What if your career counselor is OBESE?

[sadavis00]

5 out of 6 of my university's career counselors are obese, which is the first thing I noticed about them when I went in for some career counselling.

They told me a lot of the things I read in these forums, "reach for the stars", "go with what you like, go with your passions". O.K, not really bad advice, BUT, coming from a morbidly obese person, I just couldn't respect the advice as a "sage advice".

This pattern is familar. Those who can't seem to solve their own problems, attempt to solve other people's problems, attempt to tell other people how to live. Was it the counselor's "passion" to become a counselor, or was simply a psychological issue, their deep-seated need to feel like they are O.K, perhaps the thinking that made them counselors is that if they achieve a position where they advise other people, then logically they themselves must be O.K.

Personal example is very very important to me. Obesity, for me, seems to indicate something very psychologically troubling in the other person, it is an extreme of behavior, of eating.

That said, I wish people, even on an online forum, gave some physical, mental, social, economic, and philosophical description of themselves. I will do this personally whenever I post any kind of advice from now on, so people know exactly how to judge the merits of my advice. If the advice is not original, I will state the source.

(I have nothing against obese people, I simply wanted to point out the importance of personal example, it is not "wrong" to be obese, I don't think that).

Anyway, is it wrong for me to judge these counselors so negatively? The whole counseling session was just such an ardous, painful experience, I absolutely could not respect anything these people said. I couldn't really say "well, all your advice on living and working seems good, but do you realize that you are obese?".

For the sake of disclosure: I have NEVER been called a jerk. I do realize I sound like one in this post.

[Keith]

[delete] Never mind, Ezza put it all better, anyway...

[Ezza]

While I can see where you are coming from, I think you are overreacting.

If they were a personal/physical trainer, life-coach or similar, your response would be justified (IMHO).
But it is possible (if not likely) that they really are quite good at their jobs, it's just that you are not prepared to accept their advice/opinion as legitimate because of your own attitude towards an obivous phyisical trait of theirs.

I also get a sense of "Those you can, do. Those who can't, teach." attitude from your post. While there may be some truth to that, it is not something you should apply to everyone who offers you advice!

At the end of the day, I think you need to think about why this affects you so strongly, and either work to resolve that, OR... accept that aspect of your character and go find a career counsellor who is a little thinner!

[sadavis00]

Originally Posted by Ezza

accept that aspect of your character and go find a career counsellor who is a little thinner!

Good advice. Will do... but wait a minute here, how do you weigh?

[Derek Pankaew]

I don't think you're over-reacting at all. I also think that him/her being obese wasn't the only "signal" that your mind picked up on - It might just be the flag you were consciously aware of.

My personal belief is that people are intuitively very accurate; especially when sizing up people. Even if a person wasn't obese, if my intuition told me that this person wasn't living the level of vibrancy/level of life than I want in someone who's giving me advice, then I won't be taking advice from that person.

If the person was obese, but you got the sense that this was a powerful, successful person, would your "judgements" have still been the same?

That said, I've found most career counselors to be useless. If their counsel was any good, why are they making 40K a year working for the school district? (By choice or accident?)

My 2 cents.

[The David]

Since the advice is related at least somewhat to finances, I would be more worried if they were emaciated.

[Brutha]

That said, I wish people, even on an online forum, gave some physical, mental, social, economic, and philosophical description of themselves. I will do this personally whenever I post any kind of advice from now on, so people know exactly how to judge the merits of my advice.

People in an online forum have a history and if you wanted you could gather enough information about most users with more than 100 posts by reading their former posts to judge them.

If the advice is not original, I will state the source.

Specific advice seldomly comes from a specific person. These days we read so much, that most of our thought (at least my own) comes from something you read.

Most people who know something about personal development judge "Think and Grow Rich" as one of the main classics of the field. A lot of successful people have read it.
Neverless Napoleon Hill was broke some time around ~1930 (which was after he wrote the book). That doesn't make his book made theory.

In the end the success that you have in live doesn't depend merly on the theory or advice that you follow but on your own actions.

[Tim Brownson]

Good example Brutha and another would be Thomas Leonard author of 'The 28 Laws of Attraction'. He died at 48, I mean c'mon, how good was he at this stuff if he couldn't keep himself alive long enough to celebrate his 50th birthday? The ultra fit author Richard Carlson (Don't Sweat the Small Stuff etc) was also a devout meditator yet he popped his clogs age 45.

The thing is sadavis, can they do their job? To look at them externally and judge their intentions and abilities is not helpful to either them or you imho.

BTW, I'm 5' 10" and 155lbs and off to the gym in about an hour. OTOH, I will probably have more than a few drinks tomorrow night so I guess that means I should quit coaching

[Jennihul]

You are talking about apples and oranges.

Why would a person's physical appearance negate their ability to give sage career advice?

They obviously are following their own passions: Leisure and good food/drink. Nothing wrong with that.

That's like saying Steven Hawking must be a terrible scientist because he obviously cannot conduct experiments himself nor travel to the far reaches of the universe that he so well understands.

Or that someone paralyzed in a wheelchair could not possibly be an athlete themselves or could not possibly instruct or coach a student in how to be a great athlete.

So you really DO have something against obese people to draw those strange conclusion, methinks.

Jennifer

[sadavis00]

Originally Posted by Jennihul

You are talking about apples and oranges.

They obviously are following their own passions: Leisure and good food/drink. Nothing wrong with that.

How can food and drink be a passion? If that's what they themselves think, it would lead me to really doubt what they mean when they tell me to follow my passion.

Originally Posted by Jennihul

So you really DO have something against obese people to draw those strange conclusion, methinks.

Jennifer

I actually don't. I can't point to any obese friends for proof, but that's for a totally unrelated reason of judging them to be losers... Just kidding! please don't throw apples and oranges at me!

(To reiterate, I have nothing against obese people, I have something against obesity itself, which I think is very often the the external manifestation of other underlying problems, unlike, say, body building, which is a failure to say "YES" the the activty that leads to a strong physique, fatness is a failure to say "NO" to the eating activity that leads to weight. Hmm, writing this makes me think why I value the ability to say "NO" over the ability to say something "YES". There seems to be no reason to do this. Maybe I'm wrong to judge so negatively a fat person, and judge neutrally a naturally thin person who doesn't exercise.).

I take back what I said regarding obese people. I think I'm still confused, I'll this more thought.

[eblight]

It seems to me that our society judges obese people as being losers, gluttons and out of control. Even their intelligence is questioned.Recently I read about forty five obese people who had returned to a normal weight. Each one said that they would prefer to be blind, deaf or even lose a limb rather than be obese again. That's how bad they felt about their weight. It's so easy to judge others by how they look and body image is very fundamental for most peoples' self esteem and confidence. Someone in a position of authority as a counsellor stands out if they are obese but we probably wouldn't question that if they we slim but abusing other substances like for example, alcohol.

[dreamndo]

Originally Posted by sadavis00

That said, I wish people, even on an online forum, gave some physical, mental, social, economic, and philosophical description of themselves.

For a lot of people, an online forum represents a meeting of the minds; a place to share thoughts, feelings, advice, support, etc. Physical appearance is (or should be) irrelevant. This isn't an online dating site, it's an online forum.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by sadavis00

... Hmm, writing this makes me think why I value the ability to say "NO" over the ability to say something "YES". There seems to be no reason to do this.

Seems to be no reason, huh? Looks like you're having an insight here; heed it!

If you're only willing to respect the advice that comes from a person who is 100% free of being "psychologically troubled" as you put it, you're going to have an awfully hard time finding an advisor to respect!

Obesity, which represents for you an inability to say no, is a hotbutton issue for you. Another counselor, maybe one who is going through a divorce, or one who doesn't feel appreciated by society because she makes only $40k a year, might not spark the same reaction in you. But your issue is that you won't respect advice from a person whom you went to for advice, because she shows up for you as someone who can't say no. You have adjudged that this person IS something, and you won't accept a person who is being that particular way of being.

For you, what is a person who can't say no Being? Weak, maybe? See if you can distinguish what that way of being is. Then take a look at yourself, and see where that way of being exists in you. (You can be confident that it does exist in you!)

What do you see?


p.s...I'm slender.

[sadavis00]

Originally Posted by Angela

For you, what is a person who can't say no Being? Weak, maybe? See if you can distinguish what that way of being is. Then take a look at yourself, and see where that way of being exists in you. (You can be confident that it does exist in you!)

What do you see?

p.s...I'm slender.

It it ridiculously easy for me to say "NO" to anything external, like food, girls, money, good grades etc. I am very very self-restrained. Hence why I am little unsympathetic towards people who can't do this.

But, I have more difficulty saying "YES", which is why I have deep empathy for people who "just can't get moving". So, if I was fat and trying to lose weight, I would say "NO" to food, rather than eat and say "YES" to exercise.

But, if discipline is a muscle, which can get sore, and if "YES" and "NO" is how it is exercised, then it may actually be a good choice to say more regularly choose "YES" instead of "NO". When I say NO to something like girls or food (in favor of something more satisfying, like analysing the basis of counselling and obesity ), my muscle is exercised, and its remains flexed for long periods of time, which is draining. If I simply indulged myself, like the OBESE probably do, then my focus on what I'm doing will not so easily waver, my muslce will not be so tense from the constant repetition of "NO".

But, I dislike "giving in" to the instincts that test my discipline, no matter how draining. I am not going to chase every girl I know simply to get them out of my head (relieving the tension in my discipline muscle, so I can focus on what I want to focus on). BUT, I should probably be sympathetic towards obese people who take this route, with food instead of girls I suppose.

And Angela, it's good to know you're slender, very very good to know, brings up a good image in my head (Down boy, down, "NO", "NO", we barely know her)(Sorry for that, teenage hormones are still raging, a few years too long.)

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by sadavis00

Those who can't seem to solve their own problems, attempt to solve other people's problems, attempt to tell other people how to live.

Great teachers don't have to have been great students to be great.

How many of the coaches that coached athletes to win gold medals were gold medal winners themselves?

In the grand scheme of things, I am only a "so-so" piano player. Still, I could teach someone to become much, much better of a player than I am myself. Just because my hands are limited in what they can do, doesn't mean I don't possess the knowledge to teach a better player.

[Rose of Cairo]

sadavis, I've been obese in the past and although I've considerably lost weight now, I'm still overweight. You can check that in the Post your Picture Thread on pages 9 and 11. So please feel free not to take me seriously!

Originally Posted by sadavis00

Obesity, for me, seems to indicate something very psychologically troubling in the other person, it is an extreme of behavior, of eating.

Originally Posted by sadavis00

fatness is a failure to say "NO" to the eating activity that leads to weight.

What I find very psychologically troubling in you is that you judge people on the basis of something you have obviously no clue about.

Obesity is a very complex phenomenon. There are many, many reasons why someone can end up with overweight. Saying that obese people are just lazy gluttons who lack willpower and self-discipline is but an ignorant stereotype. Obese do not "simply indulge" themselves. You have absolutely no clue about how that is.

FYI, many obese people do not eat more than thin people. Believe it or not! They just eat things their body is not able to deal with, unlike the body of "normal" people. I for example became obese without eating more than other people. If I ate as much and the same things as some of my skinny friends, I'd weigh 300lbs. And yes, I do move much more than they do. Oddly enough, my body doesn't react like theirs, what a bummer.

[m18pak]

It it ridiculously easy for me to say "NO" to anything external, like food, girls, money, good grades etc.

I envy you, sadavis00. What I wouldn't give to be in your position and have women throwing themselves at me and tempting my resolve with bribes of food and money.

[Brutha]

It it ridiculously easy for me to say "NO" to anything external, like food, girls, money, good grades etc. I am very very self-restrained. Hence why I am little unsympathetic towards people who can't do this.

But, I have more difficulty saying "YES", which is why I have deep empathy for people who "just can't get moving". So, if I was fat and trying to lose weight, I would say "NO" to food, rather than eat and say "YES" to exercise.

Do you think it would be more effective to receive advice from someone who had the same weaknesses and strength that you have than from someone who has different?
If you do what you have always done, you will get the results you have always gotten.

[Jim11]

A counselor being obese is just a reminder that people don't necessarily practice what they're preaching. It doesn't mean the advice isn't good. Advice spewed from someone in shape requires the same personal analytical thought that it would from an obese person. ie: Is this advice complete garbage?

I would suggest that you spend more time carefully considering how counseling or advice impacts your life, instead of thinking about whether or not it's coming from a hypocrite or a glutton.

If someone offers pearls of wisdom that it's clear they doesn't really care about, since they're really thinking about "how long until lunch", it doesn't mean someone with more strength can't use some of it to their advantage.

[sadavis00]

Originally Posted by Brutha

Do you think it would be more effective to receive advice from someone who had the same weaknesses and strength that you have than from someone who has different?
If you do what you have always done, you will get the results you have always gotten.

I realize people have their strengths and weaknesses. The counselors strength is probably career advice, her weakness is her indiscipline in weight managment. Ofcourse, I have the opposite strenghs and weaknesses. If the advice was something practical, like how to write a good resume, then none of this would have mattered. BUT, the advice was of a moral nature, "How to live one's life?", "How to find meaning in one's work?", "How to balance one's career and other aspirations?". Moral advice requires personal example of being an overall good person. It is "holistic" advice, the merits of it are judged based on the whole person giving the advice. (moral advice is necessarily personal advice because there are infinite number of way of being good, there is no one true way, advice isn't "out there" to be discovered - a part of reality itself, a person giving moral advice is telling you something about themselves, how it has made them an awesome person, but if they seem to be not so awesome, then how is the advice to be taken? Maybe take the counselors as simply people who impart impersonal opinions by various authorities showing you different ways of thinking? Why not cite their sources then, the people who've actually made it work? That would certainly be the honest thing to do)

Now, a person has their strengths and weaknessess. If they have either solved their weakness or resolved it -- for an obese person solving this would mean losing weight, resolving would mean realizing that there is a weakness which is difficult to solve, and so unconditionally accepting the weakness, and handling all the judgments that come with being fat with humor, and never complaining about being fat ever again, the problem has been RESOLVED or SOLVED, the problem no longer exists, the fat person can now move onto other problems. THAT is a WHOLE person, he can handle/accept his weaknesses with humor and tact, he can be strong in what his strenghs are, he can give MORAL ADVICE.

BUT, for most obese people, their obesity is a FESTERING problem (and perhaps aided by the media portrayal of fat people), they are constantly WOUNDED when any seemingly negative judgement is made of their weakness, they cannot handle it with genuine humor (as opposed to the tension-relieving kind of humor) because they have neither solved nor resolved their problem.

These 5 counselors, from their behavior seemed to be the defensive, easily wounded sort - probably not all obese counselors are like this - but the aggregation of so much such people in one room, ready to impart moral advice, the only thing they are probably not personally-on their own merits- qualified for, does seem strange to me.

ANYWAYS, I hope my problem is "resolved". I'll see you on the other side. Happy New Year

[Angela]

Whoa!! Sadavis00, I'm astonished at how tremendously judgemental and presumptuous your last post is!

I know judgemental and presumptuous is not who you are; you are a loving person committed to personal development. But your declarations about who is qualified to offer advice, and what it means when people's bodies are a certain way, and how they should handle it -- well, it sucks the life right out of the room!

I love you, and I know that you're not a person who wants to suck life out of life, but rather to breathe life into life. I'm not asking you to do anything about it, but I just wanted you to know how that post occurred for me!

Lots of love,
Angela

[Dan.Linehan]

Are we saying that we can't discern anything from someone's physical appearance?

What if the career counselor was covered in facial tattoos and had a swastika burned into their forehead?

[Angela]

Are you talking to me, Dan? Sure, evaluating the source of what you're hearing is always a good idea, and physical appearance is a part of the thin-slicing we do when we're evaluating what works for us.

But there's evaluating what another person is offering -- that is, distinguishing what works for us, what actions we're inspired to take, who we want to include or exclude in our life, etc. -- and then there's judgements about who a person is: good, bad, whole, what works in another person's life for that person (not you).

Evaluating is determining what it takes to build a life you love.
Judging is cutting yourself off from possibility.

[m18pak]

FYI, many obese people do not eat more than thin people. Believe it or not! They just eat things their body is not able to deal with, unlike the body of "normal" people. I for example became obese without eating more than other people. If I ate as much and the same things as some of my skinny friends, I'd weigh 300lbs. And yes, I do move much more than they do. Oddly enough, my body doesn't react like theirs, what a bummer.

Rose of Cairo, I read somewhere before that sensitive empathetic people, and women especially, tend to put on weight as a subconscious defense mechanism. Because they're always caring and worrying their bodies go into survival mode and store up as much fat as possible, because the body starts to think that there is an imminent famine or natural disaster of some sort.

[m18pak]

sadavis00, just because someone is a personal failure does not mean that they can't give good advice.

Just think of people like that as donkeys laden with gold.

[lespauldude]

go to the one that isn't obese. problem solved.

[lespauldude]

angela, can't you show this kid some hate? can't hate teach anything? well, it was what i was trying to do in that post i made earlier that got deleted.

[Rose of Cairo]

Originally Posted by m18pak

sadavis00, just because someone is a personal failure does not mean that they can't give good advice.

Are you really saying that obese people are "a personal failure"?

[Acting Like Godot]

Arguably the world's best ever tenor:



Arguably the second-most famous Buddha in the history of mankind:



One of them is skinny, and one of them is not:



"we shall fight in France, we shall fight on the seas and oceans, we shall fight with growing confidence and growing strength in the air, we shall defend our island, whatever the cost may be, we shall fight on the beaches, we shall fight on the landing grounds, we shall fight in the fields and in the streets, we shall fight in the hills; we shall never surrender":



After all these years, still bringing joy to kids all over the world, every year:



Merry Christmas and happy new year!

[JimOfferman]

Originally Posted by lespauldude

angela, can't you show this kid some hate? can't hate teach anything? well, it was what i was trying to do in that post i made earlier that got deleted.

Didn't you get the memo? Love, not hate, conquers all!

It is very easy to judge people on their surface, but that rarely tells you the whole story. My dad used to have a colleague who was quite large. You might be tempted to think that was because he was over eating, while in fact he was hardly eating anything at all. His diet consisted of two slices of bread (one for breakfast, one for lunch), two pieces of fruit and a modest dinner. No snacks. No treats. Because every time he'd eat more he would immediately start putting on weight.

Imagine how much discipline is needed to restrict yourself to such a modest diet, when there's mouth watering foods on display everywhere and all the people around you are munching it all up, 'cause they don't get fat so easily.

I'd be glad to receive advice from such a person!