The Trouble with Now

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Sometimes writing it down can help you "hear" yourself more clearly and see connections that are more nebulous when they're just floating around in your head. I hope you are keeping a journal -- I'll bet you'll find it valuable later (*in the future, which doesn't exist now. )

Oh yes, I keep a journal! I'm actually enjoying sharing this stuff, just getting more comfortable with going public...

Here's a small one, in this thread I was talking about dolphins, randomly. Then I thought, "I just came up with that. I wonder if I can actually see a reference to dolphins". Didn't see anything online, realized I shouldn't "look", it will just show up.

After I finished posting, I put in a David Bowie DVD I just bought. The production company was Maya Vision... which gave me a chuckle. I was watching the documentary segment... wasn't intending to see him perform any songs... but a little while later they cut into him peforming "Heroes", and in that song there is a line "I wish I could swim, like the dolphins can swim.." so I got my dolphin.



But anyway, I don't mean to derail the thread.... but all this stuff is happening now!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

For me they are not the same point:

Point 1 - the past can exist in the present through reminders of events (painful or pleasureful) and often through physical evidence - a scar, a lost arm. It is not a fantasy or figment of the imagination.

Point 2 - Your reaction to the past events (always your choice), painful or pleasureful.

An event and your reaction to the event are not the same. They are 2 distinct happenings.

My only point ever was that the past is not a fantasy or non-event. It has bearing and influence on the present whether it's good, bad or indifferent. How a person chooses to referrence it is not the issue. That's a separate point.

I understand what you're saying, Tam9, and I disagree. You are saying (Point 1) the past can exist in the present through reminders or physical evidence. I am saying the those reminders and "physical evidence" are not the past at all. They are indeed (Point 2) your reactions to (or a result of) an event. The event does not exist, only your memory and thoughts about the event. There are outcomes of an event, but they do not equal the past. You seem to be saying that the memories and the reactions and the issues around an event actually ARE the past, and that the past therefore exists now. But no.

Although I now have a scar on my knee from where Scotty chased me when I was five and I fell on the brick wall, Scotty is not chasing me and I am not falling now. That event does not exist, except as a thought in my head (which I have called a fantasy, but that word bugs you, so I'll just call it a thought. Nevertheless, it does not exist, except as a thought.) If I wanted to, I could choose to try to relive that accident every day by visualizing it, feeling a phantom pain of hitting the brick, and refreshing my anger at Scotty for chasing me. But that would still not be the past being present. It would be a woman, not a 5 year old girl, filtering her memories through the years and experiences, and making a choice to hold onto old pain. In other words, it would be me in the Now. Not the past.

I'm not averse to using what I've learned from that incident and filed in my unconscious (since I don't need to keep the incident or its resulting pain, only what I've learned, in my "filing cabinet"). So that might affect my future (which does not currently exist, except as a thought); maybe someday I'll be jumping over a low brick wall and I'll take special care to stay upright.

But I think Point 2 contradicts Point 1. As you said, the event and your reaction (or remembrance) of it are two different things, but you are saying that the past lives in the present. And I say, that is an illusion (cuz I know you hate the "f" word ).

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

I And I say, that is an illusion (cuz I know you hate the "f" word ).

You're funny! I enjoy discussing this with you. Now back to business.

1. From my point of view the past exists in a variety of contexts. It is no more an illusion than the present. Seconds are fleeting and they become the past instantaneously. I understand that for you it doesn't exist and that's OK.

2. How we react to past events is independent of the events themselves. An event takes place. There could be reactions from many sources. They have no effect on the event. For example an explosion occurs. Some people are killed, some are hurt, some aren't touched at all. Everyone has a reaction, many different from each other. This does not change the occurence of the explosion. The event is the happening. How you react is the emotional response to it.

3. I don't find it practical to deny the past because, as even you have said, you can learn from it. To disavow it or renounce its influence on the present is a form of denial. Why to we have Memorial Day? Why is it good to honor past heroic deeds and people? There are events that we should remember and hold in our hearts. Do those 'pasts' not exist in our memories? What's wrong with that?

Where I do agree with everyone is that you can't let the past ruin your enjoyment of present. That's much different from saying it doesn't or didn't exist. I think to deny it is as harmful as letting it affect your life adversely.

[Iff]

What happened in the past does not exist in the present, it only exists in the past. It is not the question of "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?" but rather "if a tree fell in the forest yesterday, does it make a sound today?".

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

You're funny! I enjoy discussing this with you. Now back to business. ...

3. I don't find it practical to deny the past because, as even you have said, you can learn from it. To disavow it or renounce its influence on the present is a form of denial. Why to we have Memorial Day? Why is it good to honor past heroic deeds and people? There are events that we should remember and hold in our hearts. Do those 'pasts' not exist in our memories? What's wrong with that ....

I'm having fun with this conversation, too, Tam9.

Just to be clear: I've said it before in this thread and I'll say it again, I do not deny the past. Neither do I disavow it or renounce its influence on the present. Those things are entirely different from saying what I say: The past does not exist now.

I don't even remember why we celebrate Memorial Day, so for me that holiday consists of a very "in the moment" experience of the first heat of summer. One thing I can appreciate about past events is that it sets me up for appreciation of seasonal probable future events. I am good with anticipation, but I don't want to live there. Mostly because it doesn't exist.

And yes, it's good to celebrate deeds and people who have done things. Why? Because we're celebrating and encouraging qualities represented by our memories of those people and deeds that we wish to nurture NOW -- courage, love, peace, sympathy.

We have thoughts (including memories) about the past and future, but we don't have the past and future. I will concede to you that you are calling your thoughts about the past and future, "the past" and "the future". But all they are thoughts, that's all "the past" and "the future" are. Once more, I'm not denying that events that you can remember happened, and I'm not telling you they have no influence on your current moment. They just don't exist.

There is no then now. It's all now now.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Iff

What happened in the past does not exist in the present, it only exists in the past. It is not the question of "if a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?" but rather "if a tree fell in the forest yesterday, does it make a sound today?".

Hehe I've got a better one........unless you're there to observe the tree, the forest and it fallig down, none of exists and it doesn't matter

How does that kind of thinking help us live our lives? Well, it's the same as the past and living only in the moment, nothing and I mean nothing matters unless it's in your awareness. This means all we have to choose, think and even worry about (if we choose that) is what we're creating in our lives right now.

The only thing we can ever be 100% sure of is.............. that we exist and we exist right now.........everything else doesn't matter and to give it thought and emotion is wasteful because that thought and emotion could better be used buidling the most important part of your life which is.........right now

Max

[Maguru]

Hi Max, how can you be sure that we are only creating in the moment? How do you know we didn't create our futures as wonderfully imaginative children?
All thoughts, beliefs and emotions are creative and we develop them from day one. As we have more experiences, we have more emotions, thoughts and beliefs. Some are in the sub-consciousness and therefore we are not aware. But lack of awareness does not mean lack of creation.
However, they are still a creative force stemming from childhood. We know of repeated behavioural patterns or being on the same old wheel, could it be because we are still creating in unawareness from our past experiences?

Originally Posted by Max Power

Hehe I've got a better one........unless you're there to observe the tree, the forest and it fallig down, none of exists and it doesn't matter

How does that kind of thinking help us live our lives? Well, it's the same as the past and living only in the moment, nothing and I mean nothing matters unless it's in your awareness. This means all we have to choose, think and even worry about (if we choose that) is what we're creating in our lives right now.

The only thing we can ever be 100% sure of is.............. that we exist and we exist right now.........everything else doesn't matter and to give it thought and emotion is wasteful because that thought and emotion could better be used buidling the most important part of your life which is.........right now

Max

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Maguru

Hi Max, how can you be sure that we are only creating in the moment?

All I can write is how I see it, if you want to see it differently, then that's fine, but to answer your question from my POV the possibility of creating the moment somewhere outside of the moment doesn't seem to make a lot of sense too me. The only way that makes sense (too me) would be if consciousness, before choosing a reality based existance would have known exactly how the whole existance would play out.

The idea that we create in the moment and only in the moment is supposed to be empowering for it puts you in more control so you don't have to worry about anything except right now, so you focus and create better because you're always observing in the moment.

It also helps you stop regretting the past and fearing the future, for you only observe right now, if there's a problem in the right now, then you solve it right now, but observing a solution right now, it's pointless worrying about something that hasn't happened yet but if you do worry, you actually empower the thing that hasn't happened yet.

All thought is creative, as you observe you create.

Works for me

[Bene]

deleted as its already been answered

[Bene]

Originally Posted by Max Power

...til you accept what you've created and move on to a place where having no arm is going to be a good thing, like only one hand to wash

I laughed so hard at that ! hahaha

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Hehe I've got a better one........unless you're there to observe the tree, the forest and it fallig down, none of exists and it doesn't matter

When ever I hear this "if a tree falls and noone is there to hear it, does it make a noise?". I think, it's not so much that it doesn't exist but that noone has bothered to have expanded their consciousness to include everything. In other words, if someone is one with everything, then trees falling would be part of that oneness, even though noone was really there.

Sure we can only really be aware of what we see, hear, touch or sense in some way. This is not an invatation to just let our awareness sit at a certain level. It's more to try to expand so the trees falling can be part of us.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

When ever I hear this "if a tree falls and noone is there to hear it, does it make a noise?". I think, it's not so much that it doesn't exist but that noone has bothered to have expanded their consciousness to include everything. In other words, if someone is one with everything, then trees falling would be part of that oneness, even though noone was really there.

Sure we can only really be aware of what we see, hear, touch or sense in some way. This is not an invatation to just let our awareness sit at a certain level. It's more to try to expand so the trees falling can be part of us.

If we forget about SR for the moment and look at life just as a day to day existance thing, then it's not very empowering (IMO) to consider everything that's going on outside of present moment awareness.

While it's nice to consider the beauty and wonderful things going on in the world outside of your awareness, most people focus on the tragedy and horror rather than the beauty.

The more we place ourselves outside of the moment, the more power we give up to control our moment.

Max

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Max Power

If we forget about SR for the moment and look at life just as a day to day existance thing, then it's not very empowering (IMO) to consider everything that's going on outside of present moment awareness.

While it's nice to consider the beauty and wonderful things going on in the world outside of your awareness, most people focus on the tragedy and horror rather than the beauty.

The more we place ourselves outside of the moment, the more power we give up to control our moment.

Max

Then are you saying that it is better to keep your sphere of awareness limited? Are you saying it is better to be like an ostrich with your head in the sand, and be happy about that level of exposure to surroundings? Isn't the whole point of living to figure out how to feel more connected? The way to feel more connected might be to imagine outside of our normal day to day awareness, otherwise we are ostriches with our head in the sand.

I know Steve wrote about not watching the news and that he thinks that is a good thing because then the bad stuff doesn't have to effect you directly. I think that is kind of irresponsible, actually. Let's all be monks in some isolated monistary then and be enlightened only about the garden in side the walls.

I do agree with the world awareness and the usual habitual focus people have.
"I saw the news today, oh boy[....]
He blew his mind out in a car
He didn't notice that the lights had changed
A crowd of people stood and stared"

So the issue is to be able to expand awareness and also drop judgements or be able to not label things as horrible or wonderful. This is what being in the moment is like. I'll add that the present moment awareness does expand your awareness, it may not give you news briefs but the connection to life is fuller, using more of the spectrum of how a human can be connected, as a spiritual being. I've come close and it's difficult because I'll feel the pain of the world, so I pull back and put my head in the sand again. I don't think that the pain I get is because I know there's a war somewhere because of news. There is a feeling that comes into me when I have expanded my sense of self to my sourroundings. But also the expansion goes beyond what our normal senses pick up, beyond my normal day to day sphere. It can become a oneness that includes everything from a spiritual perspective. The oneness like this doesn't make me aware of the tree falling in the woods, but it does contain some sort of feeling of trees falling.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

Then are you saying that it is better to keep your sphere of awareness limited? Are you saying it is better to be like an ostrich with your head in the sand, and be happy about that level of exposure to surroundings? Isn't the whole point of living to figure out how to feel more connected? The way to feel more connected might be to imagine outside of our normal day to day awareness, otherwise we are ostriches with our head in the sand.

I know Steve wrote about not watching the news and that he thinks that is a good thing because then the bad stuff doesn't have to effect you directly. I think that is kind of irresponsible, actually. Let's all be monks in some isolated monistary then and be enlightened only about the garden in side the walls.

I do agree with the world awareness and the usual habitual focus people have.
"I saw the news today, oh boy[....]
He blew his mind out in a car
He didn't notice that the lights had changed
A crowd of people stood and stared"

So the issue is to be able to expand awareness and also drop judgements or be able to not label things as horrible or wonderful. This is what being in the moment is like. I'll add that the present moment awareness does expand your awareness, it may not give you news briefs but the connection to life is fuller, using more of the spectrum of how a human can be connected, as a spiritual being. I've come close and it's difficult because I'll feel the pain of the world, so I pull back and put my head in the sand again. I don't think that the pain I get is because I know there's a war somewhere because of news. There is a feeling that comes into me when I have expanded my sense of self to my sourroundings. But also the expansion goes beyond what our normal senses pick up, beyond my normal day to day sphere. It can become a oneness that includes everything from a spiritual perspective. The oneness like this doesn't make me aware of the tree falling in the woods, but it does contain some sort of feeling of trees falling.

It's not about the world that may be out there, it's all about your world in here. Dense physical reality is full of everything in this moment in this container, consciousness. But the container is here right now and no where else. How can consciousness be off throughout the galaxy creating and maintaining everything and still here in this moment?...........it's not or at least I don't believe it is.

I consider that existance is inside a container of sorts and we, through conscious choice choose what's in that container, including the observation point (your human bean) to observe conscious creation.

The benefits of container theory are.........

Nothing outside of (your) container exists, so it doesn't matter.
You can choose what to place inside the container, like money, love, health, rain, pain, suffering, whatever.
Nothing can ever hurt you inside the container because you created everything inside.
You create and can therefore change anything inside, time, growth, people, environment, etc.

The container is consciousness, the container is you.

Max

[karlos768]

Max power this is the first time have seen this thread, and wow thank you.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by karlos768

Max power this is the first time have seen this thread, and wow thank you.

KA,

Your most welcome

Max

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Max Power

It's not about the world that may be out there, it's all about your world in here.

In here and out there are descriptions of some sort of boundary. Why is there a boundary? The world out there is also you, even you say that.

Dense physical reality is full of everything in this moment in this container, consciousness. But the container is here right now and no where else. How can consciousness be off throughout the galaxy creating and maintaining everything and still here in this moment?...........it's not or at least I don't believe it is.

Wait, what is consciousness again? A container? If consciousness is a fixed container with some sort of boundary, then consciousness is limited and not expandable. Do you believe that too? That consciousness can not expand to be one with everything? Why is it that we "know" there are galaxies if they are not part of creation, even though we don't regularly look at galaxies with our own eyes?

I consider that existance is inside a container of sorts and we, through conscious choice choose what's in that container, including the observation point (your human bean) to observe conscious creation.

Having a definition of existance that draws a line and makes a container implies there are parts of you that are outside this container. What are those parts outside of the container? Why are they "outside"? Why aren't those parts also you?

The benefits of container theory are.........

Nothing outside of (your) container exists, so it doesn't matter.

It might matter if you are able to raise your vibration or expand your consciousness and not have a container that draws a line somewhere, like at what your sense can pick up.

You can choose what to place inside the container, like money, love, health, rain, pain, suffering, whatever.
Nothing can ever hurt you inside the container because you created everything inside.

Then I'll choose to put what ever is "outside" this container into my container. But that's not very realistic I know. It's just the way I look at experience - that oneness or being in the now doesn't really have any boundary of "that is not me, this is me". I do like the idea that my experience is what ever I choose or chose and therfore I am safe.

You create and can therefore change anything inside, time, growth, people, environment, etc.

The container is consciousness, the container is you.

I do wonder how much we can therefore change from our thinking mind perspective. There's a realm of reality that we are in, that is bigger than what we think but is also us. It's from this bigger us that we influence what's going on around us, not our little mind ego. The thing about the bigger us, or Self or whatever label, is that it is oneness and is in the now and is expanded beyond our normal sensing. Not that I can do that kind of awareness on queue, myself.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by wolfgang

In here and out there are descriptions of some sort of boundary. Why is there a boundary? The world out there is also you, even you say that

I don't believe I've ever said there is a world out there..........and I don't see container theory as a limitation or boundry..........I see it as present moment awareness and nothing outside of that truly exists.

Is it helpful to think like this???.............You bet it is (for me) because I don't have to worry or care about anything outside my awareness, I don't have to play the blame and shame game. Nothing affects me unless I bring it into my consciousness, my present moment awareness.

Does that sound selfish??...........it's supposed to, but my real being (consciousness) is naturally selfish, it has to be, because that's all there is. This is not ego selfishness, this is loving caring selfishness. Every thing in my present moment awareness, especially people are wonderful, because they are me, it's amazing to see me in every different shape and form.

If people want to believe that consciousness is everywhere and everyone all over the galaxy, that's fine, but I don't buy it, for me that fractures my identity into parts that don't make much sense and from an avatar POV, it weakens my creative power.

How can I be consciousness, all over the galaxy creating and maintaining everything and then be right here building a individual reality...........I just don't believe that's how it works.

I've found the most emowering belief system for me and it works for me, people can believe what ever they wish.......as long as it's empowering, then it's all good.

Max

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I don't believe I've ever said there is a world out there..........and I don't see container theory as a limitation or boundry..........I see it as present moment awareness and nothing outside of that truly exists. Max

By definition a 'container' has boundaries because it is separating it's contents from something else. In your case, the unwillingness to acknowledge anything outside of what you want in your awareness. You seem to be making this stuff up as you go along.

If this type of picking and choosing is what you want in your container and it works in your reality, then good for you.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

By definition a 'container' has boundaries because it is separating it's contents from something else. .

While that's true, from a creation POV, it works, because you only have to be concerned with what's it your container. Many people struggle with problems they sense outside and that then infects their inside. Thinking of it as a container helps to localise creation and consideration.

In your case, the unwillingness to acknowledge anything outside of what you want in your awareness. You seem to be making this stuff up as you go along.

It's actualy about empowerment, if that means to accept all the crap going on in the world that hardly affects me, then yes, I'm unwilling to participate in things I can't control. I don't see any real problem, with taking ideas and making them suit oneself. If I'm making it up as I go along and it's empowering, then that's a good thing.

If this type of picking and choosing is what you want in your container and it works in your reality, then good for you.

Thanks, it does work really well, so I figure if it works for me, then it may help others, just like Steve shares his views, I share mine.

Max

[ZHereford]

All this just to say we can perceive what we want how we want!

My how we complicate things!

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by ZHereford

All this just to say we can perceive what we want how we want!

My how we complicate things!

Yep, just like every book, cd course, dvd and branded guru, it's all the same basic information.

People don't want simplicity....they don't sense worth through simplicity....only when it's complex do they feel worth.

Max

[wolfgang]

Originally Posted by Max Power

I don't believe I've ever said there is a world out there..........and I don't see container theory as a limitation or boundry..........I see it as present moment awareness and nothing outside of that truly exists.

Is it helpful to think like this???.............You bet it is (for me) because I don't have to worry or care about anything outside my awareness, I don't have to play the blame and shame game. Nothing affects me unless I bring it into my consciousness, my present moment awareness.

This sounds contradictorary. That you don't have to worry or care about anything "outside of you awareness" is a statement that there is something outside of your awareness that you aren't including but then you also say nothing outside of the present moment awareness truly exists.

Does that sound selfish??...........it's supposed to, but my real being (consciousness) is naturally selfish, it has to be, because that's all there is. This is not ego selfishness, this is loving caring selfishness. Every thing in my present moment awareness, especially people are wonderful, because they are me, it's amazing to see me in every different shape and form.

If people want to believe that consciousness is everywhere and everyone all over the galaxy, that's fine, but I don't buy it, for me that fractures my identity into parts that don't make much sense and from an avatar POV, it weakens my creative power.

If you are deny any part of what you know to exist, you are creating a facture in this way. To say your utlimate higher consciousness is not involved with everything is to deny what has been presented to you. It would be one thing to not know galazies exist, but you do know this. They are part of you as something in your awareness. Why would identifying with all that is in a spiritual way weaken your avatar or creative power?

How can I be consciousness, all over the galaxy creating and maintaining everything and then be right here building a individual reality...........I just don't believe that's how it works.

This is coming from a limited view point. Being in the present moment allows a connection that is involved with everything. It's not that our mind is having to do actual activites to maintain a galaxy. But our spiritual oneness is involved with everything. There is a particle that is our individual ego stuff and there's the wave or field of spiritual oneness that is everything. We are both at the same time.

I've found the most emowering belief system for me and it works for me, people can believe what ever they wish.......as long as it's empowering, then it's all good.

I glad you found a belief system that helps you. I just bounce off what you are saying, not trying to make you change anything you want to believe. In general I think any belief system can also be a hinderance, eventually. In other words, like you've said somewhere, it's about trying to simplify. One way to simplify is to not hold onto believing something is exactly a certain way.

However, I do also see a similar description of what my imediate environment is. That it's a neat reflection of me and in that case is included as a sense of self.