My crazy idea for language learning

[tor]

Hallo, everybody. I’m a big foreign language lover and my goal is to learn more than 20 languages in the next 3-4 years.
I think this is totally realistic goal for me, and it’s also very empowering. I’m 18 and my native language is Serbian. I understand English and German, and I’m learning Japanese(I learned more than thousand kanji so far), Mandarin and Spanish.

The main problem for me is that I can’t see the end to my goal(for individual language), and cannot determine what time frame will I need. Learning English took me 5 years of learning everyday for a bit, but learning German took me 1 year and it was very fun to make huge progress so fast.

The best method I found is to buy a good textbook and learn the basics(grammar, sentence structure, vocabulary) for 1-2 months.
Than start reading articles looking up every unfamiliar word in the dictionary and writing it down.
As time goes by there are going to be less and less unfamiliar words until there are almost none.

Today I had an idea which I haven’t tried but I think it could possibly work.
Step 1. Learn the basics like I wrote above.

Step 2. You should have a newspaper, or a book in the language you want to learn because all words you need to learn are there.

This is the crazy idea
Step 3. Start reading and pay close attention to every word. Say it a few times and notice how it sounds and looks on the paper, although you don’t have a clue what it means.
Do this with every word in the book or the newspaper every day for 2-3 hours. You will become familiar with the vocabulary and you will notice the words that are frequent . Do this for a month or two and you will be familiar with every word you need to know.

Step 4. The previous step will make learning the meanings very easy as the words are already in your memory. Take a dictionary and look them up.

Tell me your opinion. Do you think this could work. Or is it a stupid idea.

[ogrekilleat]

Interesting idea. I wonder, though, if maybe it could be useful, instead of a newspaper, to read something illustrated so you'll have context to put the words in. Like maybe some kind of comic book, so you'll be able to see just what's going on, or well-illustrated magazines or something.

[tor]

Interesting idea. I wonder, though, if maybe it could be useful, instead of a newspaper, to read something illustrated so you'll have context to put the words in. Like maybe some kind of comic book, so you'll be able to see just what's going on, or well-illustrated magazines or something.

Maybe try reading the book you've read and know well, so you know what's going on. I have Tolle's ''A new earth'' in Spanish and Portuguese.

[Doku]

The best resource that I have found is "How to Learn Any Language" by Barry Farber. The author speaks 25 languages. This is his book from the perspective of looking back, and deciding how he would have done things differently. He also runs a language club, and has incorporated many methods from the suggestions of the people there.

[mtrimpe]

I speak English, German, Dutch, French and bit of Spanish and a bit of Czech, so you could also consider me fairly multi-lingual. For me I have a similar yet slightly different experience.

I learnt most of my languages in a Pimsleur like fashion, focusing more on speech than writing.

I find that my language understanding improves in leaps when I have conversation in the language I'm learning and whenever I don't know something I ask the person (who needs to speak your language as well) to say it in their native language and then I repeat the sentence to continue the conversation.

For me the distinct advantage here is that I learn the words and expressions I tend to use in real life first.

[Taikin]

First I'll say: 'wow' to tor and mtrimpe. I'm always impressed with multi-lingual people.

Strangely enough I was just writing a post for my blog today that referred to seeing the 'end goal' with language learning and how one goes about learning a language.

I'm not sure if that method you've suggested is helpful but it is somewhat similar to Khatzu's method at All Japanese All The Time Dot Com » About
That blog is an inspiring and very useful guide to learning Japanese to fluency in 18 months.
The methods Khatzu promotes on that site can be applied to learning any modern language though.

tor, are you using Heisig's Remembering the Kanji Vol.1? That's the textbook for kanji I use and I have few complaints with it - in fact I can't imagine learning kanji well without the sort of mnemonic guide Heisig has invented.
I also use a mnemonic system called KanjiTown. Google it for more information (as I can't seem to get the relevant site to load).

One question I have for you, tor: how did you cope with speaking and listening to English and the other languages you learned? Surely all the learning of new vocabuary from written sources didn't much help you in these areas.

[Pegasus]

Twenty languages?!? Why not learn fewer languages really well? I would recommend five additional languages. Maybe ten if you're ambitious. Quality not quantity...

[tor]

I don’t use RTK because learning kanji that way is just silly. Take a look at the free e-book at Memory improvement, Improve your Memory, Memory development, Mnemonics, Memorization techniques, Memory improvement, Memory skills, Memory strategies, Brain power, Memory Loss and you’ll see why it doesn’t work well.

There is a jouyou kanji list at David Hallgren's Japanese Page I learn kanji by looking at it, analyzing strokes, and looking at the meanings. Somehow I manage to connect the meanings with it.
For example, I take a group of 20 kanji, do that with everyone of them, 2-3 minutes per kanji. Usually I can recall the meanings for
10 of them an hour later. Then I do it again and this time I recall
15. Than I take a break for a few hours, and I do it again. This time
I can recall all 20.
Next day I take another twenty.
The first 3-4 days are critical and I review them everyday. After that they are fixed and there’s no chance I’ll forget them.
I don’t learn readings and writing. I’ll do that after I’m done with learning the meanings. I am at lower-intermediate level
so I probably know around 2000 words and I achieved that in 6 months.

One question I have for you, tor: how did you cope with speaking and listening to English and the other languages you learned? Surely all the learning of new vocabuary from written sources didn't much help you in these areas.

Well, speaking and listening are two completely different things. I learned German very fast, but only from written sources. So I was reading serious books in German and understood every word, but
I couldn’t understand stupid talk-shows on TV because I wasn’t used to hearing the language. It took me two months watching German tv to get used to the spoken language.

I can pronounce English and German like a native, but can’t speak fluently. I can’t even speak fluently my native language, so that’s my weakness. Somehow I express myself badly and can’t make long sentences and that’s something I must work on.

Twenty languages?!? Why not learn fewer languages really well? I would recommend five additional languages. Maybe ten if you're ambitious. Quality not quantity...

My basic aim is to understand a language, to be able to read a book or a magazine and understand everything perfectly. After I achieved that I can choose to learn a lot of grammar and practice speaking or I can choose to stop there and just keep that knowledge.
I know that I want to speak English, German and Portuguese fluently and without mistakes, but I’m not so sure for Belarusian, Bulgarian, Slovak or Mandarin

After I’m done with Japanese, Mandarin and Spanish. I’m going to learn languages in groups. First Slavic, than Romance and in the end Germanic/Scandinavian.

I’m glad Serbian is my native because Slavic languages are all very similar.

[Taikin]

Take a look at the free e-book at Memory improvement, Improve your Memory, Memory development, Mnemonics, Memorization techniques, Memory improvement, Memory skills, Memory strategies, Brain power, Memory Loss and you’ll see why it doesn’t work well.

Ah, thank you, I'll go look into that now.

[Brutha]

Take a look at the free e-book at Memory improvement, Improve your Memory, Memory development, Mnemonics, Memorization techniques, Memory improvement, Memory skills, Memory strategies, Brain power, Memory Loss and you’ll see why it doesn’t work well.

Do you have taken their course?
If yes, how does it affect your language learning?

Step 3. Start reading and pay close attention to every word. Say it a few times and notice how it sounds and looks on the paper, although you don’t have a clue what it means.

Some people suggest that you should take an audiobook (you can reduce the speed of the audiobook digitally nowadays) of the same book and read outloud at the same time as the audiobook while looking at the text.

Maybe you should try to get one book and the audiotapes in your 20 languages.

[Tasaio]

I don’t use RTK because learning kanji that way is just silly.

Are you speaking from experience? Have you actually tried it?

I don't find anything silly about RTK. Much better than your current, inefficient method. Good luck at trying to memorize ~3000 kanji your way! In this case I am speaking from experience because I tried the same method. It failed utterly. I suggest you stop before you waste another couple of months.

The reality here is that you are going to forget those kanji unless you use an SRS system to store them in long-term memory.

As I previously recommended, this website in invaluable:

Reviewing the Kanji : a web-based flashcard application for remembering the kanji

It's an excellent supplement for RTK, but you can probably get by without using the book.

In the future, do not be so obnoxious as to call the RTK method 'silly'. The thousands upon thousands of learners who have benefited from it would disagree with you.

One thing you'll learn, if you ever visit Japan, is that arrogance is not viewed favouraby over there. Looks like you have some work to do.

[tor]

@Brutha Thanks for the suggestion.
Yes, I’ve taken the course, and I’ll tell you, everything you need to know is in GMS manual. The course only contains exercises. Every technique works, but I don’t think you can learn more faster
with it. For example text memorization does not work word for word, you only memorize ideas. Also it’s very slow so I don’t use it. BTW, I saw you on nlpweekly forum, I think Shlomo got also disappointed with it.

From the course:
“The technique is pretty laborious
and detailed memorization is possible only if performed little by little, during a study year, for example.
About 2 history texts in a week.”

It works good with vocabulary learning. It’s possible to memorize 100 words a day, but it’s not easy. You must make a list of those 100 words, spend 2-3 hours memorizing them and review them for the next 3-4 days.

@Tasaio Yes, I started with RTK and was very exited to find a book like that. I learned first hundred kanji with it in a month, and then I found the course at pmemory.com. When I read the free e-book on their site it became clear to me that there is a much better way to learn kanji than making stories.
Please, read the book, and than confront me about RTK being “silly”. I didn’t want to offend anyone. I just think that if Heisig knew about Gms course his book would be much better.
GMS and Learning Japanese or Chinese - School of Phenomenal Memory Community

Also, you are suggesting that I stop using my method which enabled me to learn the meanings of 1000 kanji in 2.5 months.
I’m not a liar, and I assure you it works 100% for me. I’m now taking a break because I’m reviewing them, and, guess what, I rarely have trouble remembering them. Maybe our memory is different. You should use what works best for you.

[Brutha]

Also it’s very slow so I don’t use it. BTW, I saw you on nlpweekly forum, I think Shlomo got also disappointed with it.

Yes, I know (I opened the orginal thread about pmemory on nlpweekly). But unfortunatly Shlomo didn't explain why he got disappointed.

In the future, do not be so obnoxious as to call the RTK method 'silly'. The thousands upon thousands of learners who have benefited from it would disagree with you.

While story telling is more effective than simply root memorisation using a system that is about pictures should work better.

It works good with vocabulary learning. It’s possible to memorize 100 words a day, but it’s not easy. You must make a list of those 100 words, spend 2-3 hours memorizing them and review them for the next 3-4 days.

How much time have you invested into the system and how many second do you need on average per mental picture/chunk of information?

[Taikin]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

In the future, do not be so obnoxious as to call the RTK method 'silly'.

It actually is pretty silly at times. Even Heisig admits in the book that his method is pretty strained for some kanji - evidenced partly by his occasional reliance on pictographic aids.

Check out Page 85:
'Only here we find a small home computer or two strung on the line by a father anxious for his son not only to have the courage and determination of a carp swimming upstream, but also the efficiency of a computer. Ugh.'

You're expected to come up with your own mnemonics for 1500 of the kanji in the book, supposedly for your own good, but I wonder if it was mainly because Heisig's own stories for many of the other kanji are as bad or worse than the carp one.

I still think it's a brilliant system (though I haven't read the e-book on pmemory yet, but will today, I hope!) but it's not worth biting someone's head off for calling RTK silly. At times it's almost ridiculous.

[Tasaio]

Check out Page 85:
'Only here we find a small home computer or two strung on the line by a father anxious for his son not only to have the courage and determination of a carp swimming upstream, but also the efficiency of a computer. Ugh.'

You're expected to come up with your own mnemonics for 1500 of the kanji in the book, supposedly for your own good, but I wonder if it was

I think you're misunderstanding Heisig's method. He doesn't rely upon mnemonics, but rather, imaginative memory.

For "carp", I envision, in my mind, a specific house with a specific clothsline, containing old computers hanging next to dried carp. That the image is so preposterous is what makes it easy to memorize.

However, a word must be said about the simplicity of the "carp" kanji. I believe that is well before the 500 mark? Once you get past the 1000 mark, you start having to deal with five or six primitives...versus the two in the "carp" kanji.

In my opinion anything to make learning the kanji easier--and to help turn them into a sort of personal alphabet--is well worth the three months required.

I also think, though, that Heisig's method becomes next to useless without an SRS to store the kanji in long term memory.

Reviewing the Kanji : a web-based flashcard application for remembering the kanji

One of the benefits of this site is that you don't have to spend time coming up with your own images--you can collaborate and work with other people.

[Tasaio]

Also, you are suggesting that I stop using my method which enabled me to learn the meanings of 1000 kanji in 2.5 months.

Using Heisig's method, at 30 kanji per day, you're looking at:

30 days/month x 30 kanji/day = 900 kanji/month

In three months, you'll learn 3 x 900 = 2700 kanji

Far more than 1000 kanji in 2.5 months!

Remember, there are about 3000 kanji in total if you really want to be able to understand Japanese (novels, etc.).

I’m not a liar, and I assure you it works 100% for me.

I believe you when you say the method seems to be working for you, but I am concerned that you overestimate your memory. I know I did -- I mistook short-term memory for long-term memory.

I’m now taking a break because I’m reviewing them, and, guess what, I rarely have trouble remembering them.

Without some sort of rigorous system for review, you're going to run into trouble trying to schedule reviews for > 3000 characters. I strongly recommend Mnemnosyne, Anki, Supermemo, or some other SRS program.

Maybe our memory is different. You should use what works best for you.

I agree, it is possible that Heisig works particularly well for me because of my reliance upon imagination when I read books (I did lots of reading as a kid).

I will look into your method, and consider trying it for some characters.

[newmark]

I think your original idea for learning is good and have used similar methods myself.
I'm interested how you would learn Chinese. Chinese newspapers don't include pinyin or any phonetic alphabet. I can speak Chinese and am now learning how to read it, but I find newspapers too hard. Learning from comics is quite good for me.
Please let us know how your 'crazy idea' works out.