speedreading vs. photoreading

[Mind-On]

So what is the real difference between them, from what I read, photoreading works instantly with little practice unlike speedreading, I wonder how it works
Thanks,

[Trustme]

I have never tried photoreading but speedreading is basically increasing your linear reading speed by certain techniques and a lot of drilling. For example subvocalization (internal speech when reading a word or even forming it on your lips) slows your reading speed down. Another thing is regression - the habit to read and go back after a couple of words to make sure you understood it right. You learn to combat those habits when you learn to speedread.

I can't say much about photoreading. I am still waiting for positive testimonials of people here who have bought and completed the course before I spend the money on it. I doubt that Steve would recommend it if it were scam I am just not sure if it works for me. I am kind of a scientific person and not really keen on the more esoterical stuff.

My 2 cents.
Volkmar

[Toine]

Tony Buzan has a pretty good book on speed reading. It's an interesting read. You might want to check it out.

I'm a life long slow reader and eventhough I didn't really push through with this book I easily increased my reading speed with Buzan's advise.

(Buzan's book are also interesting in regard to developing your memory. He is known for his nifty mind maps)

[boris]

Speed reading works, and you can really learn to read several times faster. The problem is it takes very very long time to learn. And it even changes the way you read books (non-fiction ones).
Some people can even read several lines of text at once!

I don't like the fact that this photoreading thingie is so ridiculously priced.

[Savage]

I learned traditional Evelyn Wood speedreading many years ago. You learn to process clusters of words and avoid subvocalizing (mentally sounding out words as you read). If your normal reading speed is 300 wpm, speedreading will typically get you into the range of 900-1500 wpm.

PhotoReading, on the other hand, isn't about reading every word. It's a process for efficiently extracting key information from written material. It relies on subconscious processing and activation to activate the ideas that match your purpose for reading.

Speedreading is actually part of the PhotoReading system, although they give it the name "super reading." It's used as one of many techniques to extract information quickly.

If you want to pleasure read, speedreading is the way to go. I find PhotoReading more efficient when I'm clear about what I want to learn from a book and why.

[taylor]

I tried Triple Your Reading Speed by Wade E. Cutler. The focus of the book was on expanding your peripheral vision. I practiced, but could not get to be able to read at the level I wanted. I improved speed by not subvocalizing everything, and expanded my vision, but not too significantly. Perhaps I gave up too soon.

I listened to the overall idea of photoreading. It sounds like it could work to some degree, but not worth that price tag. I think the idea to have a goal going in before you're reading can allow you to tune out the fluff and retain what's important to you.

[DWarrior]

For the guys who have completed the Photoreading course successfully, would you say Speed Reading is a necessary stepping stone?

I bought Peter Kump's Breakthrough Rapid Reading about 2 years ago, but put it down after about a week and forgot all about it. I did get my speed to about 350WPM, but I just restarted the program from scratch and found my reading speed to be about 250WPM (I've broken 450WPM since).

What inspired me most to restart the program was the Photoreading ad. I would very much like to learn to photo read, but I think I should learn speed reading first. I notice speed reading engages my brain more fully, so I would imagine it's a good habit to have when photoreading.

Also, as Steve said, I may not want to photoread all texts, so it's good to have speed reading to fall back on and still read way ahead of the average reader.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by DWarrior

For the guys who have completed the Photoreading course successfully, would you say Speed Reading is a necessary stepping stone?

I think both are useful, although I don't think either is a pre-requisite for the other. Speedreading (or "super reading") is only one of several PhotoReading tools. I found it useful that when I learned PhotoReading, I already knew how to speedread because PhotoReading doesn't go into as much depth on specific speedreading skills. However, there's also the temptation to fall back on speedreading and not use PhotoReading while going through the awkward incompetence phase.

As an analogy, a few weeks ago, I began training in Shaolin Kempo at a local martial arts studio. I previously trained in Tae Kwon Do for many years. Because of my prior M.A. experience, I'm ahead of the game in Kempo for my belt level, but I also have a lot of TKD habits that are hard to break. So in some ways it's easier and in other ways harder. I'm always tempted to fall back on TKD techniques while going to the awkward phase of learning unfamiliar Kempo techniques that are similar but slightly different.

[elimisteve]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

If your normal reading speed is 300 wpm, speedreading will typically get you into the range of 900-1500 wpm.

How fast do you read now that you're PhotoReading, after accounting for the time spent on every step (Previewing, Activating, etc)?

[Zach]

I'm a pretty fast reader. I don't like to brag, but I read a 400 page book for pleasure in about two evenings. Probably not near the results claimed by those who've used Photoreading or a product like that, but I'm comfortable with my reading speed.

The thing with Photoreading I'm not sure about is the composition. If I'm not mistaken, the object of Photoreading is to seek out points and facts, and to skip over the unimportant, less useful stuff. I suppose it could be useful to skim over a book to see if it's worth buying, but I don't think I would spend the money to buy it. But that's just me, many people have had great results with this product and swear by it.

Originally Posted by satan

Steve is just trying to make a buck. He's in this whole "personal development" thing for money, (not that its a bad thing) so I would recommend that you research anything that he sells before buying it.

Not cool bud, I couldn't disagree more with what you said. Steve's stated several times that the money he receives is just a bonus, and he would continue to write articles for his site even if he didn't get a dime. It's next to impossible to write such great articles as he has if your only motivation is money.

Also, Amazon.com reviews vary like crazy, and really shouldn't be used as a basis for making a serious purchase, in my opinion.

[DWarrior]

Originally Posted by satan

Photoreading introduced to us by Steve is nothing but a scam.
Just read the reviews on amazon.com
Amazon.com: The Photoreading Whole Mind system: Books: Paul R. Scheele

or type "Photoreading scam" in Google.

Steve is just trying to make a buck. He's in this whole "personal development" thing for money, (not that its a bad thing) so I would recommend that you research anything that he sells before buying it.


Me.

A couple of days since the forum opened to the public and we already have our resident troll!

I actually googled "photoreading scam" (without quotes), but didn't get any apparently meaningful results. The few I read were by people who only tried the system to prove it wouldn't work, and a couple of people who expressed their strong opinions on why the system can't possibly work. The best idea I read was that photoreading should be learned as one of the skills of reading (so, like Steve said, if you want to enjoy the book's plot, you should read it conventionally). I didn't find any strong evidence to not give this a try.

That being said, I'm doing three self-improvement courses at the moment (Brain Building in 12 Weeks, Breakthrough Rapid Reading, The Memory Book), and I noticed that the authors of The Memory Book said that it's been scientifically proven that people cannot read faster than 800WPM:

...when someone tells you his reading speed is, say, 1,500 wpm, remember this: Authorities on reading have effectively demonstrated that it is physiologically impossible to read more than 800 wpm!
The misconception goes deeper. When we've asked people who claim to be able to read thousands of words per minute whether they remember what they've read, there's usually a moment of slightly embarrassed silence. (The Memory Book, 207)

Does anyone know of these "authorities on reading"? It's interesting to read in one book how it's possible to achieve 2,000WPM, then in the same night pick up a different book and read that it's impossible to read over 800.

P.S. I'm not smart enough to set up an affiliate account with Amazon. I don't get paid for those links, so click away

[greys]

I also think Photoreading is more facts-oriented approach. Although scanning the text for titles, bullet lists and highlighted (printed in bold) text is just the very first step of the reading process according to it. So I presume there are some more techniques for the actual reading, which would cover the rest of the text.

Author of Photoreading claims it would be helpful for any kind of reading - including fiction, so I guess we'll just have to wait for some more reviews before making a decision.

For the moment, I'm trying to get better with speed reading - and since it's claimed to be a part of Photoreading, I think I'm making progress in the right direction in any case

[Trustme]

Originally Posted by DWarrior

and I noticed that the authors of The Memory Book said that it's been scientifically proven that people cannot read faster than 800WPM:

[/i]

I remember looking through the top reviewer's list at Amazon.com once. There is (or was) a woman under the top reviewers with a huge number of highly rated lengthy reviews. In her description she says that she is a librarian (speed)reading one or two books a day. By the quality of her reviews I was convinced she actually reads the books not just scans them.

For her it is a talent she was born with. Whether you can actually train and learn this is another question of course.

V.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by elimisteve

How fast do you read now that you're PhotoReading, after accounting for the time spent on every step (Previewing, Activating, etc)?

I've never tried to measure in words per minute because my opinion is that it's a useless metric for PhotoReading, since you aren't trying to read every word anyway. But I can go through a 200-page book in about an hour total.

At first I did the activation right after reading the book, but recently I've been using Paul Scheele's recommendation to PhotoRead one day and then activate the next day. That does seem to be an improvement -- I feel I "know" the material better when I do that.

The last book I PhotoRead was The Lightworker's Way by Doreen Virtue, which is almost 300 pages. I spent about 80 minutes with it and feel I grasp and remember the content better than if I'd slow read it. I definitely didn't read every word, at least not consciously, but I do feel I absorbed the ideas extremely well.

[Savage]

Originally Posted by DWarrior

Does anyone know of these "authorities on reading"? It's interesting to read in one book how it's possible to achieve 2,000WPM, then in the same night pick up a different book and read that it's impossible to read over 800.

Perhaps the eyes can't visually see and process every word at a rate faster than 800wpm, but that's irrelevant even to regular speedreading.

Here's another version of that last sentence with most of the unnecessary words removed:

eyes can't process faster 800wpm, irrelevant to speedreading.

It still conveys the meaning, but with 8 words instead of 23. With regular speedreading you learn to scan chunks of words, training your brain to skip the fluff.

In the PhotoReading course, Paul Scheele says the actual information content is carried by only 4-11% of the words.

How many words you can process in a period of time isn't a great metric. What matters is how quickly and solidly you can extract the ideas that are valuable to you.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I definitely agree with that. Most words in a book are just fluff. It would be amazing if someone wrote a book where 100% of the book was information, but the only problem I can see with that is that there wouldn't be complete sentences. The only attempt I've seen that's similar to that is Marc Allen's The Type Z Guide to Success With Ease. It's that ebook that Steve talks about. What Marc Does is he'll write his book, but he puts these bold, blue centered words in the middle of the page, outside of the story and the bookand it gives you the actual feel of the book, and if you're "lazy or type A" as he says, you can just read that and get the whole idea. I really like that way of writing. He doesn't mess around, he gets right to the point. I kind of understand photoreading, but i really don't know how to activate it, as I haven't bought it yet, but I often read very fast if I'm reading with a purpose. But I'll have to check into it eventually...

[Brutha]

Does anyone know of these "authorities on reading"? It's interesting to read in one book how it's possible to achieve 2,000WPM, then in the same night pick up a different book and read that it's impossible to read over 800.

I would think that the eyes don't actually process words at all.
I think the 800wpm number was the maximum of "sound language".
If you define reading as having the sound of the words in your head you get such a limit.

But it is impossible to calculate a speedlimit for reading without subvocalisation.

You can only say person XY has only reached XX wpm.

[Alex w/Learning Strategie]

Most people find they can read three to five books in the same time it takes to read one traditionally. Even using PhotoReading on a novel which I intend to spend more time with I usually finish in one third the time.

You don't need to know speed reading as speed reading isn't for everyone. Superreading is faster than speed reading. At that point you're not trying to read, rather you're trying to pick up important information... you slow down to have a quick read of those bits. If speed reading or Superreading isn't your thing there are alternative methods.

As for only reading 800 wpm that is correct. The brain can only handle 7 plus or minus 2 bits of information a second that means optimally we should be reading 300 to 560 words a minute yet average reading speed is 190 words a minute and on the computer screen 25% less.

Anything above 800wpm is considered skimming. You're skipping what you think is unnecessary. It's easy to misunderstand information this way and is a disadvantage since you're only using the short term memory. Many speed readers find that their memory of what they read is very poor and they often have to speed read it again to collect the missing details.

PhotoReading isn't reading at 25,000wpm It's PhotoReading at 25,000wpm (a figure that is slower than the real speed we encourage you to PhotoRead at. It's possible to flip pages at 57,000 wpm and if you can comfortably go that fast go for it. Computer screens is as fast as the refresh rate of the monitor) What you are doing is letting your brain take a mental snapshot of the page. Then when you activate by Superreading and dipping your non-conscious mind shows you where you need to slow down and read.

PhotoReading puts the information into the long term memory and activation builds the conscious comprehension. Through PhotoReading the non-conscious mind is already familiar with the text so in Superreading you're not missing anything just skipping the irrelevant to hone in on the information that the author has presented. Since authors write for a wide audience they often repeat the information so the reader can connect with that which is most relevant.

If you just want to improve your reading speed read with a purpose. Ask yourself why are you reading this, what do you want to know, how will you apply it or put it to use. Anything that moves one out of the slow 190wpm reading which is so slow the mind gets bored. It's a small wonder slow readers don't like reading.

AlexK

[Alex w/Learning Strategie]

I just thought I needed to clarify something.

The conscious mind can only process 7 plus or minus 2 bits of information. It's one of the reasons why we have to use strategies to help us remember numbers greater than 9 digits.

The brain itself is capable of much much more. They are talking in the realms of 2 billion bits of information a second.

Traditional reading is done using the primary conscious memory which is the limited tip of the ice berg of brain functioning.

AlexK

[Brutha]

Anything above 800wpm is considered skimming. You're skipping what you think is unnecessary. It's easy to misunderstand information this way and is a disadvantage since you're only using the short term memory. Many speed readers find that their memory of what they read is very poor and they often have to speed read it again to collect the missing details.

The speedreading books say that comprehension goes up with reading past the 800 wpm mark.
You, who want to sell your Photoreading courses, say Speedreading doesn't work but Photoreading does.

Photoreading seems a lot more bizare, so why should I believe that Photoreading works but Speedreading doesn't?
Their is the NASA document (NASA tested whether Photoreading is useful for training their staff) with proposes that Photoreaders hypnotise themself (one of the Photoreading steps can be interpreted as selfhypnosis) to belief they understant the material when the in fact don't (when given a test). Therefore the accounts of people who tested photoreading aren't reliable information as long as they haven't taken tests over the material they read.

An addition Photoreading may work for someone like Steve you knows exactly what I want from a book while most of us don't have clear enough intentions.

[Alex w/Learning Strategie]

The NASA Doc?

If you happen to have a copy of the docs I'd love to read it. Learning Strategies was never provided a copy of any documentation prepared by NASA.

In Minnesota it is illegal to teach reading without a license. In May 1986 Learning Strategies was granted a license to teach PhotoReading by the Minnesota Department of Education. This was only granted after they called in an expert in reading to verify what is being taught.

The PhotoReading step is not done with the conscious mind. It uses the natural ability of the mind.

With 48% of the US population unable to read instructions on a pill bottle and 38% of students only having grade 9 reading skills and requiring remedial reading we could be arguing that reading doesn't work.

However if you can read you can PhotoRead. PhotoReading is merely the next level of reading that you should have been taught when you entered high-school. I have not had one person leaving my class not seeing for themselves the difference that PhotoReading makes. It's a different approach to reading that allows you to get your reading done 3 times faster than your traditional reading, with the same or better comprehension and using the same natural reading skills you already use for reading.

If you take a break from speed reading you need to learn over to get your speed up again. Take a break from PhotoReading you still get your reading done 3 times faster. It's something you can learn in 2.5 days.

By the way, that Steve can do it only proves that it's humanly possible, it's a learned skill. Wouldn't you prefer to acquire some of his skills? Have you ever wondered how much more progress people make when they stop saying he can, but I can't, and instead be like a child again and say I want to do that too, let me try? As kids we learned by giving things a go. Then we go to school and everything gets graded and everything becomes right or wrong. Getting it wrong is undesirable so it's better to avoid it or if it must be done get it right and there must be only one answer because only one answer is right. It must be proven that you have the right answer before you dare utter it.

I don't want to convince you that PhotoReading is better than speed reading. I know PhotoReading is easier than speed reading (I've learned speed reading and didn't find my comprehension was better. It got so much worse that my post speed reading, reading speed was slower than my pre-speed reading speed.

I don't really care if you learn PhotoReading or not, there's nothing in it for me. I do know there are a lot of benefits for the individuals who learn.

Alex

[Lucas]

I am learning to photoread right now, I think the concepts are great and the technique is solid. Then again, I totally believe in the power of my subconscious. I photoread a few books, and i can say that I gleaned quite a bit of information from them, but I also am still learning and am trying to break traditional reading habits.

For the record, I am using just the book, which I checked out of the library, and I am not affiliated with anyone at all.

[Nova]

Originally Posted by Alex w/Learning Strategie

The NASA Doc?

If you happen to have a copy of the docs I'd love to read it. Learning Strategies was never provided a copy of any documentation prepared by NASA.

Search on http://ntrs.nasa.gov/search.jsp for photoreading. You can't download the entire report, but the summary is telling:

The purpose of this project was to provide a preliminary analysis of a reading strategy called PhotoReading. PhotoReading is a technique developed by Paul Scheele that claims to increase reading rate to 25,000 words per minute (Scheele, 1993). PhotoReading itself involves entering a 'relaxed state' and looking at, but not reading, each page of a text for a brief moment (about I to 2 seconds). While this technique has received attention in the popular press, there had been no objective examinations of the technique's validity. To examine the effectiveness of PhotoReading, the principal investigator (i.e., trainee) participated in a PhotoReading workshop to learn the technique. Parallel versions of two standardized and three experimenter-created reading comprehension tests were administered to the trainee and an expert user of the PhotoReading technique to compare the use of normal reading strategies and the PhotoReading technique by both readers. The results for all measures yielded no benefits of using the PhotoReading technique. The extremely rapid reading rates claimed by PhotoReaders were not observed indeed, the reading rates were generally comparable to those for normal reading. Moreover, the PhotoReading expert generally showed an increase in reading time when using the PhotoReading technique in comparison to when using normal reading strategies to process text. This increase in reading time when PhotoReading was accompanied by a decrease in text comprehension.

[Elmex]

Some people would just love to do hard work in an easy manner and for reading there you have Photoreading.

Of course you can read faster some easy texts by just "blasting through".

But, please, show me one person in the world who can read at 20.000 words / minute - or less - with full comprehension.

Just to clarify, I did try PR by myself and to me it's completely useless for things like Amazon.com: EU Electronic Communications Law: Competition and Regulation in the European Telecommunications Market: Books: Paul Nihoul,Peter Rodford .
There are some nice tips about preparation and postprocessing but there's nothing you wouldn't find in another reading-skills book (!); paying 250 or 530 bucks for PR is, well, you might guess what..

You simply need to spend your time 100% alert on a subject if you want to master it. This is aka hard work. Whichever time it takes.
So to cut a long story short: per aspera ad astra.

PS: Taking a book into your hands (without opening it) is as effective as putting it under your pillow overnight

[Joel Chue]

That being said, I'm doing three self-improvement courses at the moment (Brain Building in 12 Weeks, Breakthrough Rapid Reading, The Memory Book), and I noticed that the authors of The Memory Book said that it's been scientifically proven that people cannot read faster than 800WPM:

I digress a little. But this really caught my attention.
This is seriously a limiting belief. As far as possible, let's try not to believe in these experts, unless you want a reenactment of Roger Bannister.

[Alex w/Learning Strategie]

Re; the NASA report; the researcher and the trainee are the same person. You can conduct that same experiment yourself but most scientist don't consider that valid research. And if is your out to prove it doesn't work then it won't you're in control of the research. The researcher was also looking for speed reading technique. PhotoReading isn't speed reading. You cannot read at 25,000wpm and if that's how you want to test the results you would indeed be disappointed. That research was looking for PhotoReading to be reading at 25,000wpm

Even the courts have ruled that anything faster than 800 wpm is not reading it is skimming.

While everyone looks at reading as x words per minute. The PhotoReading system is a "system" that uses a series of steps to help you get your reading done 3 to 10 times faster than you do with just reading x words a minute. It is more effective than word for word reading. Rest assured in an exam that has 3 hours allocated to it I would use most of the 3 hours and I would apply PhotoReading because it is more effective. Whole brain approach. As a result I would expect my grades to be better than pre PhotoReading.

Science can prove you cannot break a brick with your hand without hurting your hand. Yet with training there are individuals who do. The mind and body is quite amazing and brain research is learning more and more each day. It takes years of training to get to the point where you can break bricks with your hand. If you ever want to do it you'd have to start now.

PhotoReading only takes a weekend to learn and applying the system you can get through books in 1/3rd the time as a beginner. Is it humanly possible? You can wait for science to prove it if you want.

Alex

[Hazey John II]

Steve, how have you tested your comprehension of books you have photoread? Do you just feel you understand the material or have you actually tested this is a systematic way? Do you find information you have photoread coming to mind as you are working?

Also, it seems that much of the value you gained from the product was in learning to read nonlinearly, rather than from the photoreading step itself. Have you tried reading books using the system but without the photoreading step? If so, how does your comprehension compare?

If anyone else has thoughts on these questions I would be interested to read them. Thanks.

[Carlo Cabrera]

Originally Posted by Steve Pavlina

I learned traditional Evelyn Wood speedreading many years ago. You learn to process clusters of words and avoid subvocalizing (mentally sounding out words as you read). If your normal reading speed is 300 wpm, speedreading will typically get you into the range of 900-1500 wpm.

PhotoReading, on the other hand, isn't about reading every word. It's a process for efficiently extracting key information from written material. It relies on subconscious processing and activation to activate the ideas that match your purpose for reading.

Speedreading is actually part of the PhotoReading system, although they give it the name "super reading." It's used as one of many techniques to extract information quickly.

If you want to pleasure read, speedreading is the way to go. I find PhotoReading more efficient when I'm clear about what I want to learn from a book and why.

I agree with Steve on how there is value in both speedreading and photoreading depending on the type of reading.

I learned photoreading from a book first and later learned speedreading to assist in the super reading part of photoreading.

Now it feels like I'm just absorbing the information.

There are free videos on youtube and google that will improve your reading speed.

-Carlo

[machoman]

I purchased PhotoReading book 3 years back and I can recommend that book to anyone who want to improve their skills in skimming their books. I believe the most useful parts of the photoreading whole mind system is prepare,preview review,rapidread.I did photoreading step many times, but to be honest, it only made me more relaxed.

Iam saying this because it really gave me a uh, paradigm shift in my study habits. I used to read a book and expect to remember what I had read. I even cram in hopes I might remember the material I want to read. But no use.I just did those steps and it helped me remember the material.

In my opinion what I would tell would tell is to use this book/audio/Dvd programs as a complement to any speed reading programs like eyeq,Ace reader software. I don't think any human being could read at 25,000 words per min.

I think the author could label the word "read" with "skim" so that there would be no controversies with photoreading

[TiffyLove]

wow, after reading all of this I feel like a turtle reader!!!

What is the quickest and easiest technique to learn?