How to talk with people who keep turning notions around?

[bluedragon]

I often have conversations with friends or with my parents about various PD topics, and I've noticed a tendency that some people have. They continuously switch perspective, they bring up generalizations to counter a particular example, then they counter a theory with just one counter-example, they bypass arguments, turn them around, reduce things to naive simplifications...

I noticed that they do this completely unconsciously: they simply don't agree with a certain principle - such as the fact that a person can improve her personality, change careers, etc. That is not what bothers me.

But I feel as if such discussions are completely incoherent, as if we didn't have the same language or words. Sometimes they are very cultivated people, who have read a lot of books, but their verbal maneuvers throw my line of thoughts in disarray. As if I was a Vulcan talking to a romantic poet ... I'm not trying to say that I am the most logical person. To the contrary - I would love someone to come and bring powerful, logical conter-arguments to what I'm saying. Like you guys do here in the forums! What bothers me with some people is they are doing verbal acrobatics, constantly eschewing the point of our discussion and making it appear as if my opinion is completely ridiculous.

Has this happened to you? How can you have a coherent discussion with such a person?

[escapeplan]

Yeah, I totally understand. My view on PD is that it would be better to divide it into two parts. PD in the "real" world and PD where the LOA, spiritual, lenses, etc etc can also be included.

I think if we were all talking from the same world view it would reduce a lot of the games that occur. Absolutely I think those who include the more spiritual aspects have a right to, and would argue it helps in PD. The down side is that it creates an "anything goes" and "that's my perspective" kind of logic that you can't argue with. That doesn't mean they're right!

I'm not saying what the "real" world is because someone is bound to pick me up on this- but at a guess I'd say how we are taught in schools about the way the world works, minus quantum physics and religion! You are right- arguments are fought and discussions made in languages that seem to come from different galaxies!

[ssandra]

It happens to me all the time in my family.

It is very funny, because sometimes my mom and dad are arguing and from the outside I can see that they are actually in agreement with each other. However, because they keep trowing in generalizations to make their point, or to counter the other persons point, they end up arguing.

When I talk to them about discrimination and racism I have it as well. I am trying to make the point that each person should be treated as they are, not as the group they happen to be part of is...

And they counter that with the argument "yes, but when I am standing here on new years and there are 10 boys of that certain group outside, trowing rocks I am not going to be all cuddly and sweet to them"

It is as if I am saying ABC, and they are responding with 432.

How I counter this... well... I tried for a long time to explain myself even more clearly, but it didn't work.

So now I just argue / discuss with them whenever I feel like, and when I don't feel like, I will simply not argue or discuss. And I will tell them so.

It saves me lots of frustration this way. The only reason why I don't leave them alone completely on the subject is because I feel these feelings of discrimination and racism you cannot leave alone. You have to counter that otherwise you are almost as bad as the people who are discriminating or using racism.

[PaulW1956]

A great post bluedragon with some equally good replies. Yes it can be very frustrating, but who are we to judge them they are no more wrong that you or I.

When I'm faced with a similar situation it's a case of, "what am I learning from this situation?"

My take on it is:

We are all on a journey, I like to refer to it as my spiritual journey, and we are all at different stages. Our age is nothing to do with where we are. Somebody younger than I, may be further along their journey and likewise somebody older than me may not have travelled as far.

Regards

Paul

[bluedragon]

Maybe it's important to know when to put an and to a discussion. For example, when the other reduces everything you're trying to say to a naive explanation and starts making fun of it. Right?

[Tanja]

Do they adopt this strategy only when discussing PD topics or they tend to argue that way when it comes to other matters as well?

I don't know how you approach this PD subject and how you explain your point of view, but is it possible that they don't feel it's merely a discussion or exchange of opinions but more of an attempt on your part to ''convince'' them that you are right and they are ''wrong'', so they don't even try to really listen what you're saying but get defensive about it.

However, if that's how they feel, that's how they feel

And I agree with the quote below. If you feel they are making fun of it, then it's no longer a discussion, so you don't have to participate.
The whole thing, at that point, becomes funny to me too, so the whole conversation steers in a new (funny ) direction, which is okay.

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Maybe it's important to know when to put an and to a discussion. For example, when the other reduces everything you're trying to say to a naive explanation and starts making fun of it. Right?

[escapeplan]

And of course, any discussion about PD is on very shaky ground right from the outset.

The whole concept assumes we can improve ourself in the first place. In other words fate has already been ruled out, with a belief we are free to choose our own path.

Further assumptions include things like providing value is an improvement. Tim Hodgkinson could be right when he talks about how to be idle.

Spiritual improvement is assumed, it assumes we are more than physical beings.

Concepts like peace, love and joy are assumed. It's no wonder people have different views.

In fact underneath it all is a belief there is some purpose to us being here.

None of these assumptions have been proven, nor are the assumptions themselves often queried. Most debates revolve around how to attain these improvements, rather than if the assumptions themselves are correct.

Who knows?

[Brutha]

The first step is to accept that other people hold different opinions than you do. Shifting major beliefs about how reality works isn't something that can be accomplished in most discussions.
That's not the point of having a discussion.

See such discussions like a game of chess. You might win, you might lose, but either way it's no big deal.

[ArthurHung]

You can only speak about PD topics directly with certain types of people. If it ain't those people, you don't have to wait for them to be roundabout and joking, but implement PD discussions in a joke format at them.

I do it all the time

Recently Steve Pavlina wrote on his FB wall, something about "What would you do next if you were me?" I replied: Kill myself. And then a joke about Vegan pies with a smilie to tone it down just a tad, so people won't take it the wrong way that I'm suicidal and need "advice".

I wrote that to help people become aware if they have any issues with death, or with their own sense of self-importance or any number of reasons. That's subtle, most people wouldn't notice, like say, a cultured pedagogue. And what is culture anyways? Most people who are so called "cultured" simply are brainwashed individuals who haven't grown much individuality or originality in themselves, and haven't really gone far on the path of personal growth.

So of course they can't really talk about it, you are discussing "serious " issues with them that they try to avoid to even think about.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Brutha

See such discussions like a game of chess. You might win, you might lose, but either way it's no big deal.

That is absolutely true, but these situations are more like you are playing chess... only the other person is playing monopoly

[davidv90]

If the person you're talking to doesn't know what PD is then they probably will not take you seriously. PD is like a language. In order for the other person to understand you, they must be speak the same language or least be open minded.

There was a period when I didn't know what PD is and I probably would look at you crazy if you talk PD with me. "So you say I can change how I think? BS"

[Brutha]

That is absolutely true, but these situations are more like you are playing chess... only the other person is playing monopoly

If they would they wouldn't reach the goal of making bluedragon feel like they "making it appear as if my opinion is completely ridiculous."

[bluedragon]

No, it's right - they are playing monopoly. They want to impose the fact that because of one silly example where something doesn't work, it means PD is BS. Because "The Secret" was a commercial movie for the masses, they say that anybody who talks about creating abundance is a fool who's just trying to get rich. They=lots of people

Another thing that annoys me is when they understand exactly the opposite from every principle. Like yesterday, my mother told me she read through Steve's book which I gave to her, and she thought that he sounds as if he's teaching school children. She understood that creating abundance means that you have to wake up and start reading affirmations or something. I tried explaining that Steve's message is exactly the opposite - that it involves responsibility, personal power, courage, etc... but in vain. To be honest, the moment I picked up his book I knew that's exactly what some people are gonna think! Why couldn't I be wrong?

[cacheborn]

Happens to me all the time. My rule is don't discuss PD in family.

Seriously though, it is very difficult to get across someone whose basic premise is PD is waste of time. They are at a different level of consciousness. I have left forums because of the same problem. PD is just one example, but usually I find that arguing in such cases is sheer waste of time. Better accept them as they are and deal with it.

[Melchior]

The direct approach is not always the best approach. And personally, PD language is quite foreign to me, and it is also largely a waste of time as well.

As for your question, instead of just saying "to each their own" (although sometimes, this is all that I've been able to do... >.<), with the people I've come across, mirroring their own ways of thinking back at them with twists here and there (i.e. talking as they are used to and familiar with), questioning why they think the way they do, being optimistic overall, not forcing anything, but rather allowing them to come to their own conclusions after the exposure of the conversation (and it generally is a conversation, not some argument which will entail resistance on both ends, generally), seems to work all right, but then again, sometimes it doesn't, oh well, it's not a big deal, like what Brutha said, just try again sometime. Also, the conversations don't have to be coherent either, whatever works.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

What bothers me with some people is they are doing verbal acrobatics, constantly eschewing the point of our discussion and making it appear as if my opinion is completely ridiculous.

Your opinion is ridiculous. You wouldn't need to defend it if it weren't, especially against those people that bother you so much. The fact that they can turn your opinion against you to cause this much agitation should tell you something; your opinion has become the hostage that is being used against you. It's not worth defending. Let them tear it apart.

[Donkey1]

Usually what I end up doing is throwing a pillow (or something) at their face and threaten to keep on doing it unless they agree with me. It's an effective method.

[Chris_1977]

"Don't wrestle with a pig. You will both get dirty but the pig will love it."

I would just stop discussing immediately if the discussion partner is not behaving in sensible manners. If they want to interpret that as a victory that is their choice.....

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Your opinion is ridiculous. You wouldn't need to defend it if it weren't, especially against those people that bother you so much. The fact that they can turn your opinion against you to cause this much agitation should tell you something; your opinion has become the hostage that is being used against you. It's not worth defending. Let them tear it apart.

Thank you for this great answer! My opinion is their hostage - that's a great metaphor, I never thought of it this way. Anyway, it's not a problem - it's just that I was thinking I may not be a very effective communicator. But then again, if people dismiss great books by experienced authors, who am I to be worried if my "message" doesn't get through at all.

Originally Posted by Melchior

The direct approach is not always the best approach. And personally, PD language is quite foreign to me, and it is also largely a waste of time as well.

As for your question, instead of just saying "to each their own" (although sometimes, this is all that I've been able to do... >.<), with the people I've come across, mirroring their own ways of thinking back at them with twists here and there (i.e. talking as they are used to and familiar with), questioning why they think the way they do, being optimistic overall, not forcing anything, but rather allowing them to come to their own conclusions after the exposure of the conversation (and it generally is a conversation, not some argument which will entail resistance on both ends, generally), seems to work all right, but then again, sometimes it doesn't, oh well, it's not a big deal, like what Brutha said, just try again sometime. Also, the conversations don't have to be coherent either, whatever works.

Sounds good. I guess it's one of those situations where you need to find balance, and doing too much is as bad as doing too little.

Originally Posted by Chris_1977

"Don't wrestle with a pig. You will both get dirty but the pig will love it."

I would just stop discussing immediately if the discussion partner is not behaving in sensible manners. If they want to interpret that as a victory that is their choice.....

I understand. But I do not want to have to hide my true nature from the people I care about. I don't want to avoid certain subjects just because I am afraid they will be insensible.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

Thank you for this great answer! My opinion is their hostage - that's a great metaphor, I never thought of it this way. Anyway, it's not a problem - it's just that I was thinking I may not be a very effective communicator. But then again, if people dismiss great books by experienced authors, who am I to be worried if my "message" doesn't get through at all.

You're probably a perfectly adequate communicator, and it's just what you are doing with your communication that is failing. A lot of poor results are the consequence of trying to do the wrong thing, not of doing the right thing wrongly. You're using communication in a way that it doesn't work.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

I understand. But I do not want to have to hide my true nature from the people I care about. I don't want to avoid certain subjects just because I am afraid they will be insensible.

I don't think you need to stop expressing an opinion because you expect that others may react to them with arguments that make no sense. Actually, you should express any opinion that you love expressing. If they start objecting you may just say. "Yes, I know that you don't like this idea so very much but I am quite fond of it, so I am going to keep it." As I said earlier, there is no need to get into a discussion. Actually, you do not even need to say that. You can just repeat the original idea for as often as you feel like doing it. They will get tired of shooting it down at some point and probably just think of it as some idiosyncrasy that you have. Like, some people have red hair and Bluedragon has these strange opinions that we cannot cure him of. I think that really is not such a bad position to be in. I think it would be quite funny, actually.

[PerDev]

I believe, This is one area where there is no FIX Solutions.

One solution is "Get used to" or "Get away ASAP", But this is extreme polarized solution.

[Chris_1977]

Originally Posted by PerDev

I believe, This is one area where there is no FIX Solutions.

One solution is "Get used to" or "Get away ASAP", But this is extreme polarized solution.

However, the idea of personal development is to make a consciousness decision what to do. One that both stops emotional drama and is intellectually satisfying. In other words a congruent decision. If one does not do that one has decided not to be consciousness in an area of ones life and this will eat on your power in other areas as well. The only way is to make a conscious and congruent decision or to be on the lookout for such a thing. Saying that there is no solution is actually detrimental.

[bluedragon]

I look at things in a different way: when I have something of value to share, like a book that changed me in a profound way, or a person I listened to on Youtube, I believe telling someone about it is the most precious gift I could ever give. Every time I found something important in my life, it was always because someone else told me something and I listened.

If I brought anyone, and I think literally anyone, a gift that I kindly gave to him, even an insignificant one like a 3-dollar earring or a chocolate candy, I don't think they would say - "go away with your stupid gift", or "you're wrong to go around giving such things to people". I think absolutely anyone would say thank you. Even if they would never use it.

And I wonder if maybe I am not coming through as if I am giving them a gift. Maybe I can tell them this is what I'm doing...

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by bluedragon

And I wonder if maybe I am not coming through as if I am giving them a gift. Maybe I can tell them this is what I'm doing...

Well, how would you respond to a rejected gift? You certainly wouldn't try to force it on them.

[bluedragon]

No, but did you ever see anyone refuse a gift ? I can't even imagine how someone would look like, doing that.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Well, how would you respond to a rejected gift? You certainly wouldn't try to force it on them.

Of course not... But the difference here is that (for example), you give them earrings.

They are than starting to argue with you that earrings are no good, because yesterday they saw on the news that some woman got shot and she was wearing earings!!!

That is more or less the equivalent of trying to deal with these type of people

[rei]

bluedragon, in light of your latest post about seeing it as a gift, i am now wondering if this situation is a type of power struggle or if there is an undercurrent of, 'this is right, it will help you too, so i'd like to offer it whether you want it or not, and if you refuse i would like to show you why it is wrong of you to refuse it.'

i am not intending to judge you for feeling this way because i have been there myself. but i am hoping, if you entertain this possibility and consider the implications, you may come to greater insight and even, perhaps, the sort of detached action that allows for others to maintain a belief system of their choice in spite of our personal (and subjective) perspective on the issue.

[bluedragon]

Originally Posted by rei

bluedragon, in light of your latest post about seeing it as a gift, i am now wondering if this situation is a type of power struggle or if there is an undercurrent of, 'this is right, it will help you too, so i'd like to offer it whether you want it or not, and if you refuse i would like to show you why it is wrong of you to refuse it.'

i am not intending to judge you for feeling this way because i have been there myself. but i am hoping, if you entertain this possibility and consider the implications, you may come to greater insight and even, perhaps, the sort of detached action that allows for others to maintain a belief system of their choice in spite of our personal (and subjective) perspective on the issue.

Well, in a conversation everyone says his point of view, right? I never say more than 1 phrase if I see that the other person is not listening or if she has something to reply. I pay the greatest attention to the other's feedback - I am always addressing precisely his questions or replies, and I am speaking with the other in mind, not to hear myself speak.

A few years ago, I wasn't even capable of participating in discussion involving more than 2 other people, because I couldn't find the opportunity to say anything. I just sat and listened to the others, I could never jump in.

Now I'm much better, but sometimes I still feel as if the other is out to eat me if I say something he doesn't agree with. It really is like a power struggle, but I am the one who wants the least power - I just want a minimal degree of tolerance. I don't want the other to believe me, I just want him not to assume beforehand that what I have to say is stupid, because he saw a movie where a dorky psychologist said the same thing, or because he read a book by I don't know who and it was stupid.

[Brutha]

I look at things in a different way: when I have something of value to share, like a book that changed me in a profound way, or a person I listened to on Youtube, I believe telling someone about it is the most precious gift I could ever give.

Trying to change somebodies opinion against their will isn't something that's seen be people as a gift.

To use the NLP axiom, the meaning of your communication is the response that you get.

You need a bit detachment from outcomes when you really want to have that conversation successfully.
If you are in a mindset where you expect someone to accept your gift

Well, in a conversation everyone says his point of view, right?

No. You need to find a point of leverage in the other point of view.
That might means that you accept for the sake of the argument all sort of assumptions that aren't part of your own view.

If you are for example atheistic and want to convince a Christian about how gratefulness and positive thinking is important you are well advised to to draw on the Christian narrative of being thankful for what God gave you.

However you actually need to be comfortable in your own position to be able to leave it a bit and work with other arguments.
If you hold your own position to tight you have no space to maneuver.