Are we really better off as we are than as we were?

[hawkal]

Thousands of years ago we homo sapiens used to roam the earth as hunter gatherers. We hunted we ate, we slept we reproduced. The basic instincts of human survival.

Now 50 odd thousand years later we have all this ♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥♥ to complicate life and try to make it out to be something it isn't usually because someone is trying to screw you over so they can line their pockets with "money" because it has been engrained into the human mind that we should all aim for prosperity and that the best way is to capitalise on an idea which usually involves selling the idea or end product to other people.

So are we really better off now? I wonder...

[Smarky]

I've just come back from a music festival.

The way this works is for five days 65,000 people are camped together in a field from all over the country, three days have a range of bands playing.

You don't have any modern gadgets, no showers, no hot water, just you, a tent, a field, other people and music.

It's amazing how much people get on, these people are the greatest and most friendly people you will ever meet, complete random strangers looking after each other, doing crazy things, having fun. Because you have nothing else to do and you have no choice but too do that.

A few days in, you suddenly stop caring about how you look, cause you can't do anything about it and you go beyond being self conscious like you would normally do, because nobody cares. When I got back home on the train and had to walk from the station to my house, through the main city, suddenly i started realizing and feeling insecure and that i looked like crap!

it's a very interesting experience!

[hawkal]

<off topic>Wait it wasn't Download festival was it?</off topic>

[spirit4711]

Yes we are definitely better off than our ancestors:
- longer lifespans
- better health
- better education
- cheaper travel
- more culture (music, art, etc)

If you want to live like a savage, please don't let me stop you.

It's not all a bed of roses but it sure wasn't so 5000 years or so ago:
- diseases and infections that killed you
- slavery
- no machines. Farming was manual labour, mostly.
- no education except for the rich or the priests
- travel? well hardly more than 10 km for most people.

Give me the present any time.

[hawkal]

Originally Posted by spirit4711

Yes we are definitely better off than our ancestors:
- longer lifespans
- better health
- better education
- cheaper travel
- more culture (music, art, etc)

If you want to live like a savage, please don't let me stop you.

It's not all a bed of roses but it sure wasn't so 5000 years or so ago:
- diseases and infections that killed you
- slavery
- no machines. Farming was manual labour, mostly.
- no education except for the rich or the priests
- travel? well hardly more than 10 km for most people.

Give me the present any time.

No I am talking about the time when we humans hadn't evolved enough to try to control our fellow man. When life was simple, communication was basic.

So what if we live longer how many people do you know use it to it's full advantage to experience life to the fullest. I don't know any at all (in person). It's about quality not quantity.

Better health I would also dispute. Most health issues humans become subject to are usually due to stress that is usually triggered irrationally because of the social conditionings of modern life.

Of the other 3 points I would say they aren't necessary when life is simple as a hunter gatherer.

[Smarky]

Originally Posted by hawkal

<off topic>Wait it wasn't Download festival was it?</off topic>

Heck yea it was

[veranadine]

My answer to the question in obviously NO.

I used to dream of, almost long for, returning to the past. I used to dream if the 17th and 18th centuries as if they were the perfect vision of paradise, rustic and simple but not completely wild, with humans who were aware of self but not obsessed with it.

Then I realized that I have already lived in those times, in my past lives, and that constantly longing for the "simpler" past was distracting me from living my life now. I was depressed by what I remembered and could not possibly achieve in this life.

My guides helped me to see that all of this memory was to empower me to build a life that mixes the best of the past with the best of the present, in order to create an optimum future.

So I now make much of what I could buy, I spend more time in nature, I work, eat and live closer to nature. Yet I am not living in a bubble, I am able to take what I see a benefit in from the modern technological world and use it to my advantage, while refusing to give energy, time or money to those things that I see as detrimental.

The book that I am currently channeling looks at how we came from there to here and the energy push that is slowly helping us as a species to transition back to more authentic, nature-based lifestyles.

I feel that we are headed in the right direction for a re-balancing, so long as those of us who have awareness actually live by it and set that positive, balanced example for others.

[Smarky]

To be honest I think there is a lot of truth in this. I think we have lost our human side amongst all the drama and the stuff we have to worry about these days and all he technology etc.

It all has it's uses, that's why we have it and we wouldn't have it if there was not a benefit. The trouble is, now we have such stuff, we make it control our lives and lose our basic humanity.

An example of this is text messaging, IM, email etc, it's great cause we can keep in contact with each other, but it's desensitizing us from real social human interaction, we need to find the balance and far to much it becomes a crutch.

[RaymondArotin]

Hi Hawkal,

I think that we all get frustrated by the way our world is run at times, but I honestly believe that as time goes on, we as human beings will only evolve into better, kinder, smarter, and more peaceful people. It will take some time, though.

I definitely wouldn't want to give up my intellect and technology for a more "natural" life of killing, fighting, scrounging, and basic surviving. Besides, if we did revert back to that... we would just grow again, like a weed! We would eventually re-invent tools to make things easier, we would discover better and easier ways to hunt, gather, fish, protect ourselves, we would re-invent a system of government and money to simplfy life. Human want to grow. I don't think it can be stopped.

I think the main question here is... Are we as a human race moving in the right direction? Many years ago, someone invented the system of "money" to make life easier... yet along with that came competition, taxes, child labor, a low minimum wage that's barely able to let someone survive, a class system, the under-privledged being servants to their "higher ups", stressful board meetings, corrupt corporations... the list goes on and on.

I believe that someday, far in the future, we will look upon all this money and competition as foolish and we will develope a new system of living that is more in harmony with the planet Earth and it's natural resources... but still we will continue to develop new and amazing technology to help us as humans live better lives. There's a website called... The Venus Project that talks about some of this. It's very interesting.

Hope this helps... or at least furthers the discussion in a positive way!

[KazeCraven]

If you've ever read anything by Daniel Quinn, you'd know that our ancestors before the Agricultural Revolution definitely had it easier. I wouldn't call it better though, because while they had it easier, they had much less control of their lives, and had no way of "assuring their survival" like we do.

Each age has its beauty, and each age has its savage, brutal side. I don't think I'd mind any age really. It's all lovely, and each age before us has its romanticizations. I'm sure if you look for it though, you could find an uninhabited place to try living as a hunter/gatherer. Just be warned that mortality rates out there are much higher, especially for us 'non-savages' who grew up soft and sheltered.

Actually, I take that back. I like being able to look back at all the ages and ponder about this stuff. I was about to say how wonderful it would be to sit around and ponder the mysteries of the universe, but we've got all of the afterlife to do that.

(Be warned if you start reading books by Daniel Quinn. He's one of those crazy folk that rationalizes letting the starving millions in Africa starve!)

[hawkal]

One of the stark contrasts between today and the past is the collective meaning of the word "freedom". Millions of people have died to preserve the value that it represents and yet every year the word seems to get devalued by governments trying to control their people instead of listen and lead them.

Just down the road from here this woman built a house and wanted to put a fence around it. The fence would of been 6 foot high. The local council said she had to use the horrible nasty looking fencing when she wanted to use nice quality fencing. Still years later there isn't a fence there.

There is the one about the reclusive man who lived in the middle of no where and he wanted (and started) to build a wall for his property but someone had to get the local council involved.

There is the one about the famous hacker (I don't remember his name) who when caught by police was told that if he didn't sign away some of his constitutional rights he would be put in solitary confinement.

They are not the best examples and I am sure you can think of other ones but they still get the point across.

[aggie]

well, i think we are obviously better off in some ways...the freedoms we have without being drawn and quartered, flushing toilets and running water...but i think with all we have to be grateful...some have become so jaded with life...where is the next high or fix coming from and i am not just talking drugs or sex...sometimes it is the next deal, the next scam, the next conquer, the next tyranny....i don't know...in some ways we are still as barbaric as we ever were just in a more modern way, we use up, we spit out, we don't always give back, we stomp on the helpless.....i think it is all about desensitation.....just my opinion.....

[spirit4711]

Originally Posted by hawkal

No I am talking about the time when we humans hadn't evolved enough to try to control our fellow man. When life was simple, communication was basic.
...

There never was such a time. Humans are group animals, and in groups members always try to control.

A good comparison is a monkey colony. Hierarchies, the stronger dominating the weaker, it's all there.

I think you're reaching for an idealized version of the past.

The great thing about humans is that they can become aware of their control urges, and decide to let go of that. Live by example and it will have impact.

[Smarky]

Originally Posted by aggie

well, i think we are obviously better off in some ways...the freedoms we have without being drawn and quartered, flushing toilets and running water...but i think with all we have to be grateful...some have become so jaded with life...where is the next high or fix coming from and i am not just talking drugs or sex...sometimes it is the next deal, the next scam, the next conquer, the next tyranny....i don't know...in some ways we are still as barbaric as we ever were just in a more modern way, we use up, we spit out, we don't always give back, we stomp on the helpless.....i think it is all about desensitation.....just my opinion.....

I think that's what it is, the modern world has a habit to desensitize us, we need to take it back for ourselves. Screw normal society!

[Dot]

Whether as a hunter/gatherer 5000 years ago, or people living today - your experience is going be as simple or as complicated as you chose to make it. If you have a complicated life, and you don't want that, then create a life that you want. Why cop out by thinking people "back then" had it better?

And don't fool yourself into thinking that hunter/gathers had a "simple" life. Their life/world/universe/experience - and that of any human beings - is highly complex.

What makes you think that hunter/gatherers also didn't have people/animals/elements/beliefs/nature in their experience that were "out there" to "screw them over?"

[Dot]

Originally Posted by Smarky

Screw normal society!

How can you screw something that doesn't exist? And even if it did - why would you want to? What's the point? Does that somehow help you to define yourself?

[joelr]

The nomadic humans had their share of stress. Hunting big game with sticks is not easy. Climate, injuries, predators and especially the social structure within each group must have been challenging. Claiming a mate, figuring out who gets what food, who is alpha male, fighting between tribes etc..

The discovery of fire and planting seeds (which led to permanent homes in one spot) are considered the beginnings of mans inner development. Here we finally had time to relax and use our minds in a creative way. With these discoveries we see the emergence of art and spirituality. At this point humankind took a step to the next level of consciousness. From this point on man was better off I would say.

[aggie]

unfortunately...in the area of behavior...human kind does not always use this new level of consciousness for very productive or humnankindness....