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03-01-2007, 06:38 PM
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 How can we measure the benefits from personal development? Pavlina seems to have accomplished a lot of things but how do we know that this has to do with personal development. Isn't this just a natural process? Aren't all people developing themselves (and some extremely rapidly) while not spending an hour _actively setting up goals etc.? It's very seldom for a person not develop during life and it seems to happen even if they spend their time watching pornography or sitting in jail. How can we really know if personal development hepls? Most people argue something like "I''ve gotten this and that while using PD and therefore it has helped" but we cannot know this without a comparison with a life with NO PD... Time itself seems to develop us... something not many PD writers think about. What is your take on this?      |
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03-01-2007, 06:43 PM
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PD pays off.
__________________ www.*********************** or How I Learned to Stop Waiting for Investors and Start Building Companies Last edited by Antiventurecapital : 03-01-2007 at 06:46 PM. |
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03-01-2007, 06:59 PM
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| I know people trying for 20 years with PD not getting much out of it. But they get SOME out of it. And so do all people. Ask anyone and they will say that they know more now than they did before. Unless amnesia is existant, then you are guaranteed to develop through time, at least by learning. So how do we know how much credibility PD has? I'm confused. |
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03-01-2007, 07:03 PM
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Really. |
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03-01-2007, 07:04 PM
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Help me out here...define 'personal development'. What are YOU talking about when you use that term? |
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03-02-2007, 12:47 AM
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| PD works ... If you act on what you learn How effective PD is depends on what the individual does with what he/she learns. PD can teach anyone everything needed to succeed in life. How to find your life purpose, how to set goals, how to manage your time, how to have the right mind set, etc. And there are only a few key principles which every author or motivator presents in his own way. However, it's the actions one takes as a result of the learning that will determine one's success and thus, the effectiveness of PD. Success does not happen overnight and automatically. It takes actions, perseverance and discipline. Personally, PD has teached me a lot since I was introduced to it 1 year ago. So far, I have not seen tangible monetary benefits yet but I have taken many actions to set-up imminent monetary pay-off. However, i have become a lot more effective in everything I do, my perspective on life has drastically changed and I enjoy life a lot more. René |
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03-02-2007, 01:03 AM
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| rene tuoches on a very important issue for me. That is, the quality of my present moment experience of life. That is very important to me. Other than that, I measure my PD experience by comparing my situation in 13 areas of my life (an adaptation of steve's areas of life list--social, mental, physical, etc) from some time ago to now. For example, in the six months or so since I've actively been into PD, I've improved each one of those areas tremendously. However, I can feel my growth stagflating a little now, so I've a new challenge entirely: how to keep myself motivated towards goals.
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss |
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03-02-2007, 05:58 AM
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| I think PD works wonders when you actually practice it by taking the necessary action steps from the information you learn about. Many people read book after book on topics related to PD but never make any progress towards their goals, if they even have any set goals, because they don't put into practice what they have learned. PD is great if you force yourself to use it. Once you start getting the hang of it you don't need to force it at all as it becomes a regular part of your life. John
__________________ Universe Of Success - Personal Development Supersite |
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03-02-2007, 10:02 AM
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| Im sorry but you are missing my point.  PD in its popular meaning is supposed to raise our awareness for one thing. But we know for certain that time alone and perhaps even spending that time in jail or on a strib club will also raise your awareness eventually. My question is how much credibility we should attach to PD and how can we find out how effective it is. It is perfectly possible to be of much less importance than people give it credit for. The thing Ive come up with so far is comparing identical twins living under similiar circumstances, one using PD, and one just living and then compare results. But it is a tricky beast... Last edited by Logicseeker : 03-02-2007 at 11:59 AM. |
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03-04-2007, 08:27 PM
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| Logicseeker, I like your way of analysing under a (natural) scientific perspective. Falsifiability, measurability, and so on. That truly counts for people looking for reason and justification, who are not satisfied by recognizing "that it works" alone. As you, I also like Steve's articles a lot, but also ask if they could be replaced by something else, that may also be of deeper (because broader) value. ImOpen pointed out in another thread, that Steve does not refer to philosophers, authors of great literature, or other aspects and work of humanities. PD surely has its value, but as you ask the question: How much is it, and what exactly is it - because if we'd know it more precisely, we could maybe seek better resources (I doubt there's anything in PD which can not be found in philosophy or literature, but the latter two are hard to study through. People tend to want quick answers rather than think and conclude for themselves). One thing that I very dislike in the PD community is those list-of-definite-answers-fixation. Tony Robbins claims to have found the "6 needs" of all people, as does Coach XY claim to have found the N reasons for ABC. Instead of profoundly, scientifically arguing for something of relevance AND evidence (which would need a serious background of the presenter), PD-folks just find simple answers for human's deep questions, thus build their kind of religion and present it emotionally rather than with solid argumentation. Steve Pavlina is the only exception I know. I guess it's obvious that he is able to think rationally and that he has studied math and computer science. Ray says in school he hated science, and so it is to explain that it's not hard for him at all to abuse it for making money. What I do not like about Pavlina's site is the LOA and intention-manifestation stuff. I consider these things illusions. They may (seem to!) work, but they still are illusions, and one should not consciously get oneself into illusions while trying to live consciously. Last edited by MarvinMini : 03-04-2007 at 08:30 PM. |
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03-04-2007, 10:29 PM
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I can't do either because I don't have the resources to pull off a study of that scale in a scientifically rigorous way. However, I don't think its necessary to. I think you need to put more emphasis on your personal experience (your emotions, beliefs, etc) of life, because, ultimately, that's about all you have. I know personal obversations and experience have limited reach in scientific studies, however, unless you are trying to prove to other people whether PD works or not, it should qualify quite well. Do you need a study to prove to you that you are happy? I'm very, very happy right now. And whenever I'm doing some sort of PD, even if it hurts momentarily (like when working out), its lots of fun and I really enjoy doing it. For me, that feeling alone is worth it for me to continue doing this, much like the other sports or hobbies I've been a part of before now. And compared to six months ago, my life is hugely better. Would it have been like this if I hadn't started consciously growing? Almost certainly not. How do I know? Because I know what I was like six months ago, and I would not have changed without some sort of external influence. I could not have generated this kind of change wholly internally. Don't make the fundamental attribution error. PD will not work for everyone. Defining "working" is another challenge. The experience of consciously growing versus letting life force you to grow. Pavlina touches on this (and I know you don't want to read more Pavlina posts, but hey, there's wisdom in these here words): "The bottom line though is that no one has to grow consciously. Life itself will guarantee growth anyway. How can one live on earth and not learn and grow? Either you grow consciously, or life throws you experiences that force you to grow unconsciously. Until you’re actually dead and buried, growth and change are guaranteed. So my decision is to embrace that fact and flow with the process of growth and change consciously. The alternative is to grow unconsciously. I’ve done both, and I find conscious growing much more enjoyable and fulfilling." http://www.stevepavlina.com/blog/200...growth-at-all/ However, if you wish to continue in this vein, we could imagine some experiments. What is the aim of Personal Development, and how can we measure whether it is fulfilling that aim? One of your criteria seems to be that you raise your awareness through personal development. You'd have to explain your exact definition of awareness. Alternatively, we could try success. How do people who are into PD rate compared to others (either part of a random sampling, or based on consensus averages) based on objective success indicators (say, income, wealth, kind of house, etc), as well as subjective indicators (how would you rate your relationships, how happy are you, etc). You could go one step further and get a group of people (at lesat 200, the more the better), expose half of them to PD material and see how many of them decide to stick with it (by, say, how much time spent, or money spent on PD). Then, observe/question them a few years later to see if there's a higher-than-average levels of whatever you want to test for (happiness, material success, etc) compared to your control group. The thing is, though, that personal development is such a broad term, it can be taken to apply to pretty much anything. It can apply to spiritual growth, or trying to improve your personal effectiveness, or just wanting to get better at sex. Many people could be practicing it without calling themselves a PDer, as well. For example, I have a friend who'd never heard of Tony Robbins, Steve Pavlina or the whole PD community until I introduced him to it, but he spent years improving himself long before I met him. You can study something intangible like happiness all you want. You can know that it is the release of chemicals in your own brain and you can know every single thing about, but that does nothing to dimish the actual experience of being happy. Pay attention to your personal experience. If you don't like doing it, don't. I hope I properly understood what you were asking for, and this post was cohesive enough to be understandable. I dunno if you're still around, however I'd appreciate feedback on what I've said.
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss |
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03-04-2007, 10:43 PM
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However, if you think there's a better way out there, go and find it and let us know!
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss Last edited by RT Wolf : 03-04-2007 at 11:07 PM. |
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03-05-2007, 08:59 AM
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| Surely people would know whether PD is helping them or not? Example: (1) you manage your time poorly. (2) you read a time management book, find 3 useful ideas and apply them (4) you now manage your time better I mean, seriously. How could you NOT know whether PD has helped you? Further example. (1) you have a fear of public speaking (2) you go for an NLP course where the trainer does NLP on you (3) you no longer have a fear of public speaking Uh, isn't that rather clear? Let's try another one. (1) You are a financial mess. You don't understand anything about investments or financial planning, and you're living from paycheck to paycheck. (2) You read a PD book that talks about how to manage your money. (3) Applying what you learned from the book, you set some financial goals, eliminate your credit card debt, get your insurance in order, and begin to save and invest regularly. In case this still isn't clear, let's try another one. (1) You constantly feel stressed and worried and anxious. (2) You take a stress management course. (3) Based on what you learned, you apply stress management techniques and ideas. (4) You now feel happy, relaxed, calm and focused. Pardon me for belabouring the obvious. Perhaps there's something I'm seriously missing in Logicseeker's question. But it seems to me that if a PD book/CD/course/seminar/DVD has been useful to you, you would be the first to know it. If it has not been useful to you, you would also be the first to know it. Last edited by Acting Like Godot : 03-05-2007 at 01:05 PM. |
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03-09-2007, 11:56 PM
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| I have a funny feeling that my last post single-handedly killed this thread.  |
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03-10-2007, 02:46 PM
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| Heh, nah. Looks like logicseeker abandoned this thread. I haven't seen him post lately, either, so he's prolly gone now. I laughed when I read your reply, because I felt like the engineer that's overthinking how to fix a computer, while a wise man comes and just hits the on button. Good stuff.
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss |
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03-10-2007, 06:38 PM
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| Perhaps he is off seeking logic. ALG, if you were missing it, so was I. I still don't get that whole "But we know for certain that time alone and perhaps even spending that time in jail or on a strib club will also raise your awareness eventually." He makes it sound like something everybody knows, which makes me feel stupid, because I don't know this at all. If I had, I might have spent more time in strip clubs. |
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03-10-2007, 07:02 PM
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| ^ He seemed like he wanted accountability and robustness of thought, and his post seemed to not be as clear as I woulda liked. The definition of "awareness" varies greatly, so it woulda helped if he had pointed out exactly he meant.
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss Last edited by RT Wolf : 03-10-2007 at 07:15 PM. |
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03-10-2007, 08:41 PM
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03-12-2007, 03:25 PM
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I was asked for different resources: philosophy and literature. Guys, don't mix up philosophy with "one's philosophy of life" of "our philosophy" of businesses. I'd say from PD come ideas, but not real insights. Real change is done by action and deep, broad thought over time, but not from quick-fix-ideas. I'm convinced about it, since I face the limits of PD myself. Sure, I got good ideas from it, but I would also have got some good ideas elsewhere (philosophy, literature, people around me). The difference is, in (let's say) philosophical texts, you get a real picture, and you really get to think yourself. Because philosophy remains empty as long as you are not thinking about it yourself. In philosophy you have to get involved; PD overwhelms you with thousands of ideas that you can't install from one moment to the other. We can only learn one thing at a time. |
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03-12-2007, 03:51 PM
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| I look at my study of philosophy and ancient literature as a part of my personal development. If you mean modern PD materials, from like Tony Robbins and Pavlina and so on, then yes, I agree with you. The new materials have their own value, but its important to keep seeking a variety of sources of ideas. The question of whether those older sources are more or less effective than PD stuff is different. The answer can only be it depends. Depends on the person in question and the specific materials in question. For example, I try to think about the stuff I read. I'm making an attempt to reduce the amount of PD stuff that's coming into my world and try to figure out what the next action on each would be. There's also a lot of stuff regular PD stuff doesn't cover, such as wisdom, which is very important to me. I disagree with you that we can only learn one thing at a time. What "thing"? Again, I think we're suffering from not having a common vocabulary more than a difference of opinion. I think we need to define our terms.
__________________ Mind-Manual "Pure hell forces action, but anything less can be endured with enough clever rationalization." - Tim Ferriss Last edited by RT Wolf : 03-12-2007 at 04:03 PM. |
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03-12-2007, 06:02 PM
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| Thank you for that nice post, RT Wolf! Indeed, my criticism referred to modern PD material. It most often lacks justification or at least solid argumentation, which is never the case in high quality, famous literature and philosophy. Real great minds - those from whom you can learn most from do not neglect scientific evidence, common sense, or the necessity of logical consitency and so on. This is way I truly freak out when hearing people like Tony Robbins and especially James Ray, who just creates his own science that just cannot hold under any rational thought. We did not all create the sun by our will... |