Don't get scammed by going into college

[ken nubo]

Somewhere along the line – around the year 2000 or so – there was an orchestrated effort by the big corporations, which paid the news media, to run reports after reports of college graduates earning more money then high school graduates.

This lead to the public perception that college graduates earn more money. Which is generally true – if you’re looking to work for someone else for the rest of your life.

And the bank (and we know the banks and the global elites control the world) is amassing billions and billions of dollars from these poor college kids and their parents through student loan interest.

The public got suckered and conned into billions of dollars in the name of “education”. No need to put a gun to people's head to rob them of their money if you tell them that their financial future is at stake.

What’s kinda weird is that college doesn’t guarantee a job. Pretty weird huh.

But of course, a lot of people who went to college are going to protest and say college isn’t about just training to get a job, it’s about “learning”, and “networking” and “socializing”.

That’s cool, nothing wrong with that, but you can do it for free with a trip to the library (learning), join an organization that you’re interested in (networking) and a trip to the mall, club or beach (socializing)

College is just a poor excuse to waste 4 years and a couple thousands of dollars because most people don’t know what they want in life, and follow what society says.

But of course, I’m not going to leave you hanging there by ending this post now. No, there is a remedy for this.

The remedy is to skip college so you don’t end up having debt before you turn 21, and follow your dreams, whatever it may be.

But I know a lot of people won’t do this because they’re afraid, but that’s okay. Only a few will go against the crowd. Always has been, always will be.

PS: Obviously you will need college if you want to be a doctor, lawyer or teacher. For everything else, skip college so you don’t join the pool of losers.

Peace out,
Ken, a happy high school drop out

[The David]

That’s cool, nothing wrong with that, but you can do it for free with a trip to the library (learning),

True.

join an organization that you’re interested in (networking)

...true, kind of.

and a trip to the mall, club or beach (socializing)

That's where we disagree. Yes, you can have a social life without college, but for some of us it will be enormously hard, and the kind of social network we would attain would be more narrow.

College is just a poor excuse to waste 4 years and a couple thousands of dollars because most people don’t know what they want in life, and follow what society says.

A couple thousand dollars, yes. 4 years, no. The 6 months I've spent in college have been life-changing for me. I might drop out next semester for health reasons, but it won't be the time or money.

PS: Obviously you will need college if you want to be a doctor, lawyer or teacher. For everything else, skip college so you don’t join the pool of losers.

I plan to be a teacher. Maybe even a schoolteacher. So I guess I'll be joining the pool of losers. Have fun at the library.

[cdn2wheeler]

There was a time when a university or college education actually meant something. Back when my parents were of that age, a young person with a college or university degree could pretty much write their own ticket.

But times have changed. Now - at least in Canada - college or university tickets are mandatory requirements for many, many positions. That's led to a situation whereby it's almost a given that education is necessary after high-school. That's diminished the value of higher education, simply as a result of supply-demand: higher supply equals lower demand and downward pressure on wages. Combine that with grade inflation, and the result is that a college or university ticket has far less value than it used to.

If one is going into a profession such as doctor or lawyer or something of that nature, then of course a post-secondary education, including graduate work, is necessary. But as much as we might like to think that getting an advanced degree in, for instance, renaissance-era literature has value, the fact is that it's just not applicable.

[Zukin]

I think it's silly that some of the HR gatekeepers require a college degree for some positions that don't require specialized knowledge (e.g. non-engineering & non-medical positions).

Who would you rather hire? Someone who earns a degree who later gives up on life and watches TV for four hours a day, or someone without a degree who spends a lot of their free time gaining knowledge about something they are passionate about which will improve other people's lives?

Luckily, rules are no problem for a committed person and the best businesses are able to distinguish between people who get results and people who just look good on paper.

If I had skipped college, started working full time, and put the majority of my savings in stocks when I entered college, I would have had several hundred thousand dollars by now.

[Doku]

Originally Posted by ken nubo

PS: Obviously you will need college if you want to be a doctor, lawyer or teacher. For everything else, skip college so you don’t join the pool of losers.

Yes, you too can drop out of high school and live out of a backpack and dufflebag like Ken does! (at least that's what his website said he was doing last time I checked it)

Seriously, Ken... Did someone pee in your cheerios? Why is it that you have this disdain for successful people?

real life example: I have two friends that were about the same age, and were co-workers for the past 5 years doing essentially the same job. One graduated high school, the other has a degree. And you're right, they were making about the same ammount of money. They both got sick of all of the management BS when the company they worked for was sold. The guy with a degree got another job almost instantly at 115k. The high-school guy is still at 60k at his old job, and still looking. Having known them both and worked with them both for about two years, I'd say that the high school guy is actually the better programmer, but without the degree, he can't get the break.

[saaretjie]

In a strange way this sounds right...

As in... it shouldn't be like this... but it is.

However I think for a person to not go to college or varsity, they need to know where they want to be in life. A lot of people are happy with mediocrity. And when it comes to two people, who are both happy with mediocrity, than the person with a degree will almost definitely earn more.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Zukin

I think it's silly that some of the HR gatekeepers require a college degree for some positions that don't require specialized knowledge (e.g. non-engineering & non-medical positions).

I fully agree. HR departments are a particular bug-bear of mine. Instead of getting the best people for the job, they're far too interested in keeping motivated, strong people out of organizations. I see this every single day. Qualified, intelligent people never get a callback because the HR person said, "I dunno, I just didn't get a feeling that he/she would work out."

If, for instance, an accountant said, "I dunno, I feel that the balance sheet is OK but I haven't actually done the calculations yet," or an engineer said, "I feel the structural integrity of the bridge will be alright but I don't have any evidence for it," they'd be fired so fast it would make their head spin.

But for some reason, organizations large and small let HR departments get away with this sh!t.

yea, it pi$$es me off

[Tasaio]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

But times have changed. Now - at least in Canada - college or university tickets are mandatory requirements for many, many positions. That's led to a situation whereby it's almost a given that education is necessary after high-school.

But education is not the same as a university. In fact, I'd say that very few students learn much of value at university anymore. (I'm not talking about hard science graduates.)

I had the potential to go far in a company job I had, without a degree. But I didn't want to work at a company for life, so I opted for the degree.

I hated university classes, because the learning was agonizingly slow. I stayed home and taught myself from the textbook instead, and got the highest marks in several of my courses.

I then realized that I could be learning this for free, so I put my degree on hold.

If one is going into a profession such as doctor or lawyer or something of that nature, then of course a post-secondary education, including graduate work, is necessary. But as much as we might like to think that getting an advanced degree in, for instance, renaissance-era literature has value, the fact is that it's just not applicable.

I'm confused...you just said that degrees are needed for many, many positions. Are you saying that degrees are needed, but that they themselves don't possess any real value?

As for The David,

That's where we disagree. Yes, you can have a social life without college, but for some of us it will be enormously hard, and the kind of social network we would attain would be more narrow.

You don't consider the internet a social network?

A couple thousand dollars, yes. 4 years, no. The 6 months I've spent in college have been life-changing for me. I might drop out next semester for health reasons, but it won't be the time or money.

It's a lot more than a couple thousand dollars for some of us, depending on our program. Those of us in the real sciences (computers, architechture, engineering) have had our fees deregulated. This means we get charged up from $10 000 per year.

And I take issue with you saying your 6 months in college have been life-changing. Of course they were, for you--you were homeschooled.

I'm tired of you painting yourself in this sympathetic picture. You don't realize how lucky you were to be homeschooled. It makes you different. It makes you seem more mature than most people on this forum.

Those of us who went through the public education system aren't the lucky ones, David...we were treated like cattle for most of our schooling.

I plan to be a teacher. Maybe even a schoolteacher. So I guess I'll be joining the pool of losers. Have fun at the library.

I intend to. Much more fun than getting myself drunk with a bunch of rowdy students.

[Zukin]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

I fully agree. HR departments are a particular bug-bear of mine. Instead of getting the best people for the job, they're far too interested in keeping motivated, strong people out of organizations. I see this every single day. Qualified, intelligent people never get a callback because the HR person said, "I dunno, I just didn't get a feeling that he/she would work out."

That's why a lot of organizations now bypass personnel/HR for hiring purposes and just use it as a department for administrating benefits. In fact, all the career books I've read say to forget about the personnel department and talk directly to the people who are doing the type of work you like.

[Zukin]

Also, Cialdini's book Influence is the real resource on how the world works. I learned more from reading that book than I did in four years of college.

[The David]

Originally Posted by Tasaio

You don't consider the internet a social network?

Only to a certain extent. I personally don't find internet communication as beneficial as face-to-face communication.

And I take issue with you saying your 6 months in college have been life-changing. Of course they were, for you--you were homeschooled.

That's all I'm saying. That entire post was just about me. College is a good experience for some people.

[cdn2wheeler]

Originally Posted by Zukin

That's why a lot of organizations now bypass personnel/HR for hiring purposes and just use it as a department for administrating benefits. In fact, all the career books I've read say to forget about the personnel department and talk directly to the people who are doing the type of work you like.

Well, yes and no.

If you get a chance to actually speak with the person in charge - a highly unlikely event, because that's why they hire HR people in the first place as "gatekeepers" - then that might might make a difference.

But the other side of it is that if HR perceives an applicant as doing an end-run around their oh-so-important job function, they can easily "lose" the application or find another reason why the applicant won't get considered.

Again, this sort of thing happens every single day, I see it all the time.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by ken nubo

PS: Obviously you will need college if you want to be a doctor, lawyer or teacher. For everything else, skip college so you don’t join the pool of losers.

You also need college if you want to be an engineer, a scientist, a financial advisor, a veternarian, an FBI Agent, an officer in the military, a judge, an accountant, and many other jobs where a bachelor degree is the mininum to start.

Also, I know an enterpeneur who went to college in his late 20's (he was too poor to go to college before then) to get a bachelor and masters degree to learn all he could about his field of operations - he didn't go to get a degree, but he went to "learn". Forty years later, today, he is a multi-billionaire and one of the top 400 richest guy in America.

Just because you didn't go to college, doesn't mean the rest of us who did are losers.

[Zukin]

Originally Posted by cdn2wheeler

But the other side of it is that if HR perceives an applicant as doing an end-run around their oh-so-important job function, they can easily "lose" the application or find another reason why the applicant won't get considered.

And that's another reason why big bureaucratic businesses keep succumbing to creative destruction and disruptive technologies

One of my favorite stories on this topic is that when the software company Lotus Development became a big company, they submitted the original employees' resumes to the personnel department (after changing the names). None of them got a call back, including the multimillionaire founder, who was once a transcendental meditation teacher.

[Zukin]

Originally Posted by seeker5

You also need college if you want to be an engineer, a scientist, a financial advisor, a veternarian, an FBI Agent, an officer in the military, a judge, an accountant, and many other jobs where a bachelor degree is the mininum to start.

Also, I know an enterpeneur who went to college in the late 20's (he was too poor to go to college before then) to get a bachelor and masters degree to learn all he could about his field of operations - he didn't go to get a degree, but he went to "learn". Forty years later, today, he is a multi-billionaire and one of the top 400 richest guy in America.

Just because you didn't go to college, doesn't mean the rest of us who did are losers.

That's a great story! I agree that learning is very important.

If someone is passionate about going to college and learning alongside students and professors, then it may be a good idea. I also think the qualifications all of those jobs that you mentioned could be gained through extensive reading and apprenticeship programs. In fact, an accelerated and specialized learning program of a year or two combined with an apprenticeship program after that would be just as effective.

As Clayton Christensen mentions in his book The Innovator's Solution, there is a lot of dissatisfaction regarding the current university environment from students and employers. This makes it a prime category for disruptive innovation, and it will be interesting to see what forms of learning and qualification emerge within the next few years.

There's a lot of debate especially over the value of an MBA.

Maybe people just hire MBA students for their connections and networking skills. That's probably the only added value, since anybody can read the same textbooks as they use in the business schools of Harvard or Stanford.

[Sam988]

I think that the problem is the mindset.


Most people have to go to college because they will never study or learn as much on college if it was their own responsability to learn.

College obligates people to study and learn, hopefully about what they like and want to do.

[Brutha]

Maybe people just hire MBA students for their connections and networking skills. That's probably the only added value, since anybody can read the same textbooks as they use in the business schools of Harvard or Stanford.

Being good enough to get into Harvard in the first place is also a bonus.

In general you go to college to learn abstract thinking.

Maybe people just hire MBA students for their connections and networking skills. That's probably the only added value, since anybody can read the same textbooks as they use in the business schools of Harvard or Stanford.

But you are doing more than reading books. Learning advanced mathematics from books is a lot harder (=requires more time) than having a teacher that can explain it to you.

[kenakari]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Also, I know an enterpeneur who went to college in the late 20's (he was too poor to go to college before then) to get a bachelor and masters degree to learn all he could about his field of operations - he didn't go to get a degree, but he went to "learn". Forty years later, today, he is a multi-billionaire and one of the top 400 richest guy in America.
.

I like this example. I learned most of my accounting skills "on the job" so to speak, but going to classes showed me different and sometimes better ways to do things. Plus, the profession requires you to get that piece of paper before you are deemed competent enough to sign off on a public company's accounts in more than one continent - the paper can give you options you may not have otherwise.

A college degree (or lack thereof) does not guarantee you'll spend your life as an employee - and if a job gives you the chance to serve others in a field that gives you joy, how does that make you a loser?

[Boreas]

I think college is like most anything, it's value is dependent on what you bring to the table. If you don't persue the right paths, you won't end up at the right destinations.

I do agree with the general sentiment that college should not automatically equal a good job. I also feel that many young people go to college because they don't know what else to do, and that is where they end up. To me it would be better if they travel the world, or work, from ages 18-22 or 24, then go to college when they are ready to learn something they know interests them, and have more wisdom to choose if it is the right thing to do. This is the system in many countries in Europe and perhaps elsewhere.

[Zukin]

Since there are a lot of web developers and bloggers here, I though you might find this relevant:
A List Apart: Articles: Findings From the Web Design Survey

Increased educational attainment generally appears to correspond to increased earning in our sample; we find smaller percentages in the lower earning categories and larger percentages in the upper earning categories as the education level increases. In that context, using a weighted-average
approach to the analysis, we can make some additional observations:
There is only a slight increase in earning from high school graduates to junior college graduates, and a similarly slight increase from bachelor’s degrees to master’s degrees. The increases in earnings from junior college degrees to bachelor’s degrees and from master’s degrees to doctoral degrees are more significant.

A significantly greater percentage of respondents with doctorates earn over $100,000 than do respondents with any other level of educational attainment, although the total number of doctorates is very small: under 400, and less than 1% of the survey responses.

Among respondents indicating “no degree,” there are greater percentages at the lowest and the highest earning categories when compared to those with a bachelor’s degree.

I thought that last point was very interesting. What I'm inferring from that finding is that people who don't have a degree (at least in the web development world) seem to be split between those who are less skilled and those who have maximized their income by identifying and gaining valuable skills that can be developed without a degree.

[Boreas]