Move to wilderness, anyone?

[TeroMiettunen.com]

I've come to realize that the universe is logically meaningless with almost 100% certainty, and thus the only thing that kept me going through normal life is gone. So now that I might just as well live happily instead of even vaguely normally, I find it too hard to enjoy life in the modern society, and the only option for me is to move into the wilderness with some other people. Obviously doing that alone would be just plain stupid, because humans need other humans around.

I've been thinking this through for a long time now and I've tried many life changes and now the only option left for me is the wilderness, however that is not an option if I'm alone, so I'm looking for people who would come with me to a deserted island or uninhabitated lands, where we can do what we will and the only thing we have to worry about is our survival (if that). Humans are after all meant to live in the wilderness. I'm not going to want anyone there who just wants to try it out. I have to ask for you to be serious about abandoning whatever life you currently have for good, but if you later on decide that you want to get out of that island or whatever we move to, feel free.

I'm going to post this in multiple forums and so I ask that if you're interested, e-mail me (teroAT teromiettunen com) because I might not be reading any replies here. This is just the initiative, I have some details planned out but since just about everything else is flexible and not just up for me to decide, I left those out. I'm looking to move there within 2008, hopefully in a few months even.

If I can't find enough people to move with me, I'm still going to try changing my life some other way for the better (although it is quite useless), and thus I still care about encoding my e-mail address because of e-mail harvesters. ^^

[Angela]

Hey there -- good luck with your endeavor.

I just want to remind you of what you already know. When you arrive at the wilderness, the universe will still be "logically meaningless." Only then you'll be out in the meaningless wilderness of the universe with a bunch of relative strangers. Not that that's a bad thing.

Maybe you are thinking that the meaning of this move will be "Survival"? -- or maybe a test of your manhood or humanhood? Or do you feel that there is some other inherent meaning built into a quest like the one you're planning?

p.s.... You declare that "the universe is logically meaningless with almost 100% certainty, and later in the same post you assert that "humans are after all meant to live in the wilderness." Ooops! Inherent universal meaning! D'oh! You'd better get that sorted out before taking your party in the wilderness -- it's the sort of thing that undermines credibility in a wilderness trek or cult leader! (well, actually, "what humans are meant to do" is meaning that you make; the good news is that all meaning is meaning that you make -- so best wishes in making meaning that works well for you.)

Again, best wishes, even though you probably won't read this forum!

[TeroMiettunen.com]

To be honest, I posted that "I might not look at replies" to avoid getting some quick idiotic replies but seeing a smart reply like yours makes me want to reply back to you, so here goes:

What I meant with the "humans meant to live in the wilderness" is that our evolutionairy status is still such, not that it is any more meaningful to live in the wilderness and the only people I want to join me are people who think they'll be more happy in the wilderness. I sure don't need to be the leader of this group. Whoever wants to join doesn't even need to have the same beliefs as me, all that matters is that he is willing to change his/her life like that.

Assuming that the universe is meaningless (which is a reasonable assumption) I'm just as worthless as a grain of salt, and living in the wilderness doesn't change that.

[Angela]

But "humans are meant to live in the wilderness" is meaning, evolutionary or otherwise. You contradict your own statement that "the universe is meaningless."

"I'm just as worthless as a grain of salt" is also meaning.

You can and do make meaning all the time. You'll do that in the wilderness just as you do in the city. Why not create some meaning for this adventure that is fun and inspiring (for yourself and for others), rather than as an escape from "normal" life?

Have you seen the movie, "My Dinner with Andre"? I think you might enjoy Andre's stories about getting away from normal life, creating meaning, and loving his life.

[TeroMiettunen.com]

I'm sure that you get my point, everything is meaningless, no need to be a smartass with your language skills. English isn't my primary language so I have to simplify my statements a bit, perhaps that shows, perhaps not.

Creating meaning is logically impossible, you can't just invent a logical meaning to the universe or even to yourself, it has to pre-exist and you can only discover it and thus that Andre movie doesn't sound too good.

If you want a better explanation why I think the way I do, look at the latest post at my blog

[Angela]

Originally Posted by TeroMiettunen.com

I'm sure that you get my point, everything is meaningless, no need to be a smartass with your language skills. English isn't my primary language so I have to simplify my statements a bit, perhaps that shows, perhaps not.

Creating meaning is logically impossible, you can't just invent a logical meaning to the universe or even to yourself, it has to pre-exist and you can only discover it and thus that Andre movie doesn't sound too good.

If you want a better explanation why I think the way I do, look at the latest post at my blog

There you go again with your making meaning: "You are a smartass with your language skills." and "you just can't invent a logical meaning, not even to yourself, it has to pre-exist." Don't you see that that is all meaning that your consciousness is making up? And you are stating it like it's objective fact. I love it!

[seeker5]

Have you seen the American movie "Into the Wild?". The guy basically wants to do what you're doing, except he's doing it alone and for very different reasons then you're doing it. Very touching movie, I recommend it if you haven't seen it.

[Adelina]

Or Lord of the Flies.
Or The Beach.
and one of those tv shows?

Have fun!!!!!

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Adelina

Or Lord of the Flies.

Oh man, I don't know about that, as I had nightmares after I saw THAT movie!

[Dave Kaminski]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Have you seen the American movie "Into the Wild?". The guy basically wants to do what you're doing, except he's doing it alone and for very different reasons then you're doing it. Very touching movie, I recommend it if you haven't seen it.

Watched it today. Wow, excellent movie.

The ending... well... that's life. Live the dream!

Watch that movie it might help inspire you to really live in the wilderness. It's inspired me to LIVE a bit more(always possible) instead of just doing the usual.

[seeker5]

Originally Posted by Dave Kaminski

Watched it today. Wow, excellent movie.

The ending... well... that's life. Live the dream!

Indeed, that's what I got out of it! I had the movie running over my mind for a few weeks after I saw it, which is unusual long for me. Even now, writing this I felt some chill as I remember how I felt after watching it.

[Angela]

One of our special genius talents as human beings is creating limitations for ourselves (so that we can have the fun of growing out of them.)

In my experience, if you have a limitation around other humans, like the OP's:

I find it too hard to enjoy life in the modern society, and the only option for me is to move into the wilderness with some other people.

... that limitation, which your consciousness created, isn't going to just *poof* disappear just because there are fewer humans around (a smaller representation of 'modern society'), but rather, it's more likely to be magnified.

I'm not saying that's a bad thing or that you shouldn't do it; I'm just saying that changing your geographic location isn't going to change your emotional landscape. People who "think they will be more happy in the wilderness" are indulging in Someday Thinking -- that is, putting off until later what they actually have the power to generate right now. You might very well feel that moving to the wilderness is the right choice for you in loving your life, but if you make choices in which your ways of being (like "happiness") depend on external circumstances (like "living in the wilderness and getting away from modern society"), it's like tossing your personal power to the winds.

Again, not to say you shouldn't do it. If it were me, I would generate the happiness first, and then go.

Watch out for The Beast!

[Dan.Linehan]

In my opinion, nature has much more meaning and balance than any human construct.

Into the Wild illustrates that brilliantly when it starkly juxtaposes natural scenes with urban living in a few of the sequences.

I have lived through much, and now I think I have found what is needed for happiness. A quiet secluded life in the country, with the possibility of being useful to people whom it is easy to do good, and who are not accustomed to have it done to them; then work which one hopes may be of some use; then rest, nature, books, music, love for one's neighbor - such is my idea of happiness. And then, on top of all that, you for a mate, and children, perhaps-what more can the heart of a man desire?

- Leo Tolstoy.

[Dan.Linehan]

Originally Posted by Angela

I'm just saying that changing your geographic location isn't going to change your emotional landscape.

Not true. Some places are certainly more hospitable and peaceful than others, and living somewhere more peaceful can definitely change your emotional landscape.

One has to have seen and felt, at some point in their lives, the beauty, intricacy and majesty of nature to be able to incorporate that peace and joy with them in their consciousness.

[Angela]

A geographic move might influence your inner landscape, but only you can change it.

[Eric Revelin]

Originally Posted by TeroMiettunen.com

I'm sure that you get my point, everything is meaningless, no need to be a smartass with your language skills. English isn't my primary language so I have to simplify my statements a bit, perhaps that shows, perhaps not.

Creating meaning is logically impossible, you can't just invent a logical meaning to the universe or even to yourself, it has to pre-exist and you can only discover it and thus that Andre movie doesn't sound too good.

If you want a better explanation why I think the way I do, look at the latest post at my blog

You can't have no meaning without meaning. Negative can't exist without positive. The presence of one implies, nay, requires the other. That's the way our logic works. These are all just concepts. Meaning is just a concept. Logic isn't a tool you can use to determine what's meaningful, logic is what you use to create coherency amongst a set of ideas or principles. Logically, nothing is meaningful. Nothing is meaningless either. Whichever conclusion you arrive at will depend on something other than logic, even if logic is a big factor in your choice.

Stated differently, logic is useless without imagination, and imagination is useless unless you're tapped into something within you that drives you to keep envisioning something new. Forget about meaning; that's something the human intellect isn't built to grasp on its own. ("The poet asks only to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splites."-G.K. Chesterson) Your heart isn't just a worthless lump of meat in your chest that keeps you alive, it's the symbol of your core humanity. If you want a reason to live that's what you've gotta turn to.

[schola]

Originally Posted by Angela

A geographic move might influence your inner landscape, but only you can change it.

Eckhart Tolle felt compelled to move to California while writing his first book. Later he realized it was because the energy vibrations there were more conducive to his intentions than dreary old England was.

Just some food for thought.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by schola

Eckhart Tolle felt compelled to move to California while writing his first book. Later he realized it was because the energy vibrations there were more conducive to his intentions than dreary old England was.

Just some food for thought.

Yup, I've moved location several times and the new location has influenced or inspired me, too.

But Tolle wasn't expecting an external circumstance to make him happy. When you try to source your way of being from outside yourself, you are dribbling away your power.

[ladybug]

Originally Posted by seeker5

Have you seen the American movie "Into the Wild?". The guy basically wants to do what you're doing, except he's doing it alone and for very different reasons then you're doing it. Very touching movie, I recommend it if you haven't seen it.

Yep

[ManfredKo]

Hi,

anyone who want to go into the wilderness - I would highly suggest to check out "Walden" (free at: Walden by Henry David Thoreau - Project Gutenberg) and for more practical reasons: U.S. Army Survival Guide which has very good information on wilderness survival (also free: https://akocomm.us.army.mil/usapa/do.../fm3_05x70.pdf)

Cheers

Manfred

[anamoly]

John Bryson's "Walk in the Woods" also hilarious.

Have you considered simply trying out the Appalachian trail to start with?

[Dan.Linehan]

You mean Bill Bryson, right? I just read that a couple months ago! I second the recommendation.. it's a great story from a very sarcastic and funny narrator.

A Walk in the Woods: Rediscovering America on the Appalachian Trail

[apuzzle]

"human construct".. Yea..

Some thoughts about thinking:
Formal logic is just a tool to make useful conclusions -- which will lead to optimization of your own utility (in the very end.. somehow).
So your understanding of logical is corrupt if it doesn't server you!
That utility-function/purpose (algorithm to determine what is useful) might be formed by someone else.

Utility is a concept that you can apply when building AI, & I find it more generic.
Utility can be mapped by a single number/variable, & it can be calculated by a single process, which have sub-processes, like: find-utility-of-object, find-utility-of-habit.
It can also be translated into evolutionary programming (utility=fitness, utility-function=fitness-function).

Thinking that utility-functions are transfered only from other entities is to exclude too much detail (from what you're saying in your blog).
Especially the knowledge of the mind/brain.

The goal of finding objective purpose is useless !

The forest:
You want challenge? Purpose?
You made this decision by the conclusion that we evolved into hunter-gatherers, & our purpose is therefore the specific actions of hunter-gatherers?

Or is it the need to get away from society that drives you?

Anyways: you have created your own corrupt logic to serve your (former) purpose, & now this logic/habits of thinking clearly no longer serve your happiness.
Get reconnected with yourself! Before getting anywhere...

Paraphrasing:
Your theory that you will get happiness by following your own constructed logic: did it work?
Or do you have to start all over?

Be flexible & dynamic & take all factors into consideration! But be courageous & experiment!
Or you will just think & think, until it leads you further into depression / corruption.

[bubadutep75]

I am not sure why this thread went from an awesome idea to a movie rating but the thought of leaving the world as it is now to go back to the way we as humans have lived for thousands of years has been a dream of mine most of my life. My favorite book as a child was robinson crusoe, and as an adult if anything ever happened to my wife I would sell everthing and live like we originally did. If you mention this today people look at you like you are crazy, but there shallow minds don't realize that until the last few hundred years, that is how life was, my grandparents lived like that for crying out loud with no electricity, and if times were hard they packed up and found a better location with more resources. Not to mention, in most 3rd world countries it is still like this today. I am all for the idea of getting a small group and getting the hell out of here.

[Rockchick26]

I've often fantasized about doing this, usually on days when I am so sick of people all I can think about is being alone for miles with no living soul around. Not sure how long I would last being happy like that, but I sure do have that feeling a lot. But it only comes when I have moments of disgust and irritation with my fellow human beings. But there are also a lot of moments where I intensely long for a deep connection with someone,and over the internet isn't enough

My favorite tv show is Lost, and I often wonder how cool it would be to be thrown onto a deserted island with a big group of other people and be forced to create a new life there with them. You wonder if it would eventually turn into the way modern society is anyway, i mean if we all started out that way, we eventually evolved into this crazy existence, so maybe that would happen on this island too.

I want to check out those movies suggested up there. I'm very curious what would happen if someone were to live completely alone for an extended period of time. They would have to go insane though, or at the very least draw faces on stuff and start talking to them

I think the solution is moderation, the perfect life would be for everyone to have their own plot of land acres wide so they had solitude and privacy every day and then everyone could easily get to a well populated area whenever they get lonely. That's what I really want. But I agree with whoever said people look at you like you're crazy when you talk about wanting to be far away from everyone. I guess those are the people who are so "addicted" to having others around that they just think it's wrong to not need others as much as they do.

I dont really know where I'm going with this, just stating my thoughts!

[Aleksander Krstic]

You discusting beast how are you ever going to pull it off!

On another note though, have fun and good luck with your endeavor!

[ballhit2]

Read the "How To Drop Out" essay by Ran Prieur, with his updated full disclaimer.

[Andrew Brunelle]

I've read the How to Drop Out essay many times and it seems like something I could do. We need time alone and time with others. It helps to have friends and family if you need help or just need someone to converse with. It's hard to be alone all the time. But sometimes, being alone is wonderful. So going into the woods every now and then for a few days could be fun

[bparry]

This is something that always sounds appealing to me, especially after watching 'into the wild' a few years back. I've never really felt strongly connected to other people through anything but nature I feel a huge affinity for and I often get bursts of enthusiasm to do the year of Thoreau in Walden, although I inevitably get stuck with finding a place to do it.

The closest I've come so far is the last 6 months, where I moved to France for university - I've spoken to my parents maybe 3 or 4 times, and even less to the people I would have called friends back home. The funny thing is, as soon as I could speak the language I realised I was living the same life here, just with different people playing out the characters. Oh well, I've got 6 months free now to travel, so maybe along the way I'll just disappear somewhere to live my Walden year

[Leondegrance]

Sounds like fun, until government planes spot your cabin and start charging you property taxes. That's if they don't evict you altogether: "get your ass back on them city streets, boy! What do you think this is, a free country?"