go through them because you now know the lesson behind them. But if you never went through them you wouldn't have learnt it in the first place.

I agree with your points, though; for the jaded PDer, this might be the next stage in development and growth.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

And I also think it is part of the negative addictive part of PD. We're always looking for something better and instead of actually learning that language, we postpone it by reading tons of articles on learning strategies.

It seems to mee that the solution is quite simple.

Find a couple of PD ideas that seem useful to you, and apply them regularly.

Ta-daa. Problem solved.

[Acting Like Godot]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

So... to summarize, what is happening is that we get indoctrinated into an ego focused development where the bottom line is "don't settle for the median". It is encouraging but it would be so much better if we focused on ourselves and ONLY on ourselves instead (in regards to comparison).

But I only focus on myself.

I really don't compare myself to others.

I read lots of PD books, but I don't think they have had any tendency to make me compare myself to others.

In the context of PD, when I do think of others, I tend to think of people whom I admire or respect, for one particular reason or another. In other words, I look for inspiring role models.

I certainly don't look for "inferior" people to compare myself to, so as to flatter my own ego.

What KIND of pd books have you been reading, Logicseeker?

[Keith]

Personally, I get "OMG, it's all so much clearer now!" fairly frequently from PD writings. This, I think is the placebo effect to which Logicseeker refers.

Again and again I make the mistake of thinking that "now I ahve that info in my brain my life will be different". Nuh uh.

I think the real reason that PD hasn't become obsolete is that it takes more than the knowledge - it takes time and effort to rewrite lifelong habits, and most people (including me) wish it didn't (and act accordingly).

Steve has never been anything but upfront about this but I guess we see what we want to see.

I think what Logicseeker is talking about is that, especially if you're a procrastinator (like me!) there's a tendency to just horde PD knowledge and not actually integrate it into your life.

Personally, I followed the pattern Logicseeker said - a big spike when I discovered Steve's Blog followed by a dip (which I'm currently still in). I don't think that this points to a failure of PD though - it just indicates that it's not a magic bullet that solves everything effortlessly.

All the crap you've been shovelling into your brain over a lifetime is going to take time to dislodge and replace.

In the end, I think it basically comes back to what Steve said (paraphrasing): Don't give up on PD, but don't expect it to be easy either...

[EDIT] Yeah, that Quantum Leap post really is relevant.

[Logicseeker]

I should add that I don't have any problem with developing and not so much even with the Positive Psychology Movement (like StevePavlina.com) but I think that there are A LOT of things to consider before (and during) trying to rearrange all your thoughts and beliefs in accordance to material promoted by the market.

I don't think you should get mad at me, these are just some things I've noticed after 2 years of experience and from friends spending the same amount of time.

StevePavlina.com was great for me, it set a spark. That was the good thing. But because I (and it seems there are many more) did not know the things I know now I bought into things too quickly and instead of thinking I kept scanning the net for articles. Yes, this is my personal experience but empirism seems to be the way in the positive psychology movement anyway, so it might still be interesting.

And as I said earlier, I believe that people develop over time. They can't even stop it, it's inevitable. We think, time passes and we learn. This leads to development. The positive psychology movement's ideas have some merit but you should tread carefully.

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

The positive psychology movement's ideas have some merit but you should tread carefully.

This is true for every other ideology, practice, movement, notion, etc. out there. For instance, democracy. For instance, going to college. For instance, getting married. Everything has some merit; that's why anyone believes them at all. People aren't stupid. But everything also has some potential pitfalls.

Which is why I pointed out that anti-elitism is often elitism in and of itself. In your case, it certainly is.

[Logicseeker]

Michael Chui. I agree with you that there are pitfalls everywhere but they differ and I just wanted to point out my observations. You are free to discuss them, though I don't think that "you are an eliste!" is a valid argument against the hypothesis that the positive psychology movement has a way of fostering elitism.

[Lucas]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

Michael Chui. I agree with you that there are pitfalls everywhere but they differ and I just wanted to point out my observations. You are free to discuss them, though I don't think that "you are an eliste!" is a valid argument against the hypothesis that the positive psychology movement has a way of fostering elitism.

Every movement has a way of fostering elitism. People in groups of any type have those tendencies to say "I am different/better than the rest of the world because I listen to indie rock/study obscure Shakespeare/am into personal development/build motorcycles/whatever." Thats human nature really, and there will always be personal development gurus who are a scam, but the merit is still there. Looking at myself in June of last year, I have come a long way, and have a much further way to go. If you evolve into an elitist, then maybe something went wrong with you personally? I look at my friends who are suffering from the same problems I stumbled through who havent made conscious choices and I dont look down on them, I look forward to the day they decide to. Same with low energy people I meet in the world. Certainly I don't want them affecting me, but I certainly cant fault them for making the choices they made. It was their option to make those choices, and ones they can choose at any time to change it if they want to. I am sure that some people take the PD "high road", but theres plenty of people who don't.

[Angela]

Dietrie, I loved what you wrote here, and am aligned with it. Welcome, by the way!

Logicseeker: would you please tell me: what did you have in mind to create for yourself when you started this thread? You said it might very well be your last post, but you've posted a lot since, so I'm guessing you're still drawn to this forum as a way of speaking something into existence. Are you trying to see something for yourself more clearly, or to help others? The feeling I got from it was that you want to look good or feel superior (I may be wrong, of course; I'm just telling you my response.) Would you please answer me: what did you have in mind to create for yourself?

Love,
Angela

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

Michael Chui. I agree with you that there are pitfalls everywhere but they differ and I just wanted to point out my observations. You are free to discuss them, though I don't think that "you are an eliste!" is a valid argument against the hypothesis that the positive psychology movement has a way of fostering elitism.

To echo Lucas, every movement fosters elitism. Including movements against movements. I'm simply saying that it is hypocritical to speak against elitism when you are elitist yourself.

[Logicseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

To echo Lucas, every movement fosters elitism. Including movements against movements. I'm simply saying that it is hypocritical to speak against elitism when you are elitist yourself.

I did not speak against elitism, I argumented that personal development is fostering elitism. I did not say that it is bad. That is your judgement talking. I will not even tell you what I am thinking of it (i.e. if it is "good" or "bad").

These are just things Ive noticed and I think that many havent.

[Michael Chui]

I misinterpreted this statement, then:

"I myself don't think you could or should compare yourself to others (which you is indirectly doing by talking about brightest bear)."

[Logicseeker]

Yes, you did. I was talking about comparison, not about elitism.
And besides let's asume I'm an elitist... (I can even informally PM you and say that I am one lol)
Is an argument about murder invalid if it comes from a murderer?
Cannot a fisherman say that "he is a fisherman"?
Cannot a soldier say that "he is a soldier"?

Do you see what I am getting at? That is not good argumentation...

[esn]

Quitting PD ?
OK.
Good for you (especially if you are not getting what you want by studying it).
Life demands PD, and is the best teacher of all.
Thanks for sharing what you learned.


Best Wishes,
Eric

[Michael Chui]

Originally Posted by Logicseeker

Yes, you did. I was talking about comparison, not about elitism.
And besides let's asume I'm an elitist... (I can even informally PM you and say that I am one lol)
Is an argument about murder invalid if it comes from a murderer?
Cannot a fisherman say that "he is a fisherman"?
Cannot a soldier say that "he is a soldier"?

Do you see what I am getting at? That is not good argumentation...

I'm curious: where did I suggest that I disagree with you? You're sharing what you've noticed and many haven't; I'm sharing what I noticed and you haven't.

[Logicseeker]

Originally Posted by Michael Chui

I'm curious: where did I suggest that I disagree with you?

If you neither agree nor disagree, please do not join the discussion.