The Trouble with Now

[Iff]

Originally Posted by Ree

In the past I had a mental filing cabinet full of wrongs done to me by other people, things that made me angry or hurt my feelings or embarrassed me or that I felt were put in my way as obstacles to hinder my progress. I kept these files in meticulous order and cross referenced them and filed them numerically and alphabetically. I mean I WORKED HARD on this mental filing cabinet!

When I encountered someone, I could mentally open up a drawer and pull the file and review all the negative events of the past associated with that person. This created a filter through which I saw the person and affected my relationships greatly.

One of the first things I did when I began my journey into PD was to mentally empty that filing cabinet and shred every file. GONE. That's one way the past affects the present and it was entirely my creation. And I am here to tell you, what a relief it was to be rid of it!!!!

That should be read over and over again and memorised! People you encounter never let you down but act exactly the way you expect. If you "know" that this person is inconsiderate because of your recent encounters, he will continue to be one. But if you can approach an encounter with a clear mind, you will be pleasantly surprised.

Originally Posted by ming

I agree. If you don´t remember your past you won´t know how to talk, eat, relate, function. you won´t remember your address, relatives, colleagues. You will be in a vegetative state, in a coma or like a newborn.
[...]

You do know that there are two types of memory? That is a rather simplified approach to your argument, but nevertheless. I am not going to bother you with scientific terms, but one type is for remembering events and occurrences while the other is for remembering facts and details. With correctly aimed brain damage you can turn the former off, so all you have left is your address, relatives, colleagues; the knowledge how to talk, eat, relate, function. You no longer consciously perceive time and can't access past memories or plan the future the way you used to. You know you played basketball the day before but only as a fact - you don't actually remember you doing that.

So it is entirely possible to not remember your own past.

Originally Posted by Tam9

An example would be if you were physically abused and permanent scars were left on your being. As much as you'd like to put the memory of it in the past, the physical reminder would exist in the present. Regardless of the presence/absence of psychological pain or forgiveness etc., the physical pain would exist in the past, present and future.

There is no rule that says those scars equal the physical pain. If you are reminded of the pain because of the scars, it is only because you choose to be reminded. If you were to accept what happened and put it behind you, those scars need not be more of an issue for you than a birth mark. If you still insist on being reminded of the physical pain every time you notice the scars, you are just not there yet.



As this topic is clearly not of something that can be discussed in scientific terms that were previously agreed upon, I would like to ask all the participants not to be so literal with each other statements. In most philosophical or even psychological conversations there is always something left for interpretation.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

To call the past fantasy would suggest 'no relevance'. I agree that we have to let go of that past but that is different from denying it or saying it doesn't exist.

Tam9, fantasies (a kind of thought) have all kinds of relevance to what we experience right now. Tremendously so! I never said they didn't. But that doesn't mean that the events we fantasize about (whether or not they've happened in physical reality) exist, now. They don't.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

My point was that sometimes it's difficult to separate yourself from the past when there are physical reminders of it.

You're right, sometimes it is! Sometimes not. Which just goes to show you, it's a choice, not a requirement.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Iff

So it is entirely possible to not remember your own past.

Iff, very good, I was thinking it and you said it We only remember when we think of it, to give it thought and that's when it's created, right there in the moment.

You don't have a past, then when you remember something from it, BAM!.......... There's your past.

You actually create the past as you think it. If the future doesn't exist, who's to say the past did either???

Now that is a noodle baker

Max

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Iff

There is no rule that says those scars equal the physical pain.

For purposes of the point, let's say they were.

As this topic is clearly not of something that can be discussed in scientific terms that were previously agreed upon, I would like to ask all the participants not to be so literal with each other statements. In most philosophical or even psychological conversations there is always something left for interpretation.

There has to be some common ground and terminology for the purposes of discussion. Who will decide which points can be taken literally or not?

[Angela]

Even if there is real, current physical pain associated with the scar or injury, you are not required to maintain the emotional or psychic pain along with it. You're not even required to be reminded of the emotional pain, or to dwell on what caused it.

There are plenty of athletes who have lost limbs and experience physical pain, but choose thoughts that work better in their lives than being reminded of old emotional pain that doesn't serve them anymore. That is a choice they are making in each moment.

[Iff]

Originally Posted by Tam9

For purposes of the point, let's say they were.
[...]

I admit I might have misworded that. What I meant, was that you don't have to relive the pain each time you see that scar. You can choose not to. You don't have to define your existence through that pain... or past event, to be more specific. "You" in particular may not be able to, as may some others, but there are many who can, so it might still be a valid point.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Angela

That is a choice they are making in each moment.

Yep, AB, spot on! it's the old saying "it's not what happens, it's how we deal with it" but people find comfort in misery and suffering, it's often safe for them, because they don't have to do anything, just be a victim.

Max

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Max Power

...but people find comfort in misery and suffering, it's often safe for them, because they don't have to do anything, just be a victim.

yeah, I think also people get addicted to the those feelings, and blame, and anger, and righteous indignation. so the "comfort" we get is actually very uncomfortable. how frustrating that can be -- like trying to get to sleep on a hot mosquito night!

Have you seen that part in "What the Bleep Do We Know" where they talk about emotions as actual physically addictive chemicals? Interesting idea, even if it's just a metaphor.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Angela

yeah, I think also people get addicted to the those feelings, and blame, and anger, and righteous indignation. so the "comfort" we get is actually very uncomfortable. how frustrating that can be -- like trying to get to sleep on a hot mosquito night!

Have you seen that part in "What the Bleep Do We Know" where they talk about emotions as actual physically addictive chemicals? Interesting idea, even if it's just a metaphor.

People also compare themselves to their immediate surroundings, they see others suffering on the news, on the web, in their personal lives and accept that as normal or at least an acceptable way to exist.

Often also, the human bean gets all carried away with emotion, like it's candy and consciousness is just sitting there shaking it's head while avatar goes berserk.

That's why now is more important than anything, because it's everything and the only thing.

Max

[Iff]

Originally Posted by Angela

[...]
Have you seen that part in "What the Bleep Do We Know" where they talk about emotions as actual physically addictive chemicals? Interesting idea, even if it's just a metaphor.

Although not directed at me... this part was an eye-opener. I had thought before that I might be a bit addicted to some emotions but this had me sit down and really think it over. I think most people don't ever realise that... every single one of us is addicted to something, and it just might not be as simple as tobacco or alcohol.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Iff

Although not directed at me... this part was an eye-opener. I had thought before that I might be a bit addicted to some emotions but this had me sit down and really think it over. I think most people don't ever realise that... every single one of us is addicted to something, and it just might not be as simple as tobacco or alcohol.

I'm becoming addicted to consciousness The more I identify with it, problems just slip away and the clarity is a little unnerving, but all the crud just evaporates and the path is more clear.

Addiction is probably the wrong word, more of self realisation.

Max

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Max Power

People also compare themselves to their immediate surroundings, they see others suffering on the news, on the web, in their personal lives and accept that as normal or at least an acceptable way to exist.

I agree. I think that's part of why I might be seen as less than compassionate sometimes -- I don't like to cosset these deeply ingrained cultural entitlements to suffering. I don't think it does anyone any favors to encourage them to fall in love with their pain. Also maybe because I'm a mean bitch.

@Iff ... me, too! Sometimes I can feel the bad chemicals pouring into my bloodstream (so to speak) and when I ask myself if I want to let go of my painful emotion, I realize I don't! Danger Man is really good at dealing with my chemicals -- he'll give me the freedom to indulge myself in them, and at the same time he'll let me know that I'm not doing anything good for our relationship when I do. argh.

[Iff]

Originally Posted by Angela

I agree. I think that's part of why I might be seen as less than compassionate sometimes -- I don't like to cosset these deeply ingrained cultural entitlements to suffering. I don't think it does anyone any favors to encourage them to fall in love with their pain. Also maybe because I'm a mean bitch.
[...]

No, I pretty much think its the former. As there was a thread around here somewhere about this - there is no point in actively seeking depressive events. Something happens, you accept it, you learn from it, you move on. It is rather ridiculous to dwell in the suffering of others. Especially the ones you have never heard of. (Yes, I know that no human being is better than the other, but using the world view of an average person you care more about those close to you.)

Oh, and we just might be getting a little offtopic here.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Angela

I agree. I think that's part of why I might be seen as less than compassionate sometimes -- I don't like to cosset these deeply ingrained cultural entitlements to suffering. I don't think it does anyone any favors to encourage them to fall in love with their pain. Also maybe because I'm a mean bitch.

AB, You a MB?? Never I won't have that, you're too cool to be hard Focused individuals are always frowned upon. Like very successful people are often considered arrogant, but they're not, they're just very focused.

Max

[ZHereford]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Yep, AB, spot on! it's the old saying "it's not what happens, it's how we deal with it" but people find comfort in misery and suffering, it's often safe for them, because they don't have to do anything, just be a victim. Max

As I understand these posts, it's not an argument about how you deal with what happened in the past but whether the past or future exist.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Iff

No, I pretty much think its the former. As there was a thread around here somewhere about this - there is no point in actively seeking depressive events. Something happens, you accept it, you learn from it, you move on. It is rather ridiculous to dwell in the suffering of others. Especially the ones you have never heard of. (Yes, I know that no human being is better than the other, but using the world view of an average person you care more about those close to you.)

Oh, and we just might be getting a little offtopic here.

As long as we keep the topic in the now, then there's no problem

Back to the Trouble with Now............when something bad in the world happens, it enters our now, so now we have to emote about it to justify our emotive state, human bean. The closer to home, the more intense the emotive state or reaction

As long as we are in the moment as human beans, then through conscious choice we have an option to decide how that event is handled. We can cry, feel pain, quiet acceptable emotions, but then we must stop and ask some conscious questions about what to envoke next.

As a conscious being only ever existing in the moment, it's that moment of conscious choice that defines our world. Have you ever had something go bad and you get very emotional about it? But if someone is there to ease that emotion, it's so much easier to bear right? Why?........because consciousness is it's own best friend.

You don't actually need another person to comfort you, it's nice sure, but if you on your own, you're never alone, for you true self is always there to guide and protect you. Consciousness is the real you, but you can look at it as if it's a very caring best friend who will never leave you. It cares so much about you it will do whatever it takes to make you happy.

What is the best feeling in the world?........Love. Why?............because consciousness (you) care very deeply for yourself and when you create someone else to reflect that love, you are witnessing it close up.

That really is the whole point of now and other people, to love yourself as much as possible right now. To see and feel it in the phyical present moment. We can love ourselves without others around, all we have to do is look to our present moment and witness our own creation, because consciousness isn't just you creating other people, it's you creating everything in your present moment awareness.

You creating everything right now.

max

[cylon]

Things are sure "speeding up" for me. I've been thinking about this, how everything exists in the present moment. Seems the more I do this, the quicker things happen, like I'll be thinking someting in the morning and a few hours later (if that) I'll see some sort of reflection, someone will be having a conversation about the exact thing I've been thinking of, maybe I'll overhear it, or maybe they will just start talking to me and then they'll bring up the topic "out of the blue".

I'm not sure if there's an actual meaning to these individual synchronicities in themselves, or if they are part of a larger pattern.

For instance, you may be thinking "Wow, I really think dolphins are neat. They can even communicate with us with language and stuff"... then you'll turn on the radio, and they will be talking about dolphins. (This hasn't actually happened, but things like it have.) Does that actually MEAN something?

The world looks much more different to me now, than it did just a week or so ago before I was posting here more regularly. It still trips me out a little but I'm just going with it, and it feels good.

[Iff]

Originally Posted by cylon

[...]
For instance, you may be thinking "Wow, I really think dolphins are neat. They can even communicate with us with language and stuff"... then you'll turn on the radio, and they will be talking about dolphins. (This hasn't actually happened, but things like it have.) Does that actually MEAN something?

The world looks much more different to me now, than it did just a week or so ago before I was posting here more regularly. It still trips me out a little but I'm just going with it, and it feels good.

That definitely means something - you are starting to believe it! Well, creepy exclamations aside, you are getting better and better at manifesting. Some people will never believe it because they either can't or don't want to look for the signs, but it looks like you are getting these by the handful. Next thing you know you'll be manifesting money out of thin air or meeting new and interesting people hours after thinking you should widen your social circle.

Or it might mean you are just discovering telepathy. But that's not bad either.

By the way, if someone thinks I am going on a posting spree, relax, I am. Just that I'm in an unusually good mood right now and I want to spread it a little.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Iff

That definitely means something - you are starting to believe it! Well, creepy exclamations aside, you are getting better and better at manifesting. Some people will never believe it because they either can't or don't want to look for the signs, but it looks like you are getting these by the handful. Next thing you know you'll be manifesting money out of thin air or meeting new and interesting people hours after thinking you should widen your social circle.

Or it might mean you are just discovering telepathy. But that's not bad either.

By the way, if someone thinks I am going on a posting spree, relax, I am. Just that I'm in an unusually good mood right now and I want to spread it a little.

Lol, thanks for the post. I could go on and on about how many things I'm thinking of are reflected back to me... and how I'm becoming more aware of... just about everything...and how fast. It's like I've entered a completely different world, strange, alien, but pretty cool too. Oh yeah, and FUN!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Lol, thanks for the post. I could go on and on about how many things I'm thinking of are reflected back to me... and how I'm becoming more aware of... just about everything...and how fast. It's like I've entered a completely different world, strange, alien, but pretty cool too. Oh yeah, and FUN!

Cylon, why don't you start a new thread and tell us about what you're experiencing? I'd love to hear about it.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Tam9

An example would be if you were physically abused and permanent scars were left on your being. As much as you'd like to put the memory of it in the past, the physical reminder would exist in the present. Regardless of the presence/absence of psychological pain or forgiveness etc., the physical pain would exist in the past, present and future.

Tam, I just wanted to respond even though I think everyone else has pretty much said what I would say.

I think the physical pain being ongoing is different from emotional pain. If I were horribly abused in childhood to the point where I have lasting symptoms of ongoing physical pain, I would still be in pain and it may remind me of what happened in the past. However, I would not have to dwell on the emotional ramifications of that, merely try to manage the pain now. I am not sure anyone is talking about physical pain not existing simply because it was caused in the past. I think the main point is that emotional pain/continued grief over the past is unnecessary and hinders the moment we are living in as we speak.

@ Ree - Thank you for that very vivid reminder. I too had a huge filing cabinet (probably more like a whole room full of filing cabinets). I am in the process of throwing all that crap out into the dump where it belongs!

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I think the main point is that emotional pain/continued grief over the past is unnecessary and hinders the moment we are living in as we speak.

The point was never how you experienced emotional/physical pain of the past and you should get over it. The point was and is 'the past exists and there are continuous reminders of it in the present'! Why is everyone going on about you don't have to dwell on it? This was never the issue. What I had issue with was that the past is a fantasy. I tried to point out that it is not.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

The point was never how you experienced emotional/physical pain of the past and you should get over it. The point was and is 'the past exists and there are continuous reminders of it in the present'! Why is everyone going on about you don't have to dwell on it? This was never the issue. What I had issue with was that the past is a fantasy. I tried to point out that it is not.

Tam9, you brought up the whole emotional/physical pain connection as a way of illustrating your objection to the idea that the past and future are fantasy, so discussion of it is directly on track with your point.

You don't like the word fantasy, and what I'm saying doesn't require that word, so I will just say to you:

The past and the future do not exist. Events have occurred, and hopefully will occur, but at this moment the events and the time "container" in which they did or will occur do not exist. All we have, all we ever had, and all we will ever have, is Now.

So, there you go.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Sorry for the misunderstanding.

The continuous reminders are in your thought, you thinking about the past is what reminds you of it. In that sense, it is a fantasy. It is not happening now.

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

Tam9, you brought up the whole emotional/physical pain connection as a way of illustrating your objection to the idea that the past and future are fantasy, so discussion of it is directly on track with your point.

I brought it up as an illustration that the past can still exist in the present not as an offshoot to discuss getting over emotional pain of the past. Two different points.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

I brought it up as an illustration that the past can still exist in the present not as an offshoot to discuss getting over emotional pain of the past. Two different points.

Well, from my point of view, what you call two different points are two sides of the same coin, and part of the same point.

You believe that the past can still exist in the present (which implies that it doesn't have to live in the present, by the way.). I believe that the past does not exist in the present, but that people pretend that it does by reliving, dwelling on, holding onto the pain from, and otherwise frantically clutching the emotions they felt during events that happened.

What you say is the past existing in your present, I say is not the past at all -- it is merely old pain that you nurture and keep alive.

p.s. I don't advocate "getting over" old pain. I recommend acknowledging it and then letting it go. Sometimes that takes practice, because we hold onto old pain so tightly that our knuckles get white and holding onto it becomes habitual. But if you give yourself permission, surrender old pain and it can be gone *poof* -- just like Kaiser Soze.

[cylon]

Originally Posted by Angela

Cylon, why don't you start a new thread and tell us about what you're experiencing? I'd love to hear about it.

Thanks, maybe I'll end up doing that. Right now it seems more comfortable for me to speak about it in a general way... because I'm still a LITTLE weirded out by this. I still feel like I'm dreaming.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by cylon

Thanks, maybe I'll end up doing that. Right now it seems more comfortable for me to speak about it in a general way... because I'm still a LITTLE weirded out by this. I still feel like I'm dreaming.

Sometimes writing it down can help you "hear" yourself more clearly and see connections that are more nebulous when they're just floating around in your head. I hope you are keeping a journal -- I'll bet you'll find it valuable later (*in the future, which doesn't exist now. )

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, from my point of view, what you call two different points are two sides of the same coin, and part of the same point. .

For me they are not the same point:

Point 1 - the past can exist in the present through reminders of events (painful or pleasureful) and often through physical evidence - a scar, a lost arm. It is not a fantasy or figment of the imagination.

Point 2 - Your reaction to the past events (always your choice), painful or pleasureful.

An event and your reaction to the event are not the same. They are 2 distinct happenings.

My only point ever was that the past is not a fantasy or non-event. It has bearing and influence on the present whether it's good, bad or indifferent. How a person chooses to referrence it is not the issue. That's a separate point.