Do we really need to be perfect in English?

[rak]

Do we really need to be perfect in ENGLISH? « Rakito’s Mill

[CoolBee]

Depends what you're trying to achieve!

There are cases where using perfect English obscures understanding and indeed leads to misunderstanding.

My particular beef is the use of the word "disinterested". Almost everyone (including native speakers - even the highly educated) thinks this word means the same as "uninterested".

For example, if I say "I am disinterested in the outcome of the election", most people will assume from this that I am uninterested and probably apathetic. What I am in fact saying is that I have no personal interest - vested interest - personal agenda - in the outcome of the election, though I may be fascinated to see what it is.

Another example, here in Egypt, many Egyptians who learn English use the phrase 'until now' to INCLUDE the present moment in time - so if they say something like 'until now I didn't do it' it means they STILL HAVE NOT done it. This is because the arabic word they are translating does include the present moment. In most cases, a native English speaker uses 'until now' to mean right up to but NOT INCLUDING the present moment (not convinced? Brits among you think back to Raymond Baxter and Tomorrows World!). So 'until now I didn't do it' will be interpreted to mean BUT NOW I JUST HAVE.

This is a potential source of conflict and miscommunication between native speakers and Egyptians working together in business - the Egyptian is quite clear that they have told their native-English colleague that they have NOT finished, the native-English colleague is equally convinced that they have told them they have and so when asked to produce whatever it is, the Egyptian is accused of lying.

The problem is, in the 'communicative approach' to learning English (which is somewhat ubiquitous these days), with the emphasis on reaching a joint meaning of words, many Egyptians have reached the same, slightly wrong, meaning. If an Egyptian starts using the word correctly, further misunderstandings will arise!

So, what is the purpose of your writing? Who is your audience? What is most important - communication of the message and ensuring all understand or to avoid being admonished by the 'board grammar nazis' to borrow a phrase?

[Brutha]

My particular beef is the use of the word "disinterested". Almost everyone (including native speakers - even the highly educated) thinks this word means the same as "uninterested".

According to Webster both meanings for disinterested exist in the english language. You can say disinterested when you mean uninterested but not every time you say disinterest you mean uninterested.

It also happens that you have in virtue of being a citizen an interest in an election in general Western thought.

I can be disinterested in the outcome of an election of some African state when I go to visit and watch the counting of the results to prevent manipulation of the election.

But when it comes to the election of my own country which happens to be able to effect the amount of taxes I have to pay I have an interest.
I might not have an agenda that includes minimizing the amount of taxes that I have to pay but I still have the interest because there might be effects of the election on my life.

If you have a context where you speak about whether the people who watch an election have an interest in the result of the election I think that most educated people will get the thing you mean when you say that the people are disinterested in the result of the election.

[rak]

My purpose is clear and you know that you know whats my purpose but the thing is you are figthing on it, listen to your concience my friend...

My audience? I welcome everybody who has a open mind and heart

Originally Posted by CoolBee

Depends what you're trying to achieve!

There are cases where using perfect English obscures understanding and indeed leads to misunderstanding.

My particular beef is the use of the word "disinterested". Almost everyone (including native speakers - even the highly educated) thinks this word means the same as "uninterested".

For example, if I say "I am disinterested in the outcome of the election", most people will assume from this that I am uninterested and probably apathetic. What I am in fact saying is that I have no personal interest - vested interest - personal agenda - in the outcome of the election, though I may be fascinated to see what it is.

Another example, here in Egypt, many Egyptians who learn English use the phrase 'until now' to INCLUDE the present moment in time - so if they say something like 'until now I didn't do it' it means they STILL HAVE NOT done it. This is because the arabic word they are translating does include the present moment. In most cases, a native English speaker uses 'until now' to mean right up to but NOT INCLUDING the present moment (not convinced? Brits among you think back to Raymond Baxter and Tomorrows World!). So 'until now I didn't do it' will be interpreted to mean BUT NOW I JUST HAVE.

This is a potential source of conflict and miscommunication between native speakers and Egyptians working together in business - the Egyptian is quite clear that they have told their native-English colleague that they have NOT finished, the native-English colleague is equally convinced that they have told them they have and so when asked to produce whatever it is, the Egyptian is accused of lying.

The problem is, in the 'communicative approach' to learning English (which is somewhat ubiquitous these days), with the emphasis on reaching a joint meaning of words, many Egyptians have reached the same, slightly wrong, meaning. If an Egyptian starts using the word correctly, further misunderstandings will arise!

So, what is the purpose of your writing? Who is your audience? What is most important - communication of the message and ensuring all understand or to avoid being admonished by the 'board grammar nazis' to borrow a phrase?

[Doku]

If you want to reach the largest audience, you must use proper English. While we are not as bad as the French in guarding our language, there are many of us who will simply stop reading an article/book/newspaper/... that does not use proper English. A good example of not using proper English is the article that you linked to in your original post. I could not read the whole article.

I also take issue with articles from PD people that don't use proper English. How am I to take someone seriously when they can't even use proper grammar?

[Kindred]

Proper spelling makes writing easier to read. Proper grammar makes writing easier to understand. Do we really need to be perfect? Not really. The mind is quite powerful in connecting dots. However, we must be careful that what we say is really the message we want to tell others.

Now, on the one hand, I believe improper spelling just leads to confusion for the reader. However, on the other hand, I believe improper grammar can show character, sound more natural, and purposefully make the reader think more deeply into ideas being presented. Keeping in mind, our words still have to be getting across our message in a way our readers can clearly understand.

Your article has grammar errors, but I had no trouble understanding it. My post has grammar errors as well, but I doubt anyone will have trouble understanding it. Why do we nitpick our language? I have no idea. It annoys me all the same.

Also, some food for thought:

Aoccdrnig to rscheearch at an Elingsh uinervtisy, it deosn't mttaer in waht oredr the ltteers in a wrod are, the olny iprmoetnt tihng is taht the frist and lsat ltteer are in the rghit pclae. The rset can be a toatl mses and you can sitll raed it wouthit a porbelm. Tihs is bcuseae we do not raed ervey lteter by it slef but the wrod as a wlohe and the biran fguiers it out aynawy.

[Indiana]

Language is a tool, and the sharper it is, the better it works.

That's why it is best to preserve understanding of the differing meanings of disinterested/uninterested, envy/jealousy, imply/infer, and the many, many other words that are frequently misused in the English language.

[rak]

A perfect comment for me thanks for sharing

Originally Posted by Kindred

Proper spelling makes writing easier to read. Proper grammar makes writing easier to understand. Do we really need to be perfect? Not really. The mind is quite powerful in connecting dots. However, we must be careful that what we say is really the message we want to tell others.

Now, on the one hand, I believe improper spelling just leads to confusion for the reader. However, on the other hand, I believe improper grammar can show character, sound more natural, and purposefully make the reader think more deeply into ideas being presented. Keeping in mind, our words still have to be getting across our message in a way our readers can clearly understand.

Your article has grammar errors, but I had no trouble understanding it. My post has grammar errors as well, but I doubt anyone will have trouble understanding it. Why do we nitpick our language? I have no idea. It annoys me all the same.

Also, some food for thought:

[funchy]

Here's a great example on how confusing something can be without correct punctuation. There is a fun English book called "Eats Shoots and Leaves". From the book:

A panda walks into a café. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and proceeds to fire it at the other patrons.

'Why?' asks the confused, surviving waiter amidst the carnage, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder.

'Well, I'm a panda', he says, at the door. 'Look it up.'

The waiter turns to the relevant entry in the manual and, sure enough, finds an explanation. 'Panda. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves.'

If you don't understand the rules of the language you're writing in, the meaning in your blog posts won't be conveyed properly.

If you're writing for a living, you need to understand all the rules of English. If the writing calls for you to break a rule, it's important you know what you're doing. Poor writing is hard to read and confusing. If your audience is teen friends on MySpace, some artistic license would be normal, but for most blogs written for an adult audience, it's expected the post is reasonably well written. A reporter who has poor grammar comes across as uneducated, uninformed, and/or unprofessional. Are your readers going to struggle through it? Will they get frustrated or confused and give up?

[James81]

No, you don't need to use perfect English....

That being said, and I'll be blunt, your English could use some work. But it looks like it's a second language to you, so it's understandable. But if you are going to use it to convey your message, take the time to make it as good as possible. I've read some of your articles before (and this one), and it's kind of hard to read.

The message you are trying to convey is going to be lost if people are hitting the back button because they can't make sense of what you are writing. No, it doesn't have to be perfect, but it DOES need to flow well.

That's my constructive criticism for you.

[rak]

Everybody has their own ways to express them selves.

What I say is that to all people out there who want to blog, to write something about travel, food or life just write it and upload it and yes even your english is bad.

As what I said there are nothing wrong to improve your english skills but when you will

start going to write a piece of article?

until you become perfect?

even the people who's using english as their native language cant perfect it well so what more to people who's native language is not english?

I say whatever you know right now just give it a try and dont mind your self to the haters and ballers.

[James81]

Originally Posted by rak

Everybody has their own ways to express them selves.

What I say is that to all people out there who want to blog, to write something about travel, food or life just write it and upload it and yes even your english is bad.

As what I said there are nothing wrong to improve your english skills but when you will

start going to write a piece of article?

until you become perfect?

even the people who's using english as their native language cant perfect it well so what more to people who's native language is not english?

I say whatever you know right now just give it a try and dont mind your self to the haters and ballers.

Sounds to me like you are just in denial and don't want to believe that you can actually improve your writing. Every writer, every real writer, knows that there are ALWAYS improvements that can be made to their writing. Even writers like Stephen King know that.

Don't just dismiss the idea that you need to improve your writing by deluding yourself into thinking that it's purely art.

But I do agree with you that if someone wants to write, that they definately should write no matter how good it is. Writing is very therapeutic and an excellent way to gather your thoughts.

But anybody who wants to have readers? Who wants to be published? Who wants to make money from their writing? Those writers need to be damn sure that they are constantly looking for ways to improve their writing.

[Brutha]

There a difference in having your own style and just violating norms.

Your article has grammar errors, but I had no trouble understanding it.

You still have to work mentally to correct errors in your head.
Papers written in a bad font that's not really readable get worse grades than the same paper written in a readable font as it makes the arguments in the text more difficult to follow.
The more difficult it is to follow your arguments, the less likely it is to convince someone else through your writing.

What I say is that to all people out there who want to blog, to write something about travel, food or life just write it and upload it and yes even your english is bad.

That depends on your goal. If your goal is just lies in writing something there nothing wrong with publishing a text that has errors.
Especially if you write a blog to practice your writing abilities
If you however want to make money with your writing it's a different story.

[Daffy Duck]

but my concern is to people who read articles I hope that we listen to the message of ones works without any excuses and open our heart to welcome whatever message he or she wants us to know.

I see what you mean. Some people may get wrapped in in what words are used instead of focusing on what those words represent. We don't need to focus on the paintbrush when we're supposed to be looking at the painting.

However, if you want to be understood, then it is best to write effectively in a clean and precise way. For example,

it dont mak e people luk smart if they write like dis and it turn sum people off.

Being able to speak and write well are good skills to have. They require practice.

[rak]

Sorry to say but I think the sound your heared is not what I am trying to express.

I agree with you that everybody needs to sharpen their saw even your not a writer. Improving the quality of our life is our responsibility may only point here is when you will going to go out there and live life? For me waiting for your self to be perfect before you try something like for example writing is not a good idea of living life to the fullest not unless you are competing (thats another story)

Originally Posted by James81

Sounds to me like you are just in denial and don't want to believe that you can actually improve your writing. Every writer, every real writer, knows that there are ALWAYS improvements that can be made to their writing. Even writers like Stephen King know that.

Don't just dismiss the idea that you need to improve your writing by deluding yourself into thinking that it's purely art.

But I do agree with you that if someone wants to write, that they definately should write no matter how good it is. Writing is very therapeutic and an excellent way to gather your thoughts.

But anybody who wants to have readers? Who wants to be published? Who wants to make money from their writing? Those writers need to be damn sure that they are constantly looking for ways to improve their writing.

[rak]

Exactly depends on my goal as what i said in my article if your doing a documentary or report that will be necessary to be good in your english

but if we are talking about writing, blogging and expressing our feelings there are no right and wrong on that.

Originally Posted by Brutha

There a difference in having your own style and just violating norms.
You still have to work mentally to correct errors in your head.
Papers written in a bad font that's not really readable get worse grades than the same paper written in a readable font as it makes the arguments in the text more difficult to follow.
The more difficult it is to follow your arguments, the less likely it is to convince someone else through your writing.
That depends on your goal. If your goal is just lies in writing something there nothing wrong with publishing a text that has errors.
Especially if you write a blog to practice your writing abilities
If you however want to make money with your writing it's a different story.

[rak]

Exactly! i agree with you.

Originally Posted by Daffy Duck

I see what you mean. Some people may get wrapped in in what words are used instead of focusing on what those words represent. We don't need to focus on the paintbrush when we're supposed to be looking at the painting.

However, if you want to be understood, then it is best to write effectively in a clean and precise way. For example,

it dont mak e people luk smart if they write like dis and it turn sum people off.

Being able to speak and write well are good skills to have. They require practice.