Money Comparison between me and Steve Pavlina

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

It's not, Roxy, you're overreacting.

While I would most likely not have batted an eyelid at the comment you adressed RR, I agree that dismissing her feelings about it is not cool. She felt sexually uncomfortable and abused by the comment, and she is entitled to that feeling. Please respect that, even if you feel the comment was nothing to get upset about.

All too often we dismiss the feelings of abuse victims, regardless of the nature of their abuse, and it's a step further in maintaining circles of abuse.
I know you're a good guy, AG, and most likely meant no harm - this is the kind of stuff we tend to do all the time until we take the conscious decision not to. I'm sure that because you're a good guy you'll agree that human interactions, flirting, teasing are a lot more fun when everybody is happy and enthusiastic about being a participant, right?

[roxyruby]

why I felt uncomfortable about the comment:

*I have a boyfriend, I am not single
*My boyfriend wouldn't like it for me to have a male friend calling me "my beautiful" and "my lady"
*It feels like a person saying "my beautiful" and "my lady" is subtly "claiming you" as a sort of romantic or sexual partner with no consideration or consent from the other person. So a bit like psychological manipulation.
Otherwise, since you're a close friend it could have been totally innocent just meant in a friendly, non-romantic loving way. But I didn't know your intent.

[Andrew Gubb]

These (and many others) are examples of invalidation of feelings. And invalidation of feelings IS emotional abuse.

I'm not invalidating your feelings Roxy. I'm stating the facts as I see them: you are overreacting. As in, you are misinterpreting me or the situation and having a reaction that is disproportionate to it.

Now let me critique you in turn as we are being open with our feelings. I think that calling me a sexual harasser like that is aggressive and unpleasant. Dictionary.com defines harassment as:

to disturb persistently; torment, as with troubles or cares; bother continually; pester; persecute.

If I were tormenting you or bothering you continually that would be quite grave and you'd be justified to respond as you did. However, I have called you "beautiful" once and then "my lady" a second time thinking that "my lady" was completely unsexual (playful yes, but I am playful, and this has nothing to do with sexuality - I call men "good sir"). I didn't know you disliked being called that so any crime I've committed is basically ignorance of your boundaries. If I accidentally stumble across your boundaries you correct me and there are no hard feelings.

There is no call to attack me for this.

I hope you can see I care for you as a friend and that I've never had any intention to cross any of your personal boundaries. I am also not attacking you now, I'm simply marking my own boundaries. I don't want to be called a harasser and I'd be glad to call you by whatever name you want, but please don't attack me in the meantime.

[Andrew Gubb]

you'll agree that human interactions, flirting, teasing are a lot more fun when everybody is happy and enthusiastic about being a participant, right?

Dude, are you suggesting I actually might not feel that way?

[Cochonette]

I agree with Andrew, and that is an excellent response. I am a pretty sensitive person a lot of the time, and I have been told "you are overly sensitive" before, and that was a stupid thing for someone to say to someone they think is overly sensitive, as if that's somehow going to improve matter (other than making me realize this person wasn't worth my time). But being told "you are overreacting" doesn't sound invalidating. That's a momentary action that can be quickly analyzed and changed if it is true.

[aelle]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Dude, are you suggesting I actually might not feel that way?

I am certain you feel that way on an intellectual level. But it's worth checking once in a while that our spontaneous actions are actually aligned with our ideals, and in this case, actively working towards a world where everyone respects and enjoys consent. The reminder is not specifically for you, it's for everyone, myself included.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

I'm not invalidating your feelings Roxy. I'm stating the facts as I see them: you are overreacting. As in, you are misinterpreting me or the situation and having a reaction that is disproportionate to it.

Now let me critique you in turn as we are being open with our feelings. I think that calling me a sexual harasser like that is aggressive and unpleasant. Dictionary.com defines harassment as:



If I were tormenting you or bothering you continually that would be quite grave and you'd be justified to respond as you did. However, I have called you "beautiful" once and then "my lady" a second time thinking that "my lady" was completely unsexual (playful yes, but I am playful, and this has nothing to do with sexuality - I call men "good sir"). I didn't know you disliked being called that so any crime I've committed is basically ignorance of your boundaries. If I accidentally stumble across your boundaries you correct me and there are no hard feelings.

There is no call to attack me for this.

I hope you can see I care for you as a friend and that I've never had any intention to cross any of your personal boundaries. I am also not attacking you now, I'm simply marking my own boundaries. I don't want to be called a harasser and I'd be glad to call you by whatever name you want, but please don't attack me in the meantime.

when and where did I call you a sexual harasser? Didn't I just say "that is sexual harassment"?

I don't think you are a sexual harasser, just what you said to me in those 2 forum posts seemed like sexual harassment and I was pointing that out.

& you didn't call me beautiful you called me "my beautiful"

AG I am not attacking you. I didn't decide oh there's AG I think I will attack him and what he said in this thread. I felt abused and sexually harassed, maybe by a misunderstanding or maybe not, but that's how I felt, and I was standing up for my self.

When you called me "my beautiful" and I said "do you really think thats acceptable?" in the next post to me you called me "my lady" and I thought you were deliberately continuing on in calling me "my" something like you could call me anything you wanted even if it was unacceptable to me. But I might have misunderstood, maybe that wasn't your intention.

What was your intent when you talked to me like that AG?

*Hug*

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

when and where did I call you a sexual harasser? Didn't I just say "that is sexual harassment"?

The difference is slight and it doesn't change my argument.

& you didn't call me beautiful you called me "my beautiful"

Again, doesn't change the argument.

and I was standing up for my self.

OK, but you acted as if what I was doing was much worse than it was.

What was your intent when you talked to me like that AG?

I've already mentioned calling you "my lady" was playful.

As for "my beautiful" it was slightly flirtatious but more affection in my opinion. Most people even with boyfriends wouldn't have an issue with it. Perhaps I could do with observing it and being more cautious about these things, but it was simply a misunderstading.

What else could it be?

Do you think I want to hurt you?

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

The difference is slight and it doesn't change my argument.
Again, doesn't change the argument.
OK, but you acted as if what I was doing was much worse than it was.

I've already mentioned calling you "my lady" was playful.

As for "my beautiful" it was slightly flirtatious but more affection in my opinion. Most people even with boyfriends wouldn't have an issue with it. Perhaps I could do with observing it and being more cautious about these things, but it was simply a misunderstading.

What else could it be?

Do you think I want to hurt you?

Again, doesn't change the argument.

to me calling someone my beautiful v beautiful have very different meanings[/quote]

OK, but you acted as if what I was doing was much worse than it was.

Did I or did we have a misunderstanding and different meanings of words?

Most people even with boyfriends wouldn't have an issue with it.

ya but my boyfriend is possessive and might get mad at me if I went along with a male friend calling me that

Anyway, it's all good now. I am sorry if I hurt you AG, I didn't mean to

[Andrew Gubb]

S'okay, no hard feelings and I hope there are none for you.

Light

Andrew

[Cochonette]

my boyfriend is possessive and might get mad at me if I went along with a male friend calling me that

Honestly, I think your boyfriend has a problem, not that my opinion matters much. Possessiveness is bad. I would feel far more sexually/emotionally threatened if someone actually wanted to possess me than someone playfully and insignificantly saying "my" to me. I don't understand why you think that actual possessiveness from your boyfriend is more acceptable than something unserious from someone else... after all, you said that saying "my beautiful" is unacceptable even before the fact that you have a boyfriend. Well, on second thought, I guess you could say you gave him permission to be possessive first.

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Cochonette

Honestly, I think your boyfriend has a problem, not that my opinion matters much. Possessiveness is bad. I would feel far more sexually/emotionally threatened if someone actually wanted to possess me than someone playfully and insignificantly saying "my" to me. I don't understand why you think that actual possessiveness from your boyfriend is more acceptable than something unserious from someone else... after all, you said that saying "my beautiful" is unacceptable even before the fact that you have a boyfriend. Well, on second thought, I guess you could say you gave him permission to be possessive.

Possessiveness in a relationship can be very hot

I think there is a definite difference between some stranger or a vague friend saying something that can be seen as possessive or your boyfriend. Even if she mentioned her boyfriend only after the fact, doesn't mean that she didn't have a boyfriend before She just didn't mention it until I asked for more details on the subject

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Possessiveness in a relationship can be very hot

I think there is a definite difference between some stranger or a vague friend saying something that can be seen as possessive or your boyfriend. Even if she mentioned her boyfriend only after the fact, doesn't mean that she didn't have a boyfriend before She just didn't mention it until I asked for more details on the subject

Ya lol. Most people don't like possessiveness but it really fulfills me like I'm really special to him & he really wants me & wants to protect me so much that I'm not allowed to flirt with other guys.
It's acceptable in our relationship cause we both like it.

[Gene]

It's my impression that the phrase, "my lady" was used as a measure of respect from both men and women to those of a higher or more important social class or in a formal setting. All in all from a perspective of the last century it would be a term of respect and no disrespectful.

However when a person finds being called by the phrase distasteful I would cease calling her by the honorific.

[Angela]

Roxyruby, you'd better stay away from the Renaissance Faire!

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Angela

Roxyruby, you'd better stay away from the Renaissance Faire!

It was because he called me "my beautiful" and then I indicated this wasn't appropriate. He then continued by calling me "my lady" and I thought he was deliberately calling me "My.." something so was abusing me.

But I misunderstood his meanings and intentions so it is all good ^ ^

Just my mind playing up seeing someone as "attacking/disrespecting me"

[SatvikBeri]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

It was because he called me "my beautiful" and then I indicated this wasn't appropriate. He then continued by calling me "my lady" and I thought he was deliberately calling me "My.." something so was abusing me.

But I misunderstood his meanings and intentions so it is all good ^ ^

Just my mind playing up seeing someone as "attacking/disrespecting me"

Psst-as an outside observer, when I read "do you really think that's acceptable?", I actually thought you were being playful/flirtatious back. It would never have occurred to me that you were trying to get him to stop. You can try saying something like "Please stop, I'm not really comfortable with that" to be clear. Remember, this is the internet, so intent is *very* hard to read.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

It was because he called me "my beautiful" and then I indicated this wasn't appropriate. He then continued by calling me "my lady" and I thought he was deliberately calling me "My.." something so was abusing me.

Yes, I understand. I was referring to what's known as "speaking forsoothly," which is done at Renaissance Faires -- in which "my lord/my lady" is used quite frequently. It doesn't imply possession; it's only a linguistic convention. If you get tetchy every time someone uses it, you may be teased mercilessly, and there are no teasers like Ren Faire teasers to turn your cheeks pink! Also, if your boyfriend were to get upset by guys flirting with you, or remarking upon more or less intimate portions of your anatomy, he would spend the entire day in a tremendous state of upset -- and will almost certainly result in more teasing!

That's why I recommend that you stay away from Renaissance Faires.

It's too bad, though, cuz it's so much fun to flirt lightheartedly and playfully, without making it all meaningful and significant. Not for everyone, though!

[Andrew Gubb]

Originally Posted by Gene

However when a person finds being called by the phrase distasteful I would cease calling her by the honorific.

DUDE

ROXY

Can you see how calling me a sexual harrasser has made people think I've repeatedly called you something after you told me not to? That's just what Gene seems to have understood, correct me if I'm wrong Gene.

You asked me to stop once and I did. So I have not harrassed anyone! But now people assume I have!

Do you see why I have a problem with this?

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

DUDE

ROXY

Can you see how calling me a sexual harrasser has made people think I've repeatedly called you something after you told me not to? That's just what Gene seems to have understood, correct me if I'm wrong Gene.

You asked me to stop once and I did. So I have not harrassed anyone! But now people assume I have!

Do you see why I have a problem with this?

sexual harassment was the best description I had with my vocabulary and knowledge for how I felt based on what I believed was your intent at the time.

AG I don't think you're a sexual harasser! and I did not call you a sexual harrasser. Where did I say that?

I used to say things to my boyfriend that I found out were emotionally abusive, that doesn't make me an emotional abuser, only that my behavior was emotionally abusive and when I learned about it I stopped.

I've explained this a few times already but I believed you continued on after I said "do you really think thats appropriate?" but there was a misunderstanding on my part

@Satvikberri yes I should have been more clear instead of saying "do you really think thats appropriate???"

but it was a misunderstanding so I'm not accusing you of anything now AG

[Andrew Gubb]

Fine Ruby but I can still have a problem with you accusing me of sexual harassment!

It makes you a victim in people's eyes and me a horrible ogre attacking you.

That's how they see it!

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Fine Ruby but I can still have a problem with you accusing me of sexual harassment!

It makes you a victim in people's eyes and me a horrible ogre attacking you.

That's how they see it!

I see us as equals. How do you know thats how other people are seeing me and you? I am not accusing you of sexual harassment anymore AG, It was a misunderstanding on my part at the time, a distortion of your intent in my mind, but talking about it made it more clear.

Maybe I should not have labeled what I thought you meant towards me as sexual harassment so fast, I don't know, I'm just saying now I didn't have better words at the time to describe how I felt about it (even though I was wrong in my mind).

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Angela

Yes, I understand. I was referring to what's known as "speaking forsoothly," which is done at Renaissance Faires -- in which "my lord/my lady" is used quite frequently. It doesn't imply possession; it's only a linguistic convention. If you get tetchy every time someone uses it, you may be teased mercilessly, and there are no teasers like Ren Faire teasers to turn your cheeks pink! Also, if your boyfriend were to get upset by guys flirting with you, or remarking upon more or less intimate portions of your anatomy, he would spend the entire day in a tremendous state of upset -- and will almost certainly result in more teasing!

That's why I recommend that you stay away from Renaissance Faires.

It's too bad, though, cuz it's so much fun to flirt lightheartedly and playfully, without making it all meaningful and significant. Not for everyone, though!

It wasn't the words it was what I thought to be the meaning and intent of the words.

[Andrew Gubb]

Yeah. OK.

I'm just pissed off OK.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Yeah. OK.

I'm just pissed off OK.

If you're pissed off cause I did something intentionally harmful to you please let me know what this is?

Otherwise the way you were just speaking to me then sounded like psychological manipulation. It doesn't mean you're a bad person, it's a really common way to talk. But it's emotionally damaging/harmful.

According to Simon,[2] successful psychological manipulation primarily involves:
manipulator concealing aggressive intentions and behaviors
manipulator knowing the psychological vulnerabilities of the victim to determine what tactics are likely to be the most effective.
manipulator having a sufficient level of ruthlessness to have no qualms about causing harm to the victim if necessary.
Consequently the manipulation is likely to be covert (relational aggressive or passive aggressive).

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by Andrew Gubb

Fine Ruby but I can still have a problem with you accusing me of sexual harassment!

It makes you a victim in people's eyes and me a horrible ogre attacking you.

That's how they see it!

Andrew, I think most people do not see you as some horrible ogre attacking Roxyruby. I know I am not, for sure.

I am seeing somebody being flirty and fun, and another person being very sensitive. I'm seeing this very sensitive person (after a bit of trial and error) standing up for herself.

Now I'm seeing this flirty and fun person being very defensive and even dismissive of the very sensitive person's right to feel whatever it is that she feels....

All in all... I think this is a very simple miscommunication from both sides.

Neither side meant any harm and neither side actually did any harm.

Nobody is a victim here and nobody is a horrible ogre.

I'm applauding Roxyruby for standing up for herself. Not because I think you are a horrible ogre (I'm really starting to like that word!! ) but because I know that that is something she has been having troubles with. So, now when she is doing that, I see it as something positive for HER, not something against you!

I'd agree with you that FOR ME the reaction is entirely over reacting. But... I'm not Roxyruby. And I'm not pretending that I know exactly what she is feeling.

I do have a lot of empathy for her though. When I first started getting involved with the BDSM world and starting to admit that I felt submissive I was also extremely sensitive about everything and anything that I even vaguely perceived as trying to dominate me. Even a sweet and cute joke, or flirty comment would get me all high up in the trees... It takes a while to balance these feelings out.
As I'm understanding Roxy is at the beginning of her journey. As she continues it she will see what is acceptable behavior for her and done towards her and she'll learn how to use better words to describe her feelings.

[roxyruby]

Aw thanks for being supportive of me Sandra <3 Sandra honestly I think it boils down to being scared that my BF will get mad at me

like he checks my phone calls/messages etc sometimes and reads what I've been saying on the forums sometimes and gets angry easily cause of his worry about me flirting with or seeing another guy so like if he saw AG speaking to me like that he might get suspicious and think there's something going on and be mad at me

so that may be a reason why I seemed like I was "over-reacting" to others and being too serious.

[roxyruby]

I was thinking also maybe it's a difference in culture. Maybe in AG's country it is more acceptable to call a girl "my beautiful" and "my lady"

and maybe in Australia it's not as acceptable

[ssandra]

Originally Posted by roxyruby

like he checks my phone calls/messages etc sometimes and reads what I've been saying on the forums sometimes and gets angry easily cause of his worry about me flirting with or seeing another guy so like if he saw AG speaking to me like that he might get suspicious and think there's something going on and be mad at me

Does he get seriously angry at you, or is it play angry?

If he seriously gets angry at you, I'd suggest to him (maybe he'll read this ) to work on his self esteem. It is obvious from everybody here that you absolutely adore him. Just because some guy flirts with you, doesn't mean that 1. you'll leave him or 2. you are even flirting back.

And I do think it is important for you as well to consider not doing things because your boyfriend might get angry at you. But don't them because you know he doesn't like it, and to you it doesn't matter.
Small difference maybe, but the difference between a healthy relationship and an abusive relationship non the less.


Its been a big struggle in my life to see where I put my boundaries in my relationships regarding certain things. Not flirting, but other things. So I understand how this might feel difficult or even impossible, but I know that it isn't. And I also know that a relationship will only improve if you both come from a place of love and connection and not from anger and fear of anger.

[roxyruby]

Originally Posted by ssandra

Does he get seriously angry at you, or is it play angry?

If he seriously gets angry at you, I'd suggest to him (maybe he'll read this ) to work on his self esteem. It is obvious from everybody here that you absolutely adore him. Just because some guy flirts with you, doesn't mean that 1. you'll leave him or 2. you are even flirting back.

And I do think it is important for you as well to consider not doing things because your boyfriend might get angry at you. But don't them because you know he doesn't like it, and to you it doesn't matter.
Small difference maybe, but the difference between a healthy relationship and an abusive relationship non the less.


Its been a big struggle in my life to see where I put my boundaries in my relationships regarding certain things. Not flirting, but other things. So I understand how this might feel difficult or even impossible, but I know that it isn't. And I also know that a relationship will only improve if you both come from a place of love and connection and not from anger and fear of anger.

thank you Sandra, maybe I have some fears to work through of him being angry at me or not loving me

I know I've had the "if he's angry at me, it means my worth has been lowered as a human being" which used to be an unconscious belief, but now I know it's a belief that was /is causing me problems.

He gets seriously angry. Like I had some bruises on my legs from something (probably bumping into furniture as I walk past it, something that always happened to me)
and he would inspect the bruises wondering if it could have been caused by me doing stuff with another guy.
He'd be really serious looking me in the eye and getting very angry at the possibility of it. But soon enough he calms down and realizes it isn't rational & we hug & everything & everything is better.