Does Money bring Happiness?

[celeste]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

In the secular world, the concept of "sin" does not compute.

People make mistakes, they lie, cheat, steal, kill, and do other nasty things which call for a showing of remorse and as well as societal punishment, but there is no such thing as "sin".

Then what is your definition of sin? Is it "not measuring up to the mark"? And aren't we all guilty of that? What stardard are we all measuring up to? If we are not measuring up to our own personal standards, then what's the basic standard? Perhaps is it must be a higher being?

Would it be reasonable to say that our standard is God? That we base the concept of "sin" on "not measuring up to God's standard"?

What exactly IS God's standard? According to him, anything that does not measure up to him is sin. And he is perfection. James 2:10 says "For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all." The whole law is God's law of perfection. If we stumble in one point, meaning if we lie, cheat, or steal just ONCE, we are guilty of all. One sin separates a person from perfection.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by celeste

Then what is your definition of sin? Is it "not measuring up to the mark"? And aren't we all guilty of that? What stardard are we all measuring up to? If we are not measuring up to our own personal standards, then what's the basic standard? Perhaps is it must be a higher being?

I don't have a definition of "sin" as stated above because it's not something I believe in. Yes, people do bad things, terrible things, abused kids grow up into angry violent adults and the vicious cycle begins anew, but we can describe and discuss their transgressions without any need to bring in imaginary concepts. Your problem is that you just assume that everyone really agrees with your belief system even when they tell you a half a dozen time that they don't.

Your communication would also improve dramatically if you substituted "I" for "we". You certainly don't speak for the entire human race. You certainly don't speak for me.

[Dani]

You still never answered my question about what it is about god that makes you feel do fulfilled.

You just said that other things didn't make you fulfiiled.

I liked your example of the wealthy stars that aren't truly happy. I would hazard a guess that there are far more unhappy people out there with nothing. So it's a tad of a moot point.

Back to my question, why does God fill this void? How does he do it? What do you do every day that makes you feel so fulfiled? Sit and talk to him? Does he come give you a back rub? How do you spend your days that makes you feel so fulfilled?

Just repeating the same words over and over doesn't make your argument any more sound.

Thanks for you nice points about the Bible AntiVC. I would also like to know Celeste which parts of the bible are actually correct, and which ones are the mistranslations and interpretations?

Do you have this information? Or do you just believe it all? In which case I am in desperate need of a female slave to look after my apartment! So get over here and perform your bible decreed duties please.

[renie408]

Originally Posted by celeste

Would it be reasonable to say that our standard is God? That we base the concept of "sin" on "not measuring up to God's standard"?

Yes. 'Sin' is not measuring up to God's standard.

Definition of sin: any act regarded as such a transgression, esp. a willful or deliberate violation of some religious principle.

Way to display a working knowledge of semantics. Unfortunately for your apparent argument, that is all this statement does.

Definition of morality: a doctrine or system of morals.

'Sin' is a religious concept. 'Morality' is a societal concept. It is a common misconception among religious people that without god, there would be no morality. This is simply ridiculous. Morality is important for the smooth running of any society. People have to have a reasonable expectation of safety and honest dealings between members of their society to live comfortably and productively. That would be why the founding fathers, while excluding god, included the Bill of Rights (Don't go there. You will not have a leg to stand on.)To say that without 'god' we would have no morality is short sighted and self serving of a religious agenda. And just not a good display of logic.

[renie408]

I wanted to add that I don't have a problem with Celeste's religious views. Those are her personal business. And I don't have a problem with Celeste, whom I have never met. I have a problem with some of her apparent assumptions which she is basing on her belief in religion.

I think it is a good thing to keep in mind that the Bible and god are not the same thing. The Bible was pieced together from many gospels 400 years after the death of Christ by a committee. This would be like a group of people sitting down in the year 2407 and deciding to cement how something that is happening today really occurred and what it means for society THEN. Only when the Bible we know was put together, they didn't have videos, computers or any really reliable recording methods. Many of the gospels and books of the Bible were retold word of mouth before being written down, sometimes hundreds of years after the initial events supposedly occurred. Anyway, I just think that EVERYBODY, believer or not, would benefit from keeping these things in mind whenever the Bible is cited as a reference.

I am not sure if I think that all of the above detracts from the Bible's value as a religious work. It just effects its value as a reference in an argument between secular and religious viewpoints.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by renie408

'Sin' is a religious concept. 'Morality' is a societal concept. It is a common misconception among religious people that without god, there would be no morality. This is simply ridiculous. Morality is important for the smooth running of any society. People have to have a reasonable expectation of safety and honest dealings between members of their society to live comfortably and productively. That would be why the founding fathers, while excluding god, included the Bill of Rights (Don't go there. You will not have a leg to stand on.)To say that without 'god' we would have no morality is short sighted and self serving of a religious agenda. And just not a good display of logic.

I totally agree but will add just a bit more detail.

Here's the irony in all this. Study anthropology and you discover that practical considerations always precede religious beliefs. For example, why do desert dwellers such as Arabs and Jews consider eating pork a taboo? Or sin? Well, pigs are animals which require a lot of water. If the smart members of the tribe ask for everyone's cooperation by not raising pigs due to water scarcity, they may get a 90% compliance rate. The other 10% will ignore the rule because they either love the taste of pork or have customers in another tribe for their pigs. But if you tell everyone that "god" forbids the consumption of pork and will strike anyone down with a thunderbolt who does, the compliance rate shoots up to 99.99%.

The elites learned this secret to controlling the masses long ago after some trial and error.

[Antiventurecapital]

I'm a firm believer in curiosity and critical thought. There are just too many charlatans out there to be guarded against, most of which drape themselves in the flag and thump the bible while spewing lies. If we are told to believe something, it makes sense to ask "why?" and consider the evidence before making a final decision.

I went through 12 years of religious education but started having doubts about religion in the first grade over the dinosaur issue, because like most boys at that age I was fascinated by them. The fact that the biblical account of a 6000 year old flat earth had no room for them triggered my initial skepticism.

More importantly, we were told that all of humanity which had never heard of Jesus because it lived before him or in other cultures simply went to hell. IOW, they were born doomed. I found this religious conceit morally repulsive.

So thus began my long search for proof outside of the bible that the bible is truly the word of god. Guess what, I found nothing more than one vague footnote in the historian Josephus' writing about a rebel leader named Jesus. Historians still argue over whether or not he was referring to the biblical Jesus or someone else as it was a common name back then. Moreover, geologists, archeologists, anthropologists, etc. are showing that the bible is far more a book of fables than an accurate historial record of ancient times.

I then moved on to reading about the bible and its history. More and more doubts arose in my mind.

What do I believe today? Well, I prefer to think that there is a god although he/she is certainly not the old Israeli war-god that's persisted for so long in some circles. A few months ago, I heard an hour long interview with physicist Michio Kaku on NPR and then bought his latest book Parallel Worlds. He was talking about recent discoveries in his field which point to us living not in a universe, but in a multiverse. He claims that within five years we will have proof that there are actually an unlimited number of parallel universes instead of just one. These universes are constantly being born through big bangs and then eventually dying. Think of a soap bubble machine cranking out bubbles.

As you read about recent discoveries in physics and cosmology, you are struck by the conclusion that if there is an intelligence which created such a vast complex of universes it is most assuredly above roasting people over a fire for eternity because they were born in a time or place which had the "wrong" religion or because they had gay sex.

(I'm straight but find it absurd that a god would create gay people and then punish them for being the way that he made them. No, it's not a lifestyle choice, folks. But that's a whole new topic.)

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

As you read about recent discoveries in physics and cosmology, you are struck by the conclusion that if there is an intelligence which created such a vast complex of universes it is most assuredly above roasting people over a fire for eternity because they were born in a time or place which had the "wrong" religion or because they had gay sex.

What he said.

[Antiventurecapital]

"If the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" --Robert G. Ingersoll

Hmmm....

[renie408]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

"If the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" --Robert G. Ingersoll

Hmmm....

Damn.

You should have quite while you were ahead.

You have just opened the door for free will and the DEVIL!

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by renie408

Damn.

You should have quite while you were ahead.

You have just opened the door for free will and the DEVIL!

Maybe not. I think that believers can believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god and still "sin".

Conversely, I'm someone who tries to lead a good life but can't accept that a book so full of errors (many of which are downright howlers), plagiarisms from earlier myths, and contradictions could be the "word of god."

It stretches credulity past the breaking point to believe that an intelligence capable of creating the universe would choose to rely on a collection of ignorant, superstitious goat-herders living 2000 to 3000 years ago, to relay its moral code to us.

But that's just me.

[renie408]

>>Maybe not. I think that believers can believe that the bible is the inerrant word of god and still "sin".<<

I know this one and actually have not problem with it. If you sincerely repent and ask forgiveness, all is forgiven. I tend to think that's a good way to live whether or not you are religious. Of course, I do fail the smell test when it comes to believing that Christ died on a cross for my sins.

>>Conversely, I'm someone who tries to lead a good life but can't accept that a book so full of errors (many of which are downright howlers), plagiarisms from earlier myths, and contradictions could be the "word of god."<<

I obviously think you can lead a valuable and moral existence without religion. And I know for a fact that you can raise good children with strong moral beliefs, help others, be honest, and caring and not ever step foot in a church or believe in a god. I also make no judgement on those that do. Well, I do make a judgement, but I recognize that I probably shouldn't. I also question the value of morality in the face of damnation. Which is MORE moral?? To be 'good' because you just understand it to be the right way to be, or to be 'good' because you believe that if you aren't, you will be 'smote'?

>>It stretches credulity past the breaking point to believe that an intelligence capable of creating the universe would choose to rely on a collection of ignorant, superstitious goat-herders living 2000 to 3000 years ago, to relay its moral code to us.

But that's just me.

<<

Well, you are preaching to the choir on that one. I agree completely.

[Antiventurecapital]

I grew up with an open mind towards different religions. I suppose that's because I don't have much interest in a person's religion or lack of it. I never ask anyone about their beliefs. It's their business not mine.

This is mostly because I find that religious is far from being a reliable indicator of a person's morality or ethics. In fact, the more someone talks about how religious they are, the worse they usually turn out to be as people. There's an old joke in business that if someone introduces themselves as a "Christian businessman", you need to run for safety. You better believe it.

Actions do speak louder than words.

To be honest, I find many evangelicals (not mainstream Christians) to be annoying. Rather than keeping their religion to themselves, as everyone else does, they are brainwashed into trying to convert the rest of us. The problem with conversion lies in the fact that the unspoken message is "You're wrong; I'm right. So I am here to save you from yourself, you big dummy."

What a great way to get off on the wrong foot with someone? Especially considering that the evangelical has no proof at all to back up his claims.

This thread was started by someone who regged and then immediately posted a long-winded sermon. Then she deleted the post and replaced it with an innocuous question (but I quoted it in full before it disappeared.)

Bottom line: evangelicals wouldn't get so much flack in society if they stopped being so preachy and stopped trying to save the rest of us. Mention them in the circles I'm part of and people just roll their eyes. It's like mentioning Amway distributors.

[celeste]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

"If the Bible and my brain are both the work of the same Infinite God, whose fault is it that the book and my brain do not agree?" --Robert G. Ingersoll

Hmmm....

Don't we all have free will? Don't we get to choose what we believe? Our brain is simply physical matter; it doesn't think for us. I believe we were all born with free will. No one can tell us what to do and no one can read our thoughts. Unless, if one is a Christian, then they believe that God knows everything, including their thoughts. It's called free will for a reason, we have a choice. So I don't think one should blame God if their personal reasons don't match up with the Bible. One's reasons are formulated from their free will of choice. If their choice differs from the Bible, that is their problem, not God's.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by celeste

Don't we all have free will? Don't we get to choose what we believe? Our brain is simply physical matter; it doesn't think for us. I believe we were all born with free will. No one can tell us what to do and no one can read our thoughts. Unless, if one is a Christian, then they believe that God knows everything, including their thoughts. It's called free will for a reason, we have a choice. So I don't think one should blame God if their personal reasons don't match up with the Bible. One's reasons are formulated from their free will of choice. If their choice differs from the Bible, that is their problem, not God's.

It's their problem, not gods?

[celeste]

Originally Posted by Dani

You still never answered my question about what it is about god that makes you feel do fulfilled.

You just said that other things didn't make you fulfiiled.

I liked your example of the wealthy stars that aren't truly happy. I would hazard a guess that there are far more unhappy people out there with nothing. So it's a tad of a moot point.

Back to my question, why does God fill this void? How does he do it? What do you do every day that makes you feel so fulfiled? Sit and talk to him? Does he come give you a back rub? How do you spend your days that makes you feel so fulfilled?

Just repeating the same words over and over doesn't make your argument any more sound.

Thanks for you nice points about the Bible AntiVC. I would also like to know Celeste which parts of the bible are actually correct, and which ones are the mistranslations and interpretations?

Do you have this information? Or do you just believe it all? In which case I am in desperate need of a female slave to look after my apartment! So get over here and perform your bible decreed duties please.

So your question, why does God fill the void in my life? Why does he fill the void instead of money, possessions, or relationships?

Well first of all, I believe that God loves everyone (John 3:16), no matter what they've done. He loves everyone so much he sent his son Jesus to die on the cross as a sacrifice for our sins. There were a couple previous posts regarding sin, and I believe that everyone has sinned. No one has reached God's standard of perfection. Thus, we are all doomed for Hell. Only perfect people can go to heaven. Well, Jesus became the sacrifice for our sins. He bore the sins of the world while he died on the cross. Now we have a way to Heaven. We are not destined to spend eternity in Hell. I believe that it is a personal choice we all make because everyone has free will. I don't believe that God predestines people to Hell. They make that choice themselves. They choose what they believe. I can't force anyone to believe this stuff, and people can't force me to believe their religion. I chose Christianity voluntarily. The point of this paragraph was, that God loves us. He gave up his son for our sake. I think that is a true picture of love. So regarding WHY God fills the void in my life, I believe he does it because he loves us. He wants us to know how to spend eternity with him. And that's a personal choice anyone can make.

God fills the void in my life in many ways. First of all, when people become a Christian, God comes into their life. Not literally, but symbolically. That means they can pray to him any time and he will always be there to listen. Personally, I find it a great comfort that I can always come to him for help. I like the feeling of knowing that I am not alone. God understands, he created me.

God gives me such a peace; it's really quite indescribable. Basically, I never feel alone, knowing that God is always with me. I don't have to make decisions by myself either, because I can pray for advice. Although he doesn't orally speak to me, he speaks in my heart. I know this may sound foreign for those who haven't experienced it. I know when other people used to talk about the "peace and contentment they got from God," I didn't understand. I didn't understand until I gave God a chance and tried it for myself. I believe the first step to having God fill the void in one's life is to pray. For me, I just admitted to him that I tried other venues of life but they didn't give me the satisfaction I was looking for. I knew I wanted a fuller life, but I didn't know how to get one. So I just prayed.

How else does God fill the void in my life? Well he certainly gives me a purpose for living. Before I came to know him, I basically had no purpose in life. I knew that 1) I wanted to be happy, 2) I wanted to make a lot of money and be successful in my career, 3) I wanted to get married and have a family of my own. I thought this was a pretty typical, reasonable plan. One thing I was certain of, was that I wanted to be happy. However, I didn't know how to attain happiness.

Before I opened my life to the prospective of God, I was restless, searching, and frusterated. Nothing I was doing seemed to get me what I truly wanted in life. In the end, I turned to God, and submitted my life to him. I just wanted to do what he wanted and seek the plan he has for my life, not my own.

I hope I answered your question. Remember, I am in no way trying to condem, convert, or preach; I am just recounting my own experience and saying what personally worked for me. I am so much more content with my life having God by my side than I ever was before. I am no longer "searching" for my meaning in life. I have found it. I live for God. He created me, and I live to fulfill his personal plan for me.

Regarding your other point, about there being far more unhappy people with nothing than rich people with everything, I think it is an issue of population. I'd hazard to guess that there are more under-privilaged people in the world, especially when the impoverished nations are so highly populated. And I don't believe the issue of money has much to do with a person's happiness. If they can't be happy with no money, they can't be happy with a lot of money. As Nelson said, "You choose to be happy. Not me, not God, not your parents - YOU." I completely believe his statement. Happiness is a choice, and shouldn't be determined by your circumstances. Sure, circumstances and possessions can AFFECT your happiness, but they can't CONTROL it. Happiness isn't attained through wealth or an abundance of possessions. Conversely, since possessions don't determine a person's happiness, a lack there of shouldn't determine it either. It doesn't matter if you are rich or poor. You can still choose to be happy.

[celeste]

Originally Posted by Antiventurecapital

It's their problem, not gods?

People choose what they believe. I don't see how we can blame God for our choices, do you?

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by celeste

The point of this paragraph was, that God loves us.

With love like this we don't need an enemy's hate.

You just said above that he doesn't care if you go to hell because you can't believe preposterous tales.

What do you think of Hitler's Final Solution in WW2? He decided to exterminate the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and a few other groups became they weren't behaving in a manner to his liking?

Was it right for Hitler to engage in a genocide?

Take your time.

Here's my next question, how do you feel about the original Final Solution?

You know the one. It's where bible god gets ticked off with humanity because they aren't paying enough attention to him, so he decides to flood the earth and kill every living thing --including puppies, kitties, and panda cubs.

I'm sure you approve of that holocaust because that's what it would have been if it had happened. Thankfully, none of the fairy tales in the bible actually happened.

[Antiventurecapital]

Originally Posted by celeste

People choose what they believe. I don't see how we can blame God for our choices, do you?

Thinking people might be a bit more inclined to believe if a) there was some more evidence than you simply claiming that believing makes you feel all whoosy inside, and 2) if the story wasn't so preposterous.

It's like hearing about a sadistic kid who tries to terrorize an ant farm into worshiping him.

[celeste]