To those with children - PD is VERY difficult - agree??

[Jan]

Hello all,

I am a new member and I have read lots of PD articles and books over the last 2 years. I have become a member of this and another site today, such great articles and blogs to be found on the internet. Fantastic advice and outlook on life from Steve Pavlina.

I don't feel that I can apply everything that I have read to the extent that I wish too because I have two young children. I am wondering how others who have young children feel about this (doesn't seem to phase Steve Pavlina, pretty sure he has two a bit older than mine!!)?

I have read (and do believe) in the power of focusing completely on one goal at a time and eliminating distractions and also of spending time by oneself to think, plan and decide on one's purpose etc. I cannot do these things...very frustrating. I have been interrupted...now...four times...by my boys as I write this message...now five - anyway - I still have been fairly successful in applying the PD concepts I have learnt. I work full-time and have the children to take care of and yet I have somehow managed to complete 5 professional exams in the last 2 years due to sheer desire to improve and work towards my goal of getting a really good job. However, I am still at my mediocre job, the same boring job I have had for 12, yes 12 years. I want to complete my qualification before I - finally - move on because I know if I leave now I will not complete the qualification because I will not be able to cope with new (more stressful) job and deal with the children plus studying. My present job is fairly low stress ( & low paid!) and I can do some studying in my lunch hours so I am using that to my advantage. My plan is to move after I complete my last 2 exams (mid-year 2007). This is in violation of the PD "rule" to stop putting things off and do it now!

I have spent the entire weekend doing laundry, cleaning up, playing games, feeding, bathing etc. etc. etc. with my boys - nothing has been done towards my career goals. My husband and I are usually exhausted by Sunday evening! During the week I have their homework as well to deal with and I have to leave my workplace early (a benefit of present job) to pick up the children by the deadline.

I will have to basically start studying at work and cram again before my next exam and drive my husband crazy (he will have to mind the boys much more than usual) just like I did to get the last 5 exams passed. Pretty stressful for us all.

Of course I had 8 years or so before we had children when I could have accomplised so much...but I was unaware of PD and I did nothing at all. I regret that and can't believe how much time I wasted.

Have to go now and attend to things. Thanks for letting me vent. By the way...LOVE my adorable boys...just wish I could improve myself more. Guess I will just have to improve slowly. Worried that by the time I finally get on track career-wise I will be OLD and poor and in the meantime it is quite depressing to have a crappy job!

Any thought or opinions?
Thanks, Jan.

[Erin Pavlina]

I completely understand where you're coming from. When I had my first child, I noticed that for the entire first year I had to scale way back on the business I was running. It was frustrating as I watched others growing their businesses while mine stayed pretty static. When she was older I got a high school girl to come over and play with her for just 3 hours a day. I wrote my first book in those three hours a day. She was happy, I was happy, all was well.

When the second child came, I knew in advance what was going to happen to my time so I arranged for people to manage my business for me so I could give him the attention he needed.

When the second child turned three and the first was 6 I got a lot of freedom back. They are now both in school full time so I am finally working a full 8 hours a day again. It's glorious to be working on my own goals while also giving as much quality time to my kids as I can. Plus now they like playing with each other.

So, to get back to you... It's a balance. If you need/want more time to work on the things that are important to you, consider bringing in some help. You can let your kids play with someone while you're in the house working or learning.

[imhnyc]

My hats off to you, Jan. You are working, studying, doing housework, and raising your two young children - I hope you see how much you are accomplishing.
I am a SAHM with 3 children under 5 years old and I can barely get everything done! A former regret of mine was that when my first child came along, I dropped everything and became completely absorbed in my child. I followed in the same manner with the next two. I'm a firm believer in "everything happens for a reason" so I've decided not to second guess the past and just work from where I am now. And so, here I am, on the Pavlina websites, building myself up again. I love my children very much and having my own personal goals and aspirations makes me a better mom and a good example to my children.
Interruptions are terribly frustrating. Sometimes I have patience and handle them well. At other times, when I have no patience left, I remember what my children's 98 year old great grandfather said to me - to cherish this time with my young children because it will be what I will always remember years from now. He still remembers when his children were young and it brings a smile to his face - he did good. I want that too.
Best of luck to you in all your endeavors!

[Pagoda]

It can be frustrating, I agree. My wife and I have a 2 year old boy and she is due with a girl around Christmas. Being able to focus on anything long enough to make any progress (let alone actually complete what you started) is a rarity.

I prefer to meditate and exercise in the morning, so i have tried waking up extra early before my son does in the hopes of getting more accomplished (especially with PD.) But it hasn't worked. My son is also a morning person, and he just "knows" if someone is awake in the house. He has to know what everyone is up to, and so he comes tearing out of his room to investigate no matter what the hour. Even if I am just sitting in my bed meditating, he "knows" and gets out of his bed to come see me. He does the same with his mother.

I try to tell myself that my feeling of frustration when these things happen is exactly what I could be working on in terms of PD. It is an opportunity to step back and let go. But it isn't easy.

[Milo Riano]

Being a housewife/husband is a career most people fail to see and appreciate. I am happy and proud my mother took the career path seriously. Prior to becoming a full-time housewife she had a wonderful career in computers and could have been the piooner and senior people in technology. I have no doubt I am going to be a thousand times more successful in Information Technology than she ever could attain and that's all because of her still.

I have yet to find someone who can teach PD and become a role model more than she can.

I have no doubt it is possible. She taught us about time management and playing our role at home (at the age of 5) to help in whatever way we can to make everyone's work lighter including hers. At a point she went back to an 8 hour job because we were already disciplined enough to play our role at home.

[ludlow]

I would just add, as a person with no kids yet, that even if you're childless, responsibilities of all sorts have a way of filling any vacuum, to the point where it becomes really, really hard to find time to work on PD stuff.

I'm not saying this to try to undermine your point (and raising children is clearly a vast achievement, of itself). But it might just help you feel a bit less badly about the situation if you dispensed with the idea that there are some other, childless people out there who get tons of time for PD, who you need to try to measure up to.

We don't! We're all in this boat together...

[RedPanda]

Originally Posted by ludlow

I would just add, as a person with no kids yet
[snip]
it might just help you feel a bit less badly about the situation if you dispensed with the idea that there are some other, childless people out there who get tons of time for PD, who you need to try to measure up to.

We don't! We're all in this boat together...

Ohhh, trust the parents on this one. We were all childless before we had our kids, you know

[ludlow]

Ohhh, trust the parents on this one. We were all childless before we had our kids, you know

I think maybe you missed my point. I'm not disputing that parenting takes up amounts of time I can't begin to imagine! But I assure you that we childless people can be absolutely equally pressed for time - but with a different combination of obligations and duties, obviously. The important point here I think is not to reinforce the notion that the shifts in perspective that are at the heart of PD actually NEED large amounts of free time, which almost nobody who cares about PD in the first place is going to have - by definition.

[RedPanda]

Originally Posted by ludlow

I think maybe you missed my point.

I think maybe you missed this ->
I never suggested that all childless people have as much time as they need for anything they want to do.
I don't mean to offend, but maybe, just maybe, people who have been on both sides of this particular line might know something you don't. Possible?
It was more a joke for other parents really.

[shesaboutspirit]

I hope you give yourself credit for the twenty million things you're already doing in your life. It's easy to discount ourselves and just see what we haven't done yet...which only makes it seem bigger. I know this one...people have always told me I'm too hard on myself...and I attempt to take their words to heart.

My kids are now 9 and 12. I've been single for the last seven of those years now. It's hard, yes...it was a zillion times harder when they were even younger though... Now they know what "personal time" means and are much more caring of what Mom needs.

My biggest message to you, if I can help at all, is that it gets way better pretty quickly. Setting clear boundaries with your family as you go along is the hardest but most helpful piece of the puzzle. Knowing that you deserve as much for yourself as they do...and standing up for that...

You're learning difficult and useful lessons now though, that will give you your foundation for whatever you do next...like boot camp

Keep the faith,
Pam

[ludlow]

In fact, I'm 100% sure that people who have kids know things about having kids that I, as a childless person, don't know! It would be a bit odd to argue the contrary.

My only point (offered originally in a truly constructive spirit, so I don't want this to degenerate into an argument) is just that focusing on a circumstance of one's life, and thinking of it as eliminating the time needed to experience growth in one's life, might be an unfruitful way to look at the situation. I'm not sure that adopting a growth orientation takes time, per se. I increasingly think it is more about your framework for viewing the life you have. I certainly haven't reached some amazing perfect way of doing this myself yet.

[The Yarnist]

You have a point, ludlow. What is the point of saying, "Things would be easier if I didn't have kids." I know that for me, it only serves for me to feel sorry for myself and what kind of reality am I creating with that?

Sometimes though it's nice to commiserate.

What helped me tremendously was have a strict, early bedtime for my kids. It wasn't my nature. I was really big on letting them sleep when they were tired (we homeschool) but I had to do it for my own sanity.

[michael.shearer]

What bigger challenge than developing yourself into a reflection that your children can learn from? Yes it may be difficult to do "sitting meditation" or other defined PD tools, but every moment is a moment for meditation and reflection. I have an 18 month old girl who can nearly climb walls and a 5 year old super-sensitive son. We started as a single income family with my wife raising both children, but now she's earned certifications in teaching Pilates and our schedules have been crunched.

Things we do for our sanity and development are just asking for help (family, getting babysitters, and living a life of personal development in every aspect we can). Our growth and change is common discussion in the household; we don't debate many topics other than that (besides child-rearing, co-parenting, work, and finances). Having both been deeply into self-improvement before we met, it has always been a natural inclination of our relationship. Kids and our communication with them are a great reflection of where we are at and where we need to go. I've cried cleansing tears for the love of my children on repeated occassions.

Other minor adjustments are early mornings, late nights, NO T.V., and trying to surrender to the flow of the family. There will be plenty of time to speed up our efforts as they both are in school and grow up and out of the house. I'm going to enjoy that while it lasts and grow where and when I can. I'll have another 100 years or so of life without my little kiddos running around the house.

[RedPanda]

Originally Posted by ludlow

My only point (offered originally in a truly constructive spirit, so I don't want this to degenerate into an argument) is just that focusing on a circumstance of one's life, and thinking of it as eliminating the time needed to experience growth in one's life, might be an unfruitful way to look at the situation. I'm not sure that adopting a growth orientation takes time, per se. I increasingly think it is more about your framework for viewing the life you have. I certainly haven't reached some amazing perfect way of doing this myself yet.

Sorry, I sounded more argumentative than I meant to be. I entirely agree with your point above. Now I think about it, having children actually provides you with opportunities for growth, not least in emotional maturity and taking responsibility.

[The Yarnist]

"Kids enhance personal development"

That's true. I've been saying for the last couple of years that I didn't know anything until I had kids.

I've had a real hard time being present during the real grind parts of parenting though. And surrender to the flow of parenting... yes, that's a real challenge for me too.

What ways do you all find helpful in surrending to the flow of parenting?

[imhnyc]

Setting a good example in a consistent manner is the biggest challenge to me as a parent.

Before children, I was disorganized and indecisive. To make it through the day, I am required to be organized and decisive with just about everything. That was a big jump for me in my development as a better person.

Patience, acceptance and being solution-orientated are more virtues that I strive for everyday. I know that these are only the tip of the iceberg in PD, but progress is progress.

You teach best what you most need to learn." -- Richard David Bach

I realize that I'm not just improving myself for my sake but also teaching my children.

[River]

A really neat book that helped me better define the changes that come with parenthood was The Mommy Brain- How Motherhood Makes Us Smarter. Talks all about the changes in the brain that come with parenting (and this goes for dads too, as well as adoptive parents). Improvements in multi-tasking, empathy, boldness, creativity, leadership.... there's some neat research coming out on these topics. Includes references to the original studies.

You'll finish it feeling that the time you invest with young children is not just beneficial for them but for you too.

[RedPanda]

Originally Posted by The Yarnist

What ways do you all find helpful in surrending to the flow of parenting?

It's certainly a challenge alright! At difficult or frustrating times I try to remind myself of two things:

First, they're the kids in this relationship, it's OK for them to behave like children. I should know better. This helps to stop me from getting angry when, for example, I've asked my son to do something for the fifth time with no response.

Second, they learn appropriate behaviour by watching ours, so when they're not doing what we expect them to I think carefully about how we've been behaving. Trivial example: we're trying to teach them to always say 'please' and 'thank you', yet listening to our conversation my wife & I frequently say 'Can you do this' or 'Could you do that' without the please. Doh!

Other than that, assiduously cultivate patience and treat them with the respect you would accord an adult, but don't expect them to behave like one.

[Jan]

Thanks everyone for your messages.

I am improving and working towards my goals it just seems to be so slow-going. I wish that I was "awake" many years ago, before children, but you are right that it is pointless to dwell on the past.

The boys really tire us out but as they get older it will ease up. We don't have grandparents around so that's part of the problem I guess.

I am going to continue my quest for life balance - kids plus career development -all part of overall PD I suppose!

Jan

[ReallyGoodIdeas]

I know what it's like too Jan, although I stopped at one child - I knew my limits on that one! ;-)

My marriage broke up when I was 2/3 way through uni, and i had to go part time, work full time and pay a lawyer to avoid bankruptcy, while living in a house that was barely habitable. Spending quality time with my (then 5 year old) daughter was unfortunately the last todo item i had! However this became a huge PD learning thing in itself for me. I realised i was repeating my mother's pattern of seeking financial security and ignoring my daughter's needs.

Thankfully I realised this after a period, and was able to appreciate the beautiful little girl who was trying to comfort me while her life had dropped to bits.

I learnt from that, that children can teach us a lot if we're paying attention. They have a brilliant honesty and curiosity that in my case was revelatory at the time. My daughter has been a great PD teacher. Is it a zen saying that goes, Before enlightenment, chop wood, collect water, after enlightenment chop wood, collect water.

It's the chopping and collecting that's the hard work, but maybe the hard work is essential in some way?

It DOES get easier, I know small children are hard work, but my zen master, now 14, still enlightens me most days. I'm in awe of her. I'm sure your boys will be the same.

Your boys are here for a reason, they are part of your life lessons too. You'll be fine you know, by definition, you won't die before you're finished!

joy to you
Hazel

[New Every Day]

Hi Jan,

As a full-time stay-at-home dad & part-time business consultant, I can understand your feelings of frustration. It's really hard to feel productive while you're watching Sponge Bob!!!

But I'd like to throw something else out as well. You said that you're struggling with the "Do It Now" concept of PD. Well, I can understand that but when I look at what you've said, you are doing it now. You are working on the final 2 tests in 6 months. That's now.

I'd also like to recommend FlyLady.net: Your personal online coach to help you gain control of your house and home. She teaches you how to keep your house picked up & clean doing it 15 minutes at a time and not letting things pile up. She's really helped me a lot in getting the house organized and straightened up. For example, she talks about doing 1 load of laundry every day. You could put it in washer in the morning before you leave for work, change it to the dryer when you get home, and fold it after dinner. That way, you don't have the big pile-up on Saturdays.

Also, if your kids are old enough to be in school, they're old enough to learn some good cleaning habits and some good boundaries. My daughter (7) cleans her own toilet & sink every morning. It generally takes about 3 minutes. I've also had to teach her that when my den's door is closed, she must knock before coming in. You could also set aside some "down" time where the kids need to play in their own room and can't come out until a buzzer rings. Set the alarm for 30 minutes and then you can have some PD time and they can learn to play by themselves. You might have to start out at 10 minutes and work-up, but this would probably work as well.

Anyhow, it's time for me to go and do some of the things on my Action list today.

Have a good afternoon All!
Ed