The Trouble with Now

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

But the past and the future are pure fantasy --

What do you mean by 'fantasy'?

If you merely mean thoughts, then you have to be specific because not all thoughts are based on past events. Some really are fantasy as in, never having manifested - purley imagination.

[ming]

Originally Posted by Tam9

I mean that to call it 'fantasy' implies that your past never existed. Denying the past and not being aware of the future is not necessarily a good thing. It can be good or not. It's how you apply it to your present life that counts. People with Alzeimers disease have no past or future and they find it painful to function daily. They are disoriented and lost.

I agree. If you don´t remember your past you won´t know how to talk, eat, relate, function. you won´t remember your address, relatives, colleagues. You will be in a vegetative state, in a coma or like a newborn.

-Animals, children and some mentally ill don´t relate to time. Does it make them enlightened creatures?

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by ming

I agree. If you don´t remember your past you won´t know how to talk, eat, relate, function. you won´t remember your address, relatives, colleagues. You will be in a vegetative state, in a coma or like a newborn.

-Animals, children and some mentally ill don´t relate to time. Does it make them enlightened creatures?

Exactly, there has to be some point of referrence or you will be lost!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

What do you mean by 'fantasy'?

If you merely mean thoughts, then you have to be specific because not all thoughts are based on past events. Some really are fantasy as in, never having manifested - purley imagination.

I mean by fantasy = the past and the future do not exist except as thought. That's all they are. Just thought.

Again, things have happened. And sure, remembering and evaluating those things is very useful! Planning is useful, too. But remembering and evaluating and planning are happening RIGHT NOW, and RIGHT NOW is all you've got. Events have "really" happened in the real world, but "the past" and "the future" do not exist, except as -- yes, "purely imagination."

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

I mean by fantasy = the past and the future do not exist except as thought. That's all they are. Just thought.

I guess this is a question of semantics. I'll go along with the dictionary versions of fantasy and thought. It makes it easier to communicate.

fantasy - a mental image, esp. when unreal or fantastic;

thought - to have a conscious mind, to some extent of reasoning, remembering experiences, making rational decisions, etc.

[Angela]

Well, it seems like it's a question of semantics, but it has real world applications, because many people live their lives as if the past and future were real -- in the dictionary sense!

For instance, you are age 7, you break your dad's special train set, he yells that you're an idiot, and that you ruin everything. He's your dad; you believe him. You internalize: I'm an idiot, and I ruin everything. Now, you're 30 years old and you're wondering: why can't I get a good job? why is my marriage so screwed up? You have packed up the memory of this event that happened 23 years ago and pretend that it's "real" -- you are an idiot and you ruin everything. The past is nothing but a thought that you are carrying around as if it were real here in the moment.

I have a friend who was told by little playmate in the third grade that she had ugly arms. To this day (she's now 50) she will absolutely not wear anything sleeveless. Although I've told her often that her arms are normal, beautiful even, she insists that her ugly arms are "real"; she knows, because someone told her that at age 8.

Likewise, people often act like the future is "real" -- someday I will be rich! so for now I'll continue to wrack up credit card charges. Someday my prince will come! So, you, my decidedly common boyfriend, have to hit the road. I will take my dream trip to Zanzibar when I retire! Oops, got hit by a bus, there goes my dream trip to Zanzibar.

You hope and wish and plan for the future, and you remember and evaluate and worry and try to hold onto the past, but they do not exist. All you have is now.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

The past is a mental image. It is not tangibly experiencable now. It doesn't mean it never happened. I think the idea is not to dwell on it so much that you are missing the present, tangible moment in which you are living. You don't forget everything that ever happened, you simply don't let it weigh on you and dictate all your present actions.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

The past is a mental image. It is not tangibly experiencable now. It doesn't mean it never happened. I think the idea is not to dwell on it so much that you are missing the present, tangible moment in which you are living. You don't forget everything that ever happened, you simply don't let it weigh on you and dictate all your present actions.

Right on, Aspiring! Most people are not even conscious that what already happened and what might happen someday is running their lives, and that they have no freedom. And all it is is thoughts!

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I should have also said it's not tangibly experiencable now unless you keep reliving it in your mind over and over. That pain is real, but it's of your own making. Wouldn't it be nicer to just live now where everything is fine and you have all you need?

[Angela]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Wouldn't it be nicer to just live now where everything is fine and you have all you need?

Listen to you, woman!! It seems like you have undergone a huge personal transformation! You are so radiant with peace, joy and love. I am really just in awe of you!

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

Well, it seems like it's a question of semantics, but it has real world applications, because many people live their lives as if the past and future were real -- in the dictionary sense! .

Very true!

For instance, you are age 7, you break your dad's special train set, he yells that you're an idiot, and that you ruin everything. He's your dad; you believe him. You internalize: I'm an idiot, and I ruin everything. Now, you're 30 years old and you're wondering: why can't I get a good job? why is my marriage so screwed up? You have packed up the memory of this event that happened 23 years ago and pretend that it's "real" -- you are an idiot and you ruin everything. The past is nothing but a thought that you are carrying around as if it were real here in the moment.

I have a friend who was told by little playmate in the third grade that she had ugly arms. To this day (she's now 50) she will absolutely not wear anything sleeveless. Although I've told her often that her arms are normal, beautiful even, she insists that her ugly arms are "real"; she knows, because someone told her that at age 8. .

Cases, no doubt, where the past is very painful and difficult to reconcile with, however, denying it and not dealing with it doesn't make it go away. Very serious psychological repercusions can come about if you act as if this was fantasy. To shove this under the carpet and pretend it never happened can result in pathological problems. How do you think the Jeffrey Dahmers and Charles Mansons of this world came about? To dismiss the past as fantasy when it's horrific and painful, if it's not dealth with, is irresponsible.
It may be easy to tell someone that the past is fantasy but what about the psychological implications?
I daresay, not so easy.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

I don't think the advice is to deny the past and avoid dealing with it. It's to realize that it is in fact the past and you can choose whether or not to keep reliving it in the present. I for one would rather not. Some of that stuff sucked. It was painful. But right now in this moment...that's another story. No one is lying to me or calling me names or neglecting me. Those things may have happened to me before, but I choose to continually punish myself with them if I live in the past rather than the present.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Angela

Listen to you, woman!! It seems like you have undergone a huge personal transformation! You are so radiant with peace, joy and love. I am really just in awe of you!

You had a big part in that which I truly appreciate.

I like being peaceful, joyful and full of love more than not. I think I'll keep it.

The past cannot hurt me and the future is undecided. Right now, I am always fine. And right now, and right now...

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

I don't think the advice is to deny the past and avoid dealing with it. It's to realize that it is in fact the past and you can choose whether or not to keep reliving it in the present.

This is quite different from saying it was fantasy.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

That's just the word used to describe it (going back to semantics). I am fairly sure it's the same thing Angela meant. Though I will stand corrected with apologies if not. No need to deny that the past happened. Also, no need to keep running the image, the feelings and the questions over in your mind in all your present moments. Does that really seem any healthier than stuffing it?

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Also, no need to keep running the image, the feelings and the questions over in your mind in all your present moments. Does that really seem any healthier than stuffing it?

What if it's so painful, you have no choice? What if it eats away at your being? Do you really think it's that simple? Wouldn't it be great if you could just tuck things away and dismiss them as fantasy!

[Angela]

Hey, Tam9, I've said it before (a few times!) and I'll say it again: events have occurred. I'm not in favor of denying that things that happened, happened. I agree with you that it would be a very good idea to accept events and especially, what we make events mean, remember and evaluate what needs to be remembered and evaluated. If you "forget" traumatic events, you still carry them with you into your current moment, and they can run your life without you realizing it -- just like the people you mentioned. I do not advocate trying to "forget."

If you still have a traumatic event making your decisions for you, I think it's important to "deal with it" -- and the most important part of that, I believe, is accepting that it happened. There's no real freedom in the current moment without acceptance of what's real -- and again, I'm saying events are real, it's the past that is all thought. Something else is happening right here, right now, and that is real. If it is not happening right here, right now, then the only way it exists is in the realm of thought. And one way that takes "fantasy" shape is: "that did not happen! that should not have happened! I'm not going to ever let that happen again!"

That's what I call sweeping things under the rug. The event happened, but what is real in this moment is what you make that event mean, over and over again, till you die. You can't change the event (Max probably disagrees!) but you can change what you make the event mean -- you can change your thoughts about the event.

Acting as if past events were real here and now -- that is fantasy living (like Daumer and Manson). Accepting that events happened, and that you are making them mean something now, and that you're free to think different thoughts if you choose to, THAT gives you the freedom to live boldly in the current moment. It really is easy!

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

Hey, Tam9, I've said it before (a few times!) and I'll say it again: events have occurred.

I believe you said everything else but now is fantasy. But that's ok, this post makes more sense.

Originally Posted by Angela

Because it's all you've got, and it's all you'll ever have. Everything else is just a fantasy.

[{aspiring_to_clarity}]

Originally Posted by Tam9

What if it's so painful, you have no choice? What if it eats away at your being? Do you really think it's that simple? Wouldn't it be great if you could just tuck things away and dismiss them as fantasy!

Maybe you could give me an example of a time when you have no choice?

I am coming to believe that you always have a choice. And again I am not suggesting you tuck things away and dismiss them as fantasy (ETA: there's that word again...I think that's really why this is so hard). Merely that you don't keep beating yourself over the head with them every moment rather than living the life in front of you now.

When I tell myself that something shouldn't have happened to me and I allow myself to feel pain right now for it I am giving that past actual event power over my life. I would prefer to take from it whatever valuable lesson I can and leave everything else in the past where it belongs. All that pain and misery can stay with the event in the past where it has no power to affect me in the present.

[Angela]

Right. Those events that occurred do not exist now, only the thoughts we have about them. (memories, evaluations, "dealing with it", the meaning we made about about it, the stories we tell ourselves and others about it).

[Max Power]

Here's the real problem with the past...........it sucks up too much of the present. Regretting it, dealing with it, fearing it will repeat itself. Everytime you have a thought about the past (or future) that is a thought you can't have about the present.

So you end up with most of your thoughts trying to understand what you've done and where you're going and the whole time you only ever exisitng in the now, the right now and you're neglecting it, so the thoughts you have of the past (or fears of the future) actually build the present right now.

The past never exists unless you think of it in the present, right now, same with the future. You only ever have power in this present moment, that's it and that's all there is.

Max

[Ree]

In the past I had a mental filing cabinet full of wrongs done to me by other people, things that made me angry or hurt my feelings or embarrassed me or that I felt were put in my way as obstacles to hinder my progress. I kept these files in meticulous order and cross referenced them and filed them numerically and alphabetically. I mean I WORKED HARD on this mental filing cabinet!

When I encountered someone, I could mentally open up a drawer and pull the file and review all the negative events of the past associated with that person. This created a filter through which I saw the person and affected my relationships greatly.

One of the first things I did when I began my journey into PD was to mentally empty that filing cabinet and shred every file. GONE. That's one way the past affects the present and it was entirely my creation. And I am here to tell you, what a relief it was to be rid of it!!!!

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Ree

In the past I had a mental filing cabinet full of wrongs done to me by other people, things that made me angry or hurt my feelings or embarrassed me or that I felt were put in my way as obstacles to hinder my progress. I kept these files in meticulous order and cross referenced them and filed them numerically and alphabetically. I mean I WORKED HARD on this mental filing cabinet!

That is a hilarious way to put it, Ree! It's amazing how we fall in love with and nurture our pain, when we could be falling in love with our lives and nurturing joy and gratitude. I'm going to keep that filing cabinet in mind and envision it if/when I'm alert enough to catch myself grumbling over my old files!

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Max Power

Here's the real problem with the past...........it sucks up too much of the present. Regretting it, dealing with it, fearing it will repeat itself. Everytime you have a thought about the past (or future) that is a thought you can't have about the present.

The past never exists unless you think of it in the present, right now, same with the future. You only ever have power in this present moment, that's it and that's all there is. Max

What you say is absolutely true in a certain context, but no one is addressing the fact that the past has relevance in the present. Take the Alzheimers patient. Without a point of referrence we would be disoriented and directionless. And as ming pointed out:

I agree. If you don´t remember your past you won´t know how to talk, eat, relate, function. you won´t remember your address, relatives, colleagues. You will be in a vegetative state, in a coma or like a newborn.

-Animals, children and some mentally ill don´t relate to time. Does it make them enlightened creatures?

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by {aspiring_to_clarity}

Maybe you could give me an example of a time when you have no choice?

An example would be if you were physically abused and permanent scars were left on your being. As much as you'd like to put the memory of it in the past, the physical reminder would exist in the present. Regardless of the presence/absence of psychological pain or forgiveness etc., the physical pain would exist in the past, present and future.

[Angela]

Originally Posted by Tam9

An example would be if you were physically abused and permanent scars were left on your being. As much as you'd like to put the memory of it in the past, the physical reminder would exist in the present. Regardless of the presence/absence of psychological pain or forgiveness etc., the physical pain would exist in the past, present and future.

That's a great example! If I am now experiencing the physical pain from an injury sustained by, let's say, political torture or my brother stepping on my foot when I was five, that doesn't mean I have to choose to continue to feel the emotional pain I experienced in kindergarten or prison.

Once the event is over, the physical pain is still real, but the emotional pain is elective. The physical pain only has to remind you of the originating event or the ensuing emotional pain if you insist that it does. This is not a matter of sweeping memories under the rug; it's a matter of taking with you what you need, and leaving the rest where it belongs.

That does not mean I can't remember and evaluate the pain and use what I glean to avoid getting stepped on or electrocuted again! No one here has said that events we've experienced have no relevance to the moment we're currently living.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Tam9

An example would be if you were physically abused and permanent scars were left on your being. As much as you'd like to put the memory of it in the past, the physical reminder would exist in the present. Regardless of the presence/absence of psychological pain or forgiveness etc., the physical pain would exist in the past, present and future.

T9,

The issue isn't something happening to you, it's why did you manifest it. We can never see past the choices we don't understand. If you arm gets cut off, you have no arm, so while your arm was cut off in the past, today you have no arm. The trick is to understand why you created having no arm, not focusing on having no arm.

Why did you manifest no arm? Not, AHHHHH!!!!! my arms gone. Yes it's not very nice that your arm has gone, but it aint coming back, so we have to understand why we created the situation of having no arm.

Can you see where this is going??.................The past is full of regret and regret is very unempowering. This is why the past cannot help us live today. Back to being armless..........your arm is gone and it's very upsetting, but to stay in upsetting mode is too continue living in the past, you take the past, the horror of having no arm and transplant it into every present moment and it *bleeps* every moment until you accept what you've created and move on to a place where having no arm is going to be a good thing, like only one hand to wash

People are conditioned to endure pain as long as possible, it's a way to accept denial and the past is really good at this because if something bad happens then we can (by choice) live it over and over again, reinflicting the pain and finding comfort in the pain, so we can't move out of pain because we are so comfortable in it.

Unless you've left this world, no matter what happens, there is something good left in you, something good inside still glowing, still with eternal power and choice possibility and the only way to ever find that and enjoy it, is to exist in the moment, right now.

Max

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Angela

No one here has said that events we've experienced have no relevance to the moment we're currently living.

To call the past fantasy would suggest 'no relevance'. I agree that we have to let go of that past but that is different from denying it or saying it doesn't exist.

[Max Power]

Originally Posted by Tam9

To call the past fantasy would suggest 'no relevance'. I agree that we have to let go of that past but that is different from denying it or saying it doesn't exist.

The past and the future are projections you're creating right now. How can anything that happened in the past matter, unless you think of it right now?

It can't and it doesn't.

Someone's past is only something when they remember it and to remember is to think and to think is to create.

As you think (choose) you create.

Observation is creation and that includes the past also.

Max

[Tam9]

Originally Posted by Max Power

The issue isn't something happening to you, it's why did you manifest it.

I thought the issue was - there is no past or future, just the present.

My point was that sometimes it's difficult to separate yourself from the past when there are physical reminders of it. This isn't an issue about manifestation, forgiveness or no arms.

Someone's past is only something when they remember it and to remember is to think and to think is to create.

Not if you're physically disabled because of it. The reminder is right there in the present!