Thick Face, Black Heart...

[saaretjie]

Has anyone read this book?

I'm reading it right now... and the authors views are... interesting

Maybe I don't get it. She tries to portray deception as a natural part of life, which needs to be practised and perfected, contrary to... well just about every personal development writer.

She justifies it by using "the end justifies the means" thing i.e. You can lie to people as long as it's good (in your eyes) in the long run.

... Maybe I'm just too naive. :S

Thoughts?

[dinc]

I haven't read the book, but however interesting it is, my beliefs are totally contrary to it's views. Deception, as a way of life, does require infinite practice, denial of self, and a really good memory. It's also considered to be nasty in current society, so I don't really know what the writer's getting at. It seems like a guidebook to unhappiness.

I lie alot, and it makes me unhappy. I'm an honest hypocrite :P.

[saaretjie]

Originally Posted by dinc

I haven't read the book, but however interesting it is, my beliefs are totally contrary to it's views. Deception, as a way of life, does require infinite practice, denial of self, and a really good memory. It's also considered to be nasty in current society, so I don't really know what the writer's getting at. It seems like a guidebook to unhappiness.

I lie alot, and it makes me unhappy. I'm an honest hypocrite :P.

Tell me about it!

I spent the last 2 years living a lie! Worst period in my admittedly short life.

I continued reading the book and have found it to be a mass of contradictions, along with some very dodgy stories (Don't you hate it when writers use obviously fictional stories to get their point across?).

Not saying that there aren't some valuable points in that... It's just that a 400 page book could have been easily scaled down to 50 pages allowing readers to pick and choose points to apply in their life at their discretion instead of having to wade through piles of crap.

[Sam988]

Originally Posted by saaretjie

Has anyone read this book?

I'm reading it right now... and the authors views are... interesting

Maybe I don't get it. She tries to portray deception as a natural part of life, which needs to be practised and perfected, contrary to... well just about every personal development writer.

She justifies it by using "the end justifies the means" thing i.e. You can lie to people as long as it's good (in your eyes) in the long run.

... Maybe I'm just too naive. :S

Thoughts?

I haven't read this book but i partially agree with the author. You just can't be honest all the time. And since you're gonna have to be dishonest now and then, you better know how to be it.

[Akashic_Librarian]

Its like the 48 Laws of Power. Some of those Laws are quite interesting, and very useful, most of them focus on the character, on what sort of person you are, however a few - the ones I find less attractive - are the ones that focus on how you appear to others - and thats the difference.

This book sounds rather...

bitter.

Like the author just hasn't got what she reaslly wants in life, so attempts to explain her feelings, by projecting them into this book.

[saaretjie]

Originally Posted by Sam988

I haven't read this book but i partially agree with the author. You just can't be honest all the time. And since you're gonna have to be dishonest now and then, you better know how to be it.

I see what you're saying... but when is it allowable to be dishonest?

In the short run, lies are better than the truth almost everytime.

But in the long run, when everyone discovers that you're a fraudster a liar and a cheat (and lets face it, the truth just about always comes out), and your reputation is ruined with no one willing to do business with you... well, that kinda sucks.

Shouldn't you aim to be as honest as possible?

[Cran]

I did't read the book, but the underlying (did I spell that right?) question seems to be: Is it allowable to be dishonest? For whatever reason, for gain, for fun.

Honesty and dishonesty are moral values.
Morality can only be justified by a higher being (i.e.: God (in any form, a higher power) set the values, so we have to follow them) OR by arguing that we have to follow the standards of our culutre to obtain happiness/peace and maintain the functionality of the said culture.

If you argue with the higher being, then it wouldn't be allowable to be dishonest in any way... unless you would deliberately try to be the bad guy and harm yourself and/or others.

If you argue with culture, then dishonesty would not be bad per se, but only the negative effects of dishonesty would be shunned by the people around you. So it would come down to: Dishonesty is allowed as long as you profit from it and not get caught.

As our society dislikes dishonesty, people who are openly dishonest would suffer rejection and be unhappy. People who have incorporated the believe that dishonesty is bad and act against it would also suffer personal remorse.

[saaretjie]

Originally Posted by Cran

I did't read the book, but the underlying (did I spell that right?) question seems to be: Is it allowable to be dishonest? For whatever reason, for gain, for fun.

Honesty and dishonesty are moral values.
Morality can only be justified by a higher being (i.e.: God (in any form, a higher power) set the values, so we have to follow them) OR by arguing that we have to follow the standards of our culutre to obtain happiness/peace and maintain the functionality of the said culture.

If you argue with the higher being, then it wouldn't be allowable to be dishonest in any way... unless you would deliberately try to be the bad guy and harm yourself and/or others.

If you argue with culture, then dishonesty would not be bad per se, but only the negative effects of dishonesty would be shunned by the people around you. So it would come down to: Dishonesty is allowed as long as you profit from it and not get caught.

As our society dislikes dishonesty, people who are openly dishonest would suffer rejection and be unhappy. People who have incorporated the believe that dishonesty is bad and act against it would also suffer personal remorse.

I think that regardless of moral consequences, dishonesty is probably one of the major causes of stress amongst people.

The thought of being caught with "their pants down" has left many people with sleepless nights.

One could argue that perhaps business to some extent does require a degree of... umm... deception shall we say.

But if someone goes into business intending to be (ahem) deceptive at any time it suits them, than you're just setting up a dishonest business. Compared to someone who went into business and intended to make his business as honestly as possible, and therein perhaps he slipped up a few times but still tried to be honest...

(Although as I go further along the book, amongst all the crap there are some very good points.)