Success vs genetics

[Robou]

I've started this thread because of a recent post on another thread entitled "does luck have anything to do with success". A recent poster suggests that genetics plays a large roll in determining how far we can go and develope in life vs a persons ability to develope qualities of success that they don't seem to naturally (genetically) have like strong drive, discipline and good work ethic.
So my question is---- how many people believe that their genetics are the biggest pre determinant of their success in life? I know success is different things for different people so I'm refering to all types of success and accomplishment, from training yourself to get out of bed earlier to deciding to go back to school and get a degree. How many people think that genetics sets the boundaries for accomplishment within any one individual?
I'm very interested in hearing opinions on this subject!

[SmartAlx]

My point wasn't just about genetics, it was about everything within luck's sphere of influence. Nurture AND Nature, neither of which you have any control over.

Thanks for asking though. I'll be interested to hear everyone's opinions on this.

[aelle]

I don't think genetics matter all that much. The influence of "birth" in the old fashion sense is much greater than genetics. You are born within a society that has certain expectations about your race and gender. You are born within a social class. You may be born with a nobility title. You are quickly given a citizenship, and later a mother tongue.

All of these are outside of our influence but matter a whole lot more than our genetic package stricto sensu.

Even when it comes to very important genetic factors, such as handicaps, I tend to think that your class and citizenship matters more than your handicap. For a given handicap, your parents's wealth, education and access to social support could actually mean the difference between dying in infancy and getting to live.

[SmartAlx]

aelle, I would put what you wrote about under nurture. We still don't have any control over it.

[Remiel]

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that there is only the fixed, unchangeable person we were born to be and nothing else? There is no free will?

Isn't there a matter of genetics, things such as talents and giftings, as well as things like Birth order, as well as the things we choose to be?

[aelle]

Oh no no no. Birth circumstances, for lack of a better word, have more influence than genetics, but free will trumps them all.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by aelle

Oh no no no. Birth circumstances, for lack of a better word, have more influence than genetics, but free will trumps them all.

Does Genetics (or talents if you will) determine what we can be wildly successful at?

[Andrew Gubb]

You should check out the book "The Biology of Belief" by Bruce Lipton. In it, he describes how he found out through his scientific research that genes don't determine how you are. Genes are the "CDs" which you can play, but it is your choice which you do play.

I also believe that your past lives and age as a soul are much more determinant of what you are really going to be able to achieve in this life.

I've noticed that so many things that I appeared to have picked up from my home environment, to go off on a bit of a tangent, have come from past lives (what I know of them). I rejected masculine energy because I was so used to (I suppose identified with) being a woman in other lives, and I was born into a family where I had a father who gave me ample excuse to hate him and served as a terrible role model for masculine energy. So? I think we vibrate in a certain way, and end up in an environment which reflects that. Could be the same for your genes even. But if you change your vibration, your environment changes.

[Remiel]

Yet, how do we explain things like the Strengths Finder test?

To give a brief example: During college I had 1 project that drew 100% of what I am capable of doing out of me. I finished a 6 man group project that wasn't due for a month in 3 days. Start to finish. The moment the professor gave us the assignment it just clicked with me and my mind didn't stop for 3 days. A couple of years later I took the strengths finder 2.0 test and found out that all of my top 5 talents listed perfectly matched what I did to solve the problem during school. Even today I can see how accurately my talents still fit me. How does something like Strengths Finder 2.0 work if everything is simply chosen by us? How are some people blessed with extraordinary physical ability while others can dance around them in all things math and science? How are some people literary genius and others don't know how to write a paragraph of a story?

Is there really nothing at all about us that is fixed and unchanging?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Yet, how do we explain things like the Strengths Finder test?

To give a brief example: During college I had 1 project that drew 100% of what I am capable of doing out of me.

We are like race cars. A race car built better than another and driven by the better driver will (generally) win the race. Does the race car itself get to decide if it's going to be designed well? No, it's up to the driver and the crew. The driver and crew in our case are genetics, talents, and circumstances that turn us into the people we do turn into.

Luck often works contrary to who we are though. Bad people become successful, not because they have something inside of themselves that alllows them to be successful. They just got lucky. Good people sometimes fail. Does that mean that what is inside of them is corrupted? Not at all. It just means that circumstances didn't allow for their inner light to shine. It's like a well designed race car being at the wrong place at the wrong time in the race. A different racer could crash and cut a great car's race short.

A couple of years later I took the strengths finder 2.0 test and found out that all of my top 5 talents listed perfectly matched what I did to solve the problem during school. Even today I can see how accurately my talents still fit me. How does something like Strengths Finder 2.0 work if everything is simply chosen by us?

Are you saying that we all get to decide which talents we have? That people somehow decide to be great mathematicians, or great athletes? I don't think it works that way. Why do we have to get to decide our talents for the Strengths Finder to work?

You give your free will too much credit. And you disregard luck. What would have happened in those 3 days if you had gotten a cold? Could you have achieved what you did while you were sneezing and coughing and drowsy from all of the Nyquil? Do we get to choose when we get a cold? Sure we can boost our immune system, but that only works so much.

How are some people blessed with extraordinary physical ability while others can dance around them in all things math and science?

Uh... genetics. Not everyone's talents match so well with their personality.

Is there really nothing at all about us that is fixed and unchanging?

Not really. We all evolve over time. It might take 50 years for you to change, but you do change over time.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

So if I'm hearing you correctly, you are saying that there is only the fixed, unchangeable person we were born to be and nothing else? There is no free will?

Isn't there a matter of genetics, things such as talents and giftings, as well as things like Birth order, as well as the things we choose to be?

I'll reply with a quote to the other thread.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

I actually do believe in free will (otherwise it would be extremely difficult for me to believe in a just God). I actually equate free will to goodness. Everyone's free will is there, but limited. In very simplistic terms, actions that enable other people to have free will are good. Actions that overall (long term) limit other people's free will are bad.

So free will is there, it's just limited by internal (genetic) and outside (luck, other people) influences.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

So free will is there, it's just limited by internal (genetic) and outside (luck, other people) influences.

So if you fail then it is not your fault? It was merely external circumstances?

Thinking about it, I almost would have to say I agree with you for the average person. The question then is can one choose to exercise a larger role via free will if one chooses to?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

So if you fail then it is not your fault? It was merely external circumstances?

It could be your fault. But it could also be the fault of external circumstances. You know what? I'm thinking that free will is actually just willingness and desire. It's a simple decision. Your blame would only be in making the right or wrong decision. But many of the decisions you make would be a result of things outside of your control. Perhaps success requires that you have a specific knowledge or training that you forgot because you have been focused on other things for so long. Maybe you failed because your physical strength isn't enough to succeed. Is that your fault? Really? You could say that you should have been more diligent about your exercise and worked out a bit more, but when does it end? How do you know when you have worked out enough? You can't be expected to be prepared for every situation.

Thinking about it, I almost would have to say I agree with you for the average person. The question then is can one choose to exercise a larger role via free will if one chooses to?

If one is ABLE to. Everyone's free will is at the whim of outside influences. Did Jews in WWII possess the free will to be famous scientists? No. They were too busy trying to stay alive. In this extreme example evil limited the Jews' free will.

Likewise this could happen if you are the only person able to pick up your friend at the airport at a particular time. Let's say you have a very important meeting at work that you can't leave. You don't have the free will to leave that meeting, do you? Then if you finally leave the meeting with barely enough time to get to the airport, and one person cuts you off in traffic and stops in the right lane at a red light you want to turn right at, you might be late to pick them up. Because of that extra minute waiting at that traffic light you could end up not crossing the railroad tracks in time to beat the train. Now instead of being one minute late, you are 5 minutes late. Then because of that 5 minutes you might be behind a major traffic accident instead of in front of it. Now you are 60 minutes late. You did your best to get to the airport on time, but circumstances outside of your control caused you to be late.

How many times have you said, "if only?"

[Iggy K]

Thats bulls*it,my dad is a loser and a drunk and my mom who is a fantastic person is just a bit more productive and driven than my dog. Which I love.
So that means I was swaped at the hospital?
Cuz I have nothing in common with them on any field.
Except my dads nose

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Likewise this could happen if you are the only person able to pick up your friend at the airport at a particular time. Let's say you have a very important meeting at work that you can't leave. You don't have the free will to leave that meeting, do you? Then if you finally leave the meeting with barely enough time to get to the airport, and one person cuts you off in traffic and stops in the right lane at a red light you want to turn right at, you might be late to pick them up. Because of that extra minute waiting at that traffic light you could end up not crossing the railroad tracks in time to beat the train. Now instead of being one minute late, you are 5 minutes late. Then because of that 5 minutes you might be behind a major traffic accident instead of in front of it. Now you are 60 minutes late. You did your best to get to the airport on time, but circumstances outside of your control caused you to be late.

Don't you? Can't you 1. Leave regardless of the state of the meeting or 2. Have an up front agreement that you have to leave the meeting at a specific time or 3. Have an agreement with your friend that you are stuck in the meeting until you are finished with it and then will pick him up? Surely there is more than one option to doing this than simply saying life is how life is and there is nothing I can do to change it?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If one is ABLE to. Everyone's free will is at the whim of outside influences. Did Jews in WWII possess the free will to be famous scientists? No. They were too busy trying to stay alive. In this extreme example evil limited the Jews' free will.

Have you heard of Victor Frankl?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

How many times have you said, "if only?"

If only, what?

[SmartAlx]

Each of us are blessed with different influences.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Each of us are blessed with different influences.

Very well could be true. I don't know. Yet, for me, that sort of predestined type thinking is... well... boring. I chose to live my life in accordance with nothing external, only true to my internal self. If that is a false choice then so be it. Either way I'll have fun believing that my choices do indeed make a significant impact on my life.

It's been a pleasure talking with you SmartAlx

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Don't you? Can't you 1. Leave regardless of the state of the meeting or 2. Have an up front agreement that you have to leave the meeting at a specific time or 3. Have an agreement with your friend that you are stuck in the meeting until you are finished with it and then will pick him up? Surely there is more than one option to doing this than simply saying life is how life is and there is nothing I can do to change it?

Possibly, but what if you can't? What if this multi-million dollar deal depends upon your presence? What if you are the only person who can pick your friend up and he can't get a cab because there is a cab strike or there is a big convention in town or whatnot.
(Keep in mind that this is an example. Don't get bogged down on the details. There are better examples and my poor example doesn't nullify my argument. Understand the meaning behind the example. Don't focus on the details of the example itself.)

Have you heard of Victor Frankl?

Nope.

If only, what?

If only this thing happened. If only that person didn't cut me off. If only I was at the house 5 minutes early. If only I had gotten gas last night.

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Very well could be true...

...It's been a pleasure talking with you SmartAlx

Same here, although I was actually replying to Iggy K's post.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Same here, although I was actually replying to Iggy K's post.

Well I sure look like an idiot now.

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Possibly, but what if you can't? What if this multi-million dollar deal depends upon your presence? What if you are the only person who can pick your friend up and he can't get a cab because there is a cab strike or there is a big convention in town or whatnot.
(Keep in mind that this is an example. Don't get bogged down on the details. There are better examples and my poor example doesn't nullify my argument. Understand the meaning behind the example. Don't focus on the details of the example itself.)

Couldn't it be said that you put yourself into that situation by means of your choices? No matter how far back you go you had a choice that led you to the circumstances of that scenario, did you not? I'm not saying that the consequences of a different choice are better or worse, just that there is still a choice to be made. I have a friend who is very precise with everyone he meets. He has clear up front agreements with all of his clients, with all the people he works with, and even with all the people he spends time with. This guy works on multi-million dollar deals and even in the midst of it all remains in complete control. When life changes around him he is quick to adapt. Even then, I have seen him turn down meetings where he is the important figure because he had a prior agreement with a friend, a family member or some other important thing in his life. Do we still not have the choice to choose what is more important to us? Couldn't we have said no to that meeting because we knew our friend was flying into town?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

Nope.

He was the psychologist that lived through the Nazi imprisonment camps. What he found was that even in the midst of a world where there was no external choice, there is always an internal choice. Could he be right?

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

If only this thing happened. If only that person didn't cut me off. If only I was at the house 5 minutes early. If only I had gotten gas last night.

Why would I want to ask that question?

[SmartAlx]

Originally Posted by Remiel

Couldn't it be said that you put yourself into that situation by means of your choices?...

...Couldn't we have said no to that meeting because we knew our friend was flying into town?

I said don't get mired in the details. It's an example. Defeating the example doesn't defeat the point.

Why would I want to ask that question?

We all do. We are told by the new age thinking that it's bad, but you can't learn from your negative experiences if you don't seek out the answer to questions like that one.

[Remiel]

Originally Posted by SmartAlx

We all do. We are told by the new age thinking that it's bad, but you can't learn from your negative experiences if you don't seek out the answer to questions like that one.

Do you ask yourself that question often?

[Robou]

If everything is predestined and decided and there's so little of the world that we can actually effect including supposedly ourselves why do we have to bother with learning from our negative experiences?... Supposedly we have no influence to travel a different path other than the one that has been pre determined for us so what is the value in learning from the negative?..... People only do that when they want to grow beyond what they are but if our path is set and growth is a part of our destiny then we'll arrive there regardless right?....

[Talkofthatown919]

i believe that genetics have nothing to do with success in life. If you are not born with it you can accquire it plain and simple.

[Brutha]

A few separate thoughts:

You can make a fault and succeed because you made a fault and wouldn't have succeeded if you hadn't made a fault and at the same time you make no fault and don't succeed.

Let's say you have a way to bet 2000$ and have a 50% chance of getting 10000$ in return.
That's a good bet. Accepting the bet isn't a fault, regardless of whether you in the end succeed and get the 10000$ or fail and lose your 2000$.
Whether a decision is good or bad depends on the information that's available when it's made.

Bill Gates got the contract with IBM that created Microsoft's empire through contacts that his mom had.

Röngten found his x-ray in an accident.

There also a question of what you mean with the term success.
If Ralph Nader would have succeeded with his proposals about air plane safety in the 90's he would have had success in preventing 9/11.
On the other hand nobody would have thanked him and American would have still disliked him.

He was the psychologist that lived through the Nazi imprisonment camps. What he found was that even in the midst of a world where there was no external choice, there is always an internal choice. Could he be right?

But this thread was the whole time about external choice.
The internal choice is in this case is about whether you feel bad about not picking up your friend or whether you feel good about making the business deal.

Frankl wrote that those people who followed good moral principles when it comes to their external choices died early on in the concentration camps.