microwave generation?

[aggie]

i understand it is a whole new world out there since i was young and just embarking on life/career....

but the angst and unhappiness i hear from young, intelligent posters that are so down themselves or their state of life or what the future offers them is at once heartbreaking and bafflling.

sometimes things don't happen instantly, sometimes it takes more work than maybe you want to put out for the payoff, sometimes you have hard decisions or choices to make before the next step or option. but be grateful to have options! some people don't.

the world doesn't owe anyone anything....any other opinions or views on this?

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by aggie

the world doesn't owe anyone anything

We don't owe the world anything, either, then.

[aggie]

can you elaborate a little...do you mean if we don't get what we want from the world...we give the world nothing?

i guess, i was coming more from the angle that some very capable young people can be a bit impatient with the world, and not appreciative for what the do have and are capable of achieving.....

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by aggie

can you elaborate a little...do you mean if we don't get what we want from the world...we give the world nothing?

i guess, i was coming more from the angle that some very capable young people can be a bit impatient with the world, and not appreciative for what the do have and are capable of achieving.....

We are largely what your generation taught us to be. If we don't appreciate opportunity, it's because we were not taught that such opportunities were important. Perhaps we were taught to do what was expected of us, rather than what we wanted to do; so even if we do what we want, it's only because we're expected to do what we want and not because we want to. It's not healthy to appreciate life only because you're expected to, but it's not easy to learn another way in a world so full of expectations.

[aggie]

i am talking about people that have opportunity and the choice to make it theirs or not and then complaining because they don't get the degree, THE job, the prestige, the money, the arm candy without some time or effort and patience. but you are right...some parents, the adult world have led some young people to believe that it should all come quickly without much thought or effort.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by aggie

i am talking about people that have opportunity and the choice to make it theirs or not and then complaining because they don't get the degree, THE job, the prestige, the money, the arm candy without some time or effort and patience.

To one degree or another, appearances matter to just about everyone. The people you're talking about may mistake their desire for effort. They construe the tremendous feelings that they are dealing with over the object with actual effort towards obtaining it. Dealing with those feelings is difficult work, and they deserve something for it, right? That may be where they're coming from.

[EddieT]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

To one degree or another, appearances matter to just about everyone. The people you're talking about may mistake their desire for effort. They construe the tremendous feelings that they are dealing with over the object with actual effort towards obtaining it. Dealing with those feelings is difficult work, and they deserve something for it, right? That may be where they're coming from.

Dealing with feelings is not something that provides value to anyone else except the person dealing with the feelings, so no they can't expect to get something for just having feelings.

[aggie]

it is all relative. i come from blue collar, stoic background...you took what life dealt you, made the most of what opportunity presented itself and worked like hell to have a halfway comfortable life for your family.

i came out of that with a work ethic, with more respect for what could be worked for and after some intial whining in my youth realized my opportunities were there for what i could make them. i wasn't going to get by on charm, looks, or my parent's money. i could educate myself the best i could and work for what i had and didn't expect it to all come so quickly because i wanted it sooner. i am still working towards it and as time goes on the chances are fewer and farther between.

but guess what, that is life.

i don't have children but i have a stepson, and my husband taught much of today's youth as a college professor. in my job, among my social circle, in my community i have observed. even on this forum. i am just amazed sometimes at what youth considers "hard".....i don't mean to sound critical...but sometimes one doesn't even realize how much one has.

in this forum, some of the threads are about the state of the world and the economy and its people and the ills that need healing...some of just have to wake up and realize how blessed we are!

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by aggie

the world doesn't owe anyone anything....any other opinions or views on this?

Originally Posted by The Cloud

We are largely what your generation taught us to be. If we don't appreciate opportunity, it's because we were not taught that such opportunities were important. Perhaps we were taught to do what was expected of us, rather than what we wanted to do; so even if we do what we want, it's only because we're expected to do what we want and not because we want to. It's not healthy to appreciate life only because you're expected to, but it's not easy to learn another way in a world so full of expectations.

This is more of the problem. "Oh, we were taught to be this way." No! Wrong! The truth is that people learnt to be this way by observing and by figuring things out.

The truth is that what's missing has been missing for a while, probably for about 50 years now, and what's missing is the teaching of consequence. Because of the blame society we live in now, it's always someone else's fault that everything is the way it is. There's never the need for understanding but just to point fingers. Noone wants fairness or equality, but they want revenge and punishment. It's the quick fix, two minute noodle, one hour dry cleaner society. It's now or never, don't wait, no time world. And it's empty. It's empty of meaning, of values and of exuberance. The result of this is younger people want more than they deserve for less than they contribute.

This all feeds into what aggie is getting at. Noone is shown consequence any more until it's too late. By that time, people are too involved in the blame/excuse cycle that they don't want to break out of it. They think it works, because they think they are getting something for nothing, which is partially true, but they are ripping themselves majorly in their lives, and that's what's making them unhappy. They want more than what they have, but they want it before they deserve it. It's the entitled generation.

(Yes, I'm making gross generalisations. If you don't think you are one of them, check first, then exclude yourself from my generalisation. )

Responsibility is the first step. This is not accepting blame, but recognising that you are able to respond. That's it. Able to Respond: Responsible. Once there, you realise that you aren't a victim. That you are the force, not the result. That the world exists outside of you, as do the situations, but the actions you take are your choice, not someone elses.

Second step is reality. Recognising what's real and what's not. Seeing what works, and what doesn't, for real. Lying doesn't work, blaming doesn't work, complaining doesn't work. All that really works are the actions you take, the relationships you make, and the effort you put into both.

Third step, is anything you want it to be, free of blame, and victimism.

Really, we are blessed to have the opportunity, through our own actions and choice, to change our own life for the better. The circumstances might be crappy, but we can change them, we can make them less crappy, until they are good, great, or even excellent.

The world doesn't owe us anything, but it gives us exactly what we deserve. If you didn't get what you wanted, then you didn't deserve it. Go out there and deserve it.

(ps. This view is self-personalised and doesn't transfer onto other people. In the end, you can't dictate what another person does or does not deserve, so stop judging that. You can only control your own contribution, your willful thinking about someone else is worth nothing.)

[aggie]

thank you for elaborating

mick said it well, also. "you don't always get what you want, but you get what you need

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by EddieT

Dealing with feelings is not something that provides value to anyone else except the person dealing with the feelings, so no they can't expect to get something for just having feelings.

I didn't say it made sense, but that doesn't mean that they can't expect it. Why do people get all worked up over problems? Because they equate being worked up with caring, and if they care then that must mean that they're doing their best to fix the problem. Of course that's not true, but it appears to be. Dealing with feelings gives the illusion of effort so well that it is often confused as such, especially by the person pretending to care.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Parthon

Responsibility is the first step. This is not accepting blame, but recognising that you are able to respond. That's it. Able to Respond: Responsible. Once there, you realise that you aren't a victim. That you are the force, not the result. That the world exists outside of you, as do the situations, but the actions you take are your choice, not someone elses.

Is it? Babies and young children are able to respond; are they responsible? I certainly agree that their is no one to blame, but it doesn't seem to me that anyone's responsible either. Much of what people are is what they are made to be. Accepting responsibility seem to be the acceptance of a power that is not yours.

Do we really make choices? It seems so, but if you think about it you probably don't even have that power, because you can't choose what you want. You can't choose what you like, who you fall in love with, or what you think is beautiful. Your only choice seems to be to choose between doing what you know is right for you or doing something else, which seems like a pretty crappy choice to me. Even in that choice there doesn't seem to be much choice, because who would choose not to do what's right except through the influence of and coercion by other people? How can we be said to be responsible when it seems our choices are made by either our own desires, or our perception of other people's?

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

Is it? Babies and young children are able to respond; are they responsible? I certainly agree that their is no one to blame, but it doesn't seem to me that anyone's responsible either. Much of what people are is what they are made to be. Accepting responsibility seem to be the acceptance of a power that is not yours.

Do we really make choices? It seems so, but if you think about it you probably don't even have that power, because you can't choose what you want. You can't choose what you like, who you fall in love with, or what you think is beautiful. Your only choice seems to be to choose between doing what you know is right for you or doing something else, which seems like a pretty crappy choice to me. Even in that choice there doesn't seem to be much choice, because who would choose not to do what's right except through the influence of and coercion by other people? How can we be said to be responsible when it seems our choices are made by either our own desires, or our perception of other people's?

It's not whether or not our choices are actually choices or not, but what impact that has on our lives. The illusion that we are actually able to choose makes people analyse their choices, rather than just blindly following their desires, or other people's desires.

We may or may not have any free will. Most of what we do is based on impulses or predetermined selections. That's fine, but if you leave the massive life altering choices up to whim, fancy and moment desire then you won't have the life you want. Positive sacrifice, determination and hard work get people to where they want, not choices based on whim.

So, we don't have any real choice, then how can we choose the better life? We can't really, we just convince people they do have a choice, and that they do have responsibility for their lives. We teach them how to set goals and to plan. Then if it works, they go out there and do better compard to if they didn't think they had full responsbility. But then, if what we believe changes what we do, and that changes our moment by moment decisions, would that be will, or not?

In the end, people don't choose the right choice. They choose the easy one, the quick one, the lazy one, the fun one, the nice one. Then they blame the results for those choices on the world. If people really understood the full extent of their own actions, they would know that the easy, quick, lazy, fun, nice choices do not lead to success or happiness. If they understood consequence fully, they wouldn't blame the world or themselves. Their choices, would be wiser, and more in line with what they truely wanted.

So even if free will is an illusion, and choice is just our personal desires, whims and fancies, learning about consequence and the way the world works would benefit people. So even without the honest power to choose, acting with responsibility and without blame still leads to a better life.

And no, animals, babies and children react, they don't respond. Responding comes later in life, with intelligence and wisdom.

[aggie]

there are always going to be things from genetics to someone just being better at something than us in life and all in between that can be beyond our control in life.

that must be accepted.

but to write everything else to chance, or living up to other's expectations and say oh well i am not responsible...that is an irresponsible attitude towards the life given us. it would be unfair to the individual who convinces themselves of such.

we only have to look around at people who have achieved heights some of us can only imagine in the face of extreme adversity, physicial or financial...no that is not serendipity. that is proactive choice.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Parthon

So, we don't have any real choice, then how can we choose the better life? We can't really, we just convince people they do have a choice, and that they do have responsibility for their lives. We teach them how to set goals and to plan. Then if it works, they go out there and do better compard to if they didn't think they had full responsbility. But then, if what we believe changes what we do, and that changes our moment by moment decisions, would that be will, or not?

If we can make no choices, then we can have no responsibility. It's that simple. Either we do have control, and thus responsibility, or we don't. People like to ignore such questions, probably because the answer contradicts most of the pretensions that their lives are built on.

Why would anyone want free will, anyways? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to me, being master of the universe, even if it's just your own tiny selfish universe. Or worse yet, fighting somebody else for mastery of their own universe. Sounds like hard work, and if we have no control then it's futile anyways. Although if we have no choice, we can't stop, either.

Originally Posted by aggie

but to write everything else to chance, or living up to other's expectations and say oh well i am not responsible...that is an irresponsible attitude towards the life given us. it would be unfair to the individual who convinces themselves of such.

we only have to look around at people who have achieved heights some of us can only imagine in the face of extreme adversity, physicial or financial...no that is not serendipity. that is proactive choice.

Is it? Maybe they achieved heights that we can only imagine because they didn't have a choice, because they had to achieve those heights. Can I run a marathon? Physically, I probably could get into good enough shape. But mentally, I have no desire to ever run a marathon. I'm limited, not by ability, but by desire. I can't want it, so I can't do it. Maybe those people that reach such unreachable heights do so because they can have the desire to do so. Otherwise, what's the point in achieving what they don't have the desire to achieve? And desire doesn't seem to be one of those things that we can control, to the chagrin of addicts everywhere.

[EddieT]

If you believe that everything is predetermined by genetics and other outside influences why would you hang out on personal development forums?

The whole concept of personal development centers around people being able to make their own choices

[Apollia]

Originally Posted by Parthon

They want more than what they have, but they want it before they deserve it. It's the entitled generation.

Speaking of entitled young people - why exactly do people arbitrarily consider babies to be more "deserving" of good treatment than adults? What have babies ever done to earn, deserve, and be entitled to the good treatment they get?

Babies are irresponsible, moochers, and the epitome of the disgusting attitude of unearned entitlement. They also blame everything on external factors, and constantly play the victim, as evinced by their pathetic whining and crying if anything at all happens that they dislike. They use their every little selfish whim that goes unfulfilled as an excuse to throw a pity party.

Yet, for some reason, adults who do essentially the same thing are given unequal treatment.

It's ageism, I tell you!

In the interest of fairness, I say, either we should stop giving babies unearned special treatment, or we should start giving adults respect/good treatment equal to that of babies.


Disclaimer: The above was (of course) partly a joke. I love babies, and am not seriously picking on them, nor would I ever seriously advocate that people stop giving babies the unearned special treatment they get. I would much rather advocate unearned special treatment for everyone.

To me, it seems very arbitrary to postulate that people have to "earn" and "deserve" any good things. Why not instead arbitrarily regard all people as universally entitled to good things, good treatment, and many of the things they want - as long as them getting those things doesn't involve any infringement on others' rights, freedom, etc.?

I wonder what would happen to the world if everyone treated everyone else as lovingly and kindly as most people treat babies. Would it lead to the end of civilization?

Best wishes,
Apollia

[SomeRandomGuy]

I definitely agree with what the OP is talking about here. I will be turning 30 next month, so I'm not entirely sure if I'm part of the generation being discussed here or not. Regardless, I see a lot of this behavior in others my age, including my friends.

I see that a lot of people from my generation are unwilling to take full responsibility for their actions and choices. I see that too many have a sense of entitlement, and don't feel like they should have to work hard. It seems that many expect instant results, and just give up when they don't get what they want right away.

Obviously those things are generalizations, but I've seen them over and over. Even in one of my closest friends I see this. She is 30, has been married for several years, has a child and is trying for another. She is definitely an adult, but I don't feel like she's completely grown up. Her and her husband both still drive cars given to them by their parents. Her parents even still give her money from time to time. Their lifestyle is built on having fun, and it appears that there is no real direction. I've talked to her about it, I know she doesn't have a 5 or 10 year plan. Perhaps the worst part is that my friend and her husband are some of the more responsible people I know from my age group. They are both very intelligent, and highly capable.

I can only hope that this trend reverses, and future generations are more self-reliant, willing to take responsibility and have a strong work ethic. People complain about the US moving towards socialism, but that should be no surprise when we have so many people who expect the government to take care of and protect them. We can't expect the current generation to take back the government, they are too buy letting the government take care of them.

[aggie]

i am not "hanging out" on this forum.

i said there are many things including genetics and outside influences that can cause us to simply accept we are not going to do things in life...regardless of "desire".....

to use extreme examples a person with muscular dystrophy is probably not going to be a world class athelete. a person with down's syndrome is not going to end up on wall street. on a lesser scale, some people who are quite educated and capable are going to lose out on opportunities or jobs because someone else is simply smarter, or more qualified, or maybe luckier on that day.

yes, it is about desire. BUT one also has to be realisitc about one's goals and desires and if it is in fact an achievable desire than one has to CHOOSE to go after it or be couch potato and go whoa is me and do something that does not take as much time and work or go after it.

and if the desire isn't there...so what? that is your deal, not anyone's else's expectation of you.

[EddieT]

While it does seem the younger generation has more of a sense of entitlement I'm not sure this is entirely true, when I was younger I was probably just as bad with this sort of thing as anyone. Fortunately I've mostly grown out of this attitude but I still see it in people much older than myself.

I think most young people will grow out of it and those that don't will pretty much be in the same sort of life as those older people that keep the same attitude and don't take responsibility for their own lives.

[EddieT]

Originally Posted by aggie

i am not "hanging out" on this forum.

i said there are many things including genetics and outside influences that can cause us to simply accept we are not going to do things in life...regardless of "desire".....

to use extreme examples a person with muscular dystrophy is probably not going to be a world class athelete. a person with down's syndrome is not going to end up on wall street. on a lesser scale, some people who are quite educated and capable are going to lose out on opportunities or jobs because someone else is simply smarter, or more qualified, or maybe luckier on that day.

yes, it is about desire. BUT one also has to be realisitc about one's goals and desires and if it is in fact an achievable desire than one has to CHOOSE to go after it or be couch potato and go whoa is me and do something that does not take as much time and work or go after it.

and if the desire isn't there...so what? that is your deal, not anyone's else's expectation of you.

Just to clarify, my earlier comments were directed more at the people that seem to think that external influences are the only things that affect their lives and don't seem to believe that free choice exists, in which case the whole personal development thing is kind of pointless.

There are factors that will limit people in what they are capable of but I believe almost everyone has the potential to improve their own life if they choose to.

I think we are in agreeing on this issue aggie, but perhaps I'm not putting my points across as well as possible

[YourHumbleNarrator]

Originally Posted by aggie

i am talking about people that have opportunity and the choice to make it theirs or not and then complaining because they don't get the degree, THE job, the prestige, the money, the arm candy without some time or effort and patience. but you are right...some parents, the adult world have led some young people to believe that it should all come quickly without much thought or effort.

This is how they (my parents, church mates, family friends, etc.) tried to sell me on college. If I went, supposedly I'd have a guarantee of material success and I'd land a high-paying job as soon as I was done. If I didn't, I'd spend every day cleaning the grease off McDonald's floors with my tongue. Fear/Hardship/Ease- "If you don't do this you'll be miserable." "It'll be hard going at the start. You'll have to hit the books and apply yourself like you never have before." "Everything you could possibly think of will be yours."

Similar beliefs surround every aspect of our culture from our entertainment to our education. My generation's unrealistic expectations have largely to do with being sheltered from reality for 18+ years of our lives (school is not real life and every moment spent within its walls takes away an opportunity to do something useful), being raised by materialistic people with no sense of responsibility and consequence, and the belief that we can be great just because of where we've come from. That's the basis of false self-esteem: you are magnificent whether or not you've done anything to make yourself valuable. Many have been told something like that all their lives and deep down they know it's a crock of bull, yet having never developed confidence they cling to it in the hope that somehow it will prove true.

I know what I've said might sound cynical and victim-like at first glance, but I only realized what I was really being taught (or at least what I was getting from it) when I decided that I was going to take complete responsibility for my life. I think many within my generation are going through the culture shock which comes from realizing that what they've been taught has little basis on reality and they have to forge their own way in life. They will, in time. The only ones who stay trapped are the ones who fail to acknowledge that, beyond a certain point in their development, everything they complain about they are doing to themselves.

[aggie]

i don't know how much longer thread will knock around...but i appreciate the feedback.

regardless of what some people come to this forum thinking or believing...visiting here is the first stop for all of us to realize we may need an ear, some advice, to be encouraged that we do have the opportunity to grow and change and learn and not be victims of life.

and some of the wiser ones are here to guide us along the way.

i know i have benefitted from the exhanges and learned from observation of others.

[Apollia]

OK, now for a more serious post than my previous one.

Originally Posted by aggie

isometimes things don't happen instantly, sometimes it takes more work than maybe you want to put out for the payoff, sometimes you have hard decisions or choices to make before the next step or option. but be grateful to have options! some people don't.

I agree with this. Many things in the world are quite dissatisfying at this time, but defeatism never helped anyone.

There is cause for some optimism, at least. Compared to earlier times in history, many things are much better than they used to be. For example, even many relatively poor people have more resources and luxuries available to them than the kings of centuries ago, thanks to technology.

Not sure what else to say. Sorry I couldn't think of anything more interesting to contribute, and sorry if I annoyed anyone by being a little cheeky earlier.

Best wishes,
Apollia

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

If we can make no choices, then we can have no responsibility. It's that simple. Either we do have control, and thus responsibility, or we don't. People like to ignore such questions, probably because the answer contradicts most of the pretensions that their lives are built on.

It's also possible to have no free will, no real choice and still believe in free will. If you take actions based on that belief, you will get appropriate results. If the results of the belief of free will is setting goals that get achieved, and making plans that work out, then it's a good belief to have. If the belief of free will makes your life better, then do we drop it because it's not true, or do we keep it because it's good.

Why would anyone want free will, anyways? Seems like an awful lot of trouble to me, being master of the universe, even if it's just your own tiny selfish universe. Or worse yet, fighting somebody else for mastery of their own universe. Sounds like hard work, and if we have no control then it's futile anyways. Although if we have no choice, we can't stop, either.

To live a better life, that's all.

Proving free will is much like proving god, just too darn hard. So if we can't prove it one way or another, what should we aim for instead?

[aggie]

to apollia
speaking for myself, no offense taken

you followed up with a good point.

i do agree that there are certain inalienable rights.

but i don't believe in carte blanche entitlement to everything in life...some things, i still believed must be worked for or maybe not the best word "earned"...and let's face it, again it is about choice.

some people that choose to have it all on a scale of material or celebrity for examples...make some sacrifices in their lives....which become pretty self evident...again the dilemma of chosen desires.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by EddieT

If you believe that everything is predetermined by genetics and other outside influences why would you hang out on personal development forums?

Obviously because I don't have a choice .

Originally Posted by Parthon

If you take actions based on that belief, you will get appropriate results.

If you act on a belief that isn't true, and you achieve true results, it wasn't the belief that achieved them for you. False =/= True. Perhaps you are mistaking correlation for causation.

Originally Posted by Parthon

Proving free will is much like proving god, just too darn hard. So if we can't prove it one way or another, what should we aim for instead?

Certainly not a lie. External factors dictate our lives. If somebody throws a ball at your face and you see it, then you have to act even if only to ignore it. Knowledge of the ball dictates that necessity; you have no choice but to act with regard to the ball.

For that matter, the ball you see is signals bouncing around in your brain much like the ball bouncing around outside it. So even your brain is another ball that you have to react to. But if your brain is part of the external environment, then where do you come in?

It's easy to say free will is real. It's a very popular opinion. That doesn't mean it's right, or even good. Just good enough, at least until it isn't. Ironically, it is freedom that creates slavery, for without the first the second would have no reference point.

[Parthon]

Originally Posted by The Cloud

If you act on a belief that isn't true, and you achieve true results, it wasn't the belief that achieved them for you. False =/= True. Perhaps you are mistaking correlation for causation.

It's not the belief, but the actions. The habits of goal setting and planning implies a certain degree of control over one's actions, and those that set goals and go after then are more successful than those that don't.

If you act on a belief that isn't true, and you get true results, then is the belief still false? Just like you said, False =/= True, so in the presense of true results from a false belief, which part is true and which part is false? There's a direct correlation between people who set goals, and people who achieve goals, or would that be direct causation? Perhaps in the end there's no such thing as causation, everything is just happenstance correlation.

Then the final question would be: What beliefs, not containing free will or choice, cause success? I can't think of any.

[The Cloud]

Originally Posted by Parthon

It's not the belief, but the actions.

Perhaps actions are not directly dependent on beliefs, and don't need them. A lever doesn't need belief to do work; perhaps humans are complicated levers? We don't really need free will to work; even if our lives are completely predetermined, we can't possibly know how since knowledge of the future feeds back into the present, changing the future. The difference between an unknown predetermined future and a choice determined future is pretty academic.

[Parthon]

Not all actions are based on beliefs, but some are, which means how a person's life unfolds, based on their actions is at least partially based on their beliefs.

I sometimes like to entertain the idea that we are nothing more than complicated machines in a deterministic universe. The two questions in that case are: What happens if you put "free will" in the machine, what comes out the other end? Also, what can you put in and have success come out?