Is there some moral high ground to being poor that I am missing?

[renie408]

I am constantly reading posts praising the benefits of hardship, toil and poverty. It seems to me like every other post on the I/M board is telling the people there that they are BAD for trying to manifest 'better' lives for themselves.

Why is money 'BAD'? Why is finding a less labor and time intensive way to earn money 'BAD'? I wandered over here and one of the first threads I saw was about how much happier we would all be if we forgot about money.

Trust me, from experience I know that the only time you CAN forget about money is when you have plenty of it.

I am not saying that 'greed' is good. But is it REALLY greedy to want good things for yourself and for your family? To want the time and the ease to experience more of the things the world has to offer? I am not talking about an Hermes handbag or a Maserati. I am talking about wanting to be able to see more of the world. The ease to spend time together without anxiety. And if I did want an Hermes handbag or a Maserati, is that 'wrong'?

Is there really anything all that great about struggling to pay your bills? Or just struggling in general?? I think there is a difference between saying, "I want what I want in as easy and comfortable a manner without harming anyone." and saying, "I want what I want and screw anybody that gets in my way." Even I can see that the last one is not a good outlook on life.

I also think it is important to learn to be happy whether you have money or not. But let's face it, money sure as hell doesn't HURT when you are trying to be happy.

I really don't get the righteous attitude that some people here take on money, work and pain. It makes no sense that I can discern.

[Isabelle]

I remember not having enough money to feed my kids. I was looking for change in the drawers to buy bread, stuff for sandwiches and milk and I could not find enough. I was in total dispair, crying alone in my room while my kids were waiting for dinner. I had no choice but to borrow money from my neighboor. It was a nightmare.

I never want this to happen again. You can not be happy when your babies are hungry.

Now, as long as I have food on the table every single day, I consider myself rich enough. Don't need a new car, don't need expensive clothes, don't need a big house. When I say: "dinner is ready", I am grateful and I feel like I'm living in abundance.

[Antiventurecapital]

There is absolutely nothing positive about poverty. It's religion which has created and perpetuated this myth to keep the masses docile: don't try to change anything in this life, accept the status quo, and you will be rewarded in some imaginary afterlife. There are now tens of millions of Americans who have bought this lie hook, line, and sinker. As a result they eagerly await rapture because they see no value in this life. This is tragic in my view.

A real eye-opener is the section on Wallace Wattle's book on how money helps you to live a fuller life and do more good. With money you can affect real change in the world. Look at the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation. Without money the good you can do is limited to minor things like mowing your elderly neighbor's lawn.

[trekr5]

Oprah Winfrey was asked whether she felt guilty about having so much wealth.Her response? " I cannot see how my being poor will help anyone"

I agree with her 100%. The world runs on money and I get very irritated with people that preach that money is the root of all evil. Says who? Money is a tool.that is all it is. Money represents freedom. Compare the quality of life between someone that has money and another that hasn't..there is a big difference. I would say to these individuals that instead of castigating people that have the wealth, why not try and show those that haven't got it a way for them to become self-sufficient through skills training etc so they can provide for themselves.

There is plenty of abundance everywhere and that will only grow ( take a look at the gazillions being raised by hedge funds and private equity funds for investments). There is more than enough for everyone many times over. I have pledged to myself that I will help people to become personally responsible for their lives..I believe that that is a gift you can give to your fellow human being.

My mantra that I live by: Give a man a fish and you have fed him for the day; Teach a man to fish and you have fed him for a lifetime

[Alex]

I believe that there is no real benefit of being poor. When I say poor I mean not being able to have all your needs (i.e. food, shelter, safety). There is nothing wrong with wanting an upgrade in that department, enjoying the finer things in life, living in a big house, in a safe neighborhood.

I believe money is a problem when it becomes an obsession and defines people's personalities. If all you do is dream of money, you're missing out on a lot. Just makes sure that if you strive for wealth that you also have other aspects of life that you want to exceed at, appreciate, and enjoy. Hobbies, friends, and goals should not be focused on one thing. I'm not saying that having a primary focus is bad, i'm saying that having a singular purpose in unhealthy.

[Liara Covert]

I agree with Alex that money as a concept can be a problem if it becomes an obsession. I also agree with him when he says it can be a good incentive to improve your otherwise discouraging circumstances.

If we review that recent Will Smith movie, "The Pursuit of Happyness," it makes good points. Smith plays Chris Gardner, a man who's incentive to get his life in order is his kindergarten-aged son for whom he becomes the sole provider. Some of the hardest experiences he deals with include spending nights in homeless shelters and train station bathrooms because he has no money. Yet, he is motivated to get accepted into a stock internship program and uses his resourcefulness and ingenuity to turn his life around. He desires to earn more money, but money doesn't run his life.

To borrow the quote offered by trekr5: Oprah says "I can see how being poor will help anyone." Consider the lives of people like Mother Teresa, Mahatmas Gandhi, Martin Luther and others who have had dreams to change the lives of the less fortunate. They did more than inspire without having lots of money. We shouldn't limit our thinking to believe that we must have money to make a difference.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

To borrow the quote offered by trekr5: Oprah says "I can see how being poor will help anyone." Consider the lives of people like Mother Teresa, Mahatmas Gandhi, Martin Luther and others who have had dreams to change the lives of the less fortunate. They did more than inspire without having lots of money. We shouldn't limit our thinking to believe that we must have money to make a difference.

Do we think that there is some middle ground between the richest woman in the world and Mother Teresa? And when do you plan to abandon all of your worldly possessions to move to India and take care of a leper colony?

Did you mean Martin Luther KING? Or Martin Luther the religious reformer? Because I believe I have heard something recently about the religious reformer not being all he is cracked up to be.

[Little Deb]

I grew up "poor," but I never really caught on, since I seldom talked to other kids about money.( I was taught to be a polite Presbyterian minister's daughter.) Plus,my family loved me (when they weren't complaining how much everything cost to raise us kids.) I always had nice clothes that mom got at the discount store. Food was limited, but we never starved. Most of all,we were taught to take very good care of everything we owned. However, i could have benefited from some advice on investing in an education, but let's not get into that. Now, in my mid-adult years, I have continued to be frugal and save most of my income in bank investments, etc. However, I am amazed that I actually get flack from my mom for buying myself some nice things or even taking a vacation once a year, instead of just working day after day at the DQ. I have to convince her that there is something called "enjoying the fruits of one's labour." She is still in the mind set that I somehow do not deserve anything nice, as I just work at a fast-food place. (My brothers are both scentists and make lots of moneyAnyway, there is no moral in a life of lack, but it sure can be a source of creative inspiration to figure out how to make due without luxuries. Personally, I believe the worst poverty is in the mind: feeling lost and uncertain on how to use the resources all around, and thus remaining in a prison on ones own creation.

[Dani]

Originally Posted by Liara Covert

To borrow the quote offered by trekr5: Oprah says "I can see how being poor will help anyone." Consider the lives of people like Mother Teresa, Mahatmas Gandhi, Martin Luther and others who have had dreams to change the lives of the less fortunate. They did more than inspire without having lots of money. We shouldn't limit our thinking to believe that we must have money to make a difference.

I feel like I am repeating myself...

None of Gandhi, MLK, or Mother Teresa were poor. They led simple lives, yes, but they didn't starve (except vouluntarily in Ghandi's case), they weren't beggers and they didn't not have anything they needed. They had lives of simple abundance.

Do you really think that if MT had said 'I want a BMW' That someone somewhere wouldn't have just given her one? She didn't have one because she didn't wan't one. She wanted to be knee deep in a leper colony to feel fulfilled.

But that isn't the only way to feel fulfilled or contribute to society. Nor does the fact that X person doesn't want a BMW that I am greedy because I do.

Plus, if you want to put it into statistical terms, I am pretty sure Bill gates, and Warren Buffet have both helped more individuals than Mother Teresa has, and they are still helping more every day.

How? Because they have the money to have dozens or even hundreds of people working to help, instead of just having themselves to give personally.

You can change the world with little money. But that doesn't make it the only way or the better way. Plus it is easier to change the world when you aren't struggling to feed yourself every day.

Because money is nothing more than portable value. Money by itself is useless. You can't do anything with money. You can't eat it, can't build with it, can grow anything from it. It is only useful as a representation of value.

poor = no money = you aren't generating value for yourself or others.

[renie408]

Dani, I was going to say the same thing about Mother Teresa and Oprah earlier, but I chickened out. Of those two women, which one wo you think has had the greater direct impact on the most lives? How many people did/do each employ? How many schools did each build and fund? To say that any one model of humanitarianism is 'better' than the other is misguided. Yes, it was, without question, a truly wonderful thing that Mother Teresa did. Somebody needed to get in there and give medicine to the lepers in Calcutta. But somebody had to PAY for the medicine, too. One without the other is of little value.

"Well, my way is more honorable because it requires more self-sacrifice." is honestly a silly thing to say. Sacrifice away. But first stop and ask yourself what the actual benefit is in real improvement of someone's life. Or if maybe it just makes you feel noble.

[John Wesley]

There is no moral high ground to being poor. Neither there any superiority to being rich. Being rich is worshiped though, and this anti-wealth sentiment is the backlash.

I wrote about this a while back.

Why the Unmaterialistic Should Have the Greatest Drive to Get Rich

[DiscoDan]

I want to try and introduce a different viewpoint here, just to mix things up a little bit.

First, I'm not going to argue that being rich is bad, as this wouldn't really make any sense. However, what I will try to argue is that having a lack of money some of the time is a good thing.

Let me give you an example. Let's say you grew up in a family in which you received a large inheritance of several billions of dollars. In addition, you will continue to receive huge sums of money throughout your life (just in case you run out). If you lived this kind of life, would you have any appreciation of money at all? Of course not! In fact, you wouldn't be thinking about money whatsoever (why would you, if you didn't have to?). In this case, the abundance of money neither adds nor subtracts from your overall happiness.

Now let's say you were born into a poor family where food, clothes, and money were all scarce. Your family when you were a child was constantly concerned about when the next paycheck would arrive, simply so that they could provide you with what you need to live. Now, in this case, money can actually bring you happiness. You'll work hard in your life to make sure that you'll have money, and in turn, this new abundance of money will actually bring you happiness.

Comparing these two cases, we see that money provides positive utility for only the person in the latter scenario. You can only learn to appreciate (and, thus, derive happiness from) money only if you've had a lack of it in the past. Therefore, we should not look upon being poor as something "bad" (just as we shouldn't look at being rich as something bad). It is merely one step in the process of adding to our future "happiness potential".

[jacmac1]

Just to quote a biblical passage, the bible says: The Love of Money is the root of evil, not money itself.

I think there is a lot of truth in that statement. It is our attitude about money that creates problems.

For myself, money is only valuable to the extent of what I can do with it, and I like to spend it on myself just as much as I like to spend it on others!

On the subject of the value of being poor, it is unfortunate that human nature doesn't seem to learn unless there is a need that has to be fulfilled - this is what usually inspires the drive in us to change things.

If we were'nt like that, there would not be an poverty or pain - it is the living experience that challenges us and if all of our needs were met, we wouldn't be challenged at all.

[jacmac1]

I actually think it was Chris Gardner's (The Pursuit of Happyness) desire to be a father to his son, to break the cycle of men that abandoned their children in his family that is the secret of his success. I believe he was single mindedly focused on that and hence his accomplisments.

For instance, I never, ever think about money, worry about it - I know that whatever I need will be provided, and consequently I have never gone without, but in fact have always been blessed beyond imagination.

Now, I used to worry a lot about money being a single mother and growing up poor, but a number of years ago I just decided that I would not do that to myself anymore.

When I receive money, I am very happy and feel blessed. When I need more than I have I set out to get it and I never think that I won't. So I always have what I need, in abundance.

I don't believe buying things for others is the be all end all either. Sometimes a kind word or a smile is priceless - and no amount of money can heal a spiritually broken person.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

First, I'm not going to argue that being rich is bad, as this wouldn't really make any sense. However, what I will try to argue is that having a lack of money some of the time is a good thing.

I can live with that. That is, in essence, contrast.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by jacmac1

I actually think it was Chris Gardner's (The Pursuit of Happyness) desire to be a father to his son, to break the cycle of men that abandoned their children in his family that is the secret of his success. I believe he was single mindedly focused on that and hence his accomplisments.

For instance, I never, ever think about money, worry about it - I know that whatever I need will be provided, and consequently I have never gone without, but in fact have always been blessed beyond imagination.

Now, I used to worry a lot about money being a single mother and growing up poor, but a number of years ago I just decided that I would not do that to myself anymore.

When I receive money, I am very happy and feel blessed. When I need more than I have I set out to get it and I never think that I won't. So I always have what I need, in abundance.

I don't believe buying things for others is the be all end all either. Sometimes a kind word or a smile is priceless - and no amount of money can heal a spiritually broken person.

And I can agree with everything written here.

My feelings stem from people who preach about how we should not 'want' money. I don't want money. I want to feed my kids, pay my bills and enjoy my life without worrying about how I am going to do those things. In my reality, which I I know someone will tell me I could change if only I thought about it differently, that takes money. In fact, I am going to be bold here and say that I want MORE THAN ENOUGH. I actually want EXTRA. And I am not shy about it. Do I want to take food out of the mouths of others? No. Will I do ANYTHING to get the extra? No. Is having extra more important than my family? No. Is the total focus of my life having more money? No. Do I think that money makes me sexier, smarter, better looking (barring plastic surgery), more successful? No, no, no, no.

Do I feel like I am somehow less spiritual or less 'good' because I want extra? Another big NO. And if somebody else feels that I am less good because I desire more than enough, they might spend a little more time examining the plank in their eye before they worry about the speck in mine.

[Ibanez]

Blackadder: A man may fight for many things. His country, his friends, his principles, the glistening ear on the cheek of a golden child. But personally, I'd mud-wrestle my own mother for a ton of cash, an amusing clock and a sack of French porn.
-Duel and Duality

Also

"Blessed are the meek....for they shall be slaughtered!!" - Some Friar

[Dating Specialist]

Originally Posted by DiscoDan

Comparing these two cases, we see that money provides positive utility for only the person in the latter scenario. You can only learn to appreciate (and, thus, derive happiness from) money only if you've had a lack of it in the past. Therefore, we should not look upon being poor as something "bad" (just as we shouldn't look at being rich as something bad). It is merely one step in the process of adding to our future "happiness potential".

Well DiscoDan, I do appreciate your argument of using contrast to show how money can be a motivation and driving force which leads to the pursuit of happiness.

At the same time, I also feel that in the case of the rich man, if he has been taught since young the values of money, and what it represents, like what
Dani so aptly put it across that money is only useful as a representation of value, then he won't be any different than the poor man! Because he would have also learnt to appreciate money the way the poor man does, but from a different perspective, as he realised the power money brings that can benefit so many people's lives.

Therefore, when one has reached the stage where money isn't a concern at all, then what other factors can make him hungry for success as well? Success is defined uniquely, not necessary the fame and social standing that we're all accustomed to.

Poor people may be driven by money, so that they can get out of poverty. Rich people can equally be very driven too, and they do that for a different cause, that is to help more people. So, I guess it's a matter of beliefs about what money can do.

[DiscoDan]

Originally Posted by Dating Specialist

At the same time, I also feel that in the case of the rich man, if he has been taught since young the values of money, and what it represents, like what
Dani so aptly put it across that money is only useful as a representation of value, then he won't be any different than the poor man! Because he would have also learnt to appreciate money the way the poor man does, but from a different perspective, as he realised the power money brings that can benefit so many people's lives.

Ah, you bring up a fantastic point here. Once again, I'll take a different point of view, just to mix things up a bit.

While it is true that the rich man can learn when he is very young to appreciate the value of money, the gap between learning and knowing is a great one.

For example, the rich man who has never been poor can give away his money to help others and (consequently) feel good about himself.

Now imagine the poor man who has earned his way to the top. Every time he sees someone hungry, it will bring up memories of the past along with the painful emotions that go with them. And, as he decides to help, he will remember a time when he, too, was in such dire need of even the smallest act of kindness. Every time he uses his money to feed someone who otherwise would not be able to eat, at that instant, it is as if someone were feeding him when he was not able to eat. Imagine how extraordinary it must feel every time he uses his money for such positive purposes, knowing how he felt when he could eat because of someone else's unconditional empathy.

So while the rich man who was never poor may learn how good it is to put his money to good purposes, he will never know how much good he actually serves. Thus, while this man can give with great kindness, it is much harder for him to empathise with the very people he helps.